If I am reading the Friday's blog correctly it looks like crafting magic items can be done by anyone. though we still don't know enough about it yet.
I like the idea that a bard could create magical musical instrument, fighter a magic sword and/or armor, etc.
The idea of monks creating ki infused magical items sounds interesting as well.
I agree, I like that anyone can make magic items. At least besides scrolls and wands, spellcasters are still required for those. And I agree, that makes sense.
I've always like crafting elements in games, but in 3.0/3.5 and then Pathfinder (which is just a continuation of 3.5 rules), crafting (mundane items) was really something not viable for adventuring PCs. I hope that is something they fix in P2e. I understand you shouldn't be able to crank out multiple sets of high quality armor/weapons in a week, but I don't see anything unreasonable with taking a month off to craft adamantium full plate, instead of the years it would take in the current rules.
I really hope they put a lot of thought into crafting and we even see a dedicated blog on it.
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The Craft skill / system in general would be served by having DC and time based on Size, Complexity and Quality of the object, rather than its price.
So a suit of armor of Masterwork quality would take more time than a Sword of Masterwork quality (because it's bigger) but less than a basic yacht (which is lower quality but bigger and more complex).
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hope they make it so that crafting is not cheaper than market price. The way it was done in Starfinder was fine, but would be more interesting here if they get rid of "Hamlet's high magic store".
It is time to end the tyranny of Wizards that laugh at WBL guidelines!! Crafting should be used to get access to some rare items in the first place, not to get double the amount of them as well.
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hope they make it so that crafting is not cheaper than market price. The way it was done in Starfinder was fine, but would be more interesting here if they get rid of "Hamlet's high magic store".
It is time to end the tyranny of Wizards that laugh at WBL guidelines!! Crafting should be used to get access to some rare items in the first place, not to get double the amount of them as well.
I have mixed feelings. It makes sense that you can't craft cheaper in Starfinder, because an individual craftsman can't compete with the economy of scale of factories in an industrialized trade based society. But in more primitive setting... Hm.
Maybe just make it so you get a 20% discount when you make it yourself. Markup for sale really doesn't need to be the entire cost of making the item.
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I think that whether a discount for crafting is appropriate and how much depends on how difficult it is for characters to purchase specific items, on how much of an investment is required to craft magic items, and on how many limitations exist on the kinds of items you can craft.
Having wizards take Craft Wondrous Item and use Spellcraft (which they would invest in anyway) to make headbands, amulets, belts cloaks, gloves, boots, etc. is a low of power for not a lot of investment.
The blog mentions that magic item crafting is tied to your rank in the Craft skill. If this means that you are required to invest in a specific form of crafting, and not the versatile Spellcraft skill, then it could mean a bigger investment in skills paired with a more limited variety of items (eg, Clothing might make headbands, cloaks, and gloves, but not amulets, belts, and boots). The investment/versatility payoff is why Master Craftsman isn't a great feat for martials in the same way that Craft Wondrous Item is a great feat for wizards.
The investment for crafting also gets higher if the Downtime system gives you a wider variety of valuable things to do with downtime other than crafting.
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hope they make it so that crafting is not cheaper than market price. The way it was done in Starfinder was fine, but would be more interesting here if they get rid of "Hamlet's high magic store".
It is time to end the tyranny of Wizards that laugh at WBL guidelines!! Crafting should be used to get access to some rare items in the first place, not to get double the amount of them as well.
I have mixed feelings. It makes sense that you can't craft cheaper in Starfinder, because an individual craftsman can't compete with the economy of scale of factories in an industrialized trade based society. But in more primitive setting... Hm.
Maybe just make it so you get a 20% discount when you make it yourself. Markup for sale really doesn't need to be the entire cost of making the item.
Yet another reason they should go for dynamic crafting. It starts at 85 percent, but it can get lower if you have the right skills and some luck, or higher if your luck isn't so great. I think one of my players even ended up paying more then full price for an item early on in our current campaign(and possibly also makes it so their voice is one octave higher while wearing the item). Of course this only really applies to magic crafting.
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hope they make it so that crafting is not cheaper than market price. The way it was done in Starfinder was fine, but would be more interesting here if they get rid of "Hamlet's high magic store".
It is time to end the tyranny of Wizards that laugh at WBL guidelines!! Crafting should be used to get access to some rare items in the first place, not to get double the amount of them as well.
I absolutely hate WBL, so I hope that it goes and dies in a fire as a balancing mechanic. Also, since it looks like anyone can craft now, it seems that it's not a caster/non-caster issue anymore.
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WBL is a guideline and should remain so. Some will exceed it and some will fall behind it. Society balance where a character floats between groups will be different from home groups where the resources may be shared to a degree.
Power by level is a guideline, but we may refer to abstractions of "optimization," we don't force players to meet precise levels of optimization.
In same vein, WBL should be a rough guideline without becoming a weight around the group's necks.
I am curious how it will be done in 2e though as long as they don't go old school with it costing XP instead of GP.
Instead of using WBL, there should be some kind of a new and improved formula that modifies your ECL based on which items you wield + how they synergize with your class features (including feats, skills, and spells).
Base CR for enemies should be based on versus a no-item party for ease of GMs' easy management.
For crafting, while I don't have a clue on how to balance magic item prices, I fervently wish they got the mundane economy in-game right this time.
If magic item creation is going to get forced egalitarianism, I'd like to see the following:
1. Still cost something to be able to craft. A feat might be too steep, but skill ranks and a chance of something going bad. Not full failure, but perhaps if you do a check, and your roll is less than required, the item costs more to make. Maybe require a mundane (smith, jeweler, tailor) skill as well as the magic one (?Artificer?)
2. There needs to be a benefit to crafting your own stuff. If generally people want crafting to not be a moneymaker, make the items better. And not in the way Starfinder does it (with just more durability). An example would be a random table that you roll on if you exceed the creation DC by a certain amount imparting additional abilities to your item. These would not be reflected in the sale price of the item, but make it more useful.
3. Don't abandon all logic for the forced egalitarianism. Sorry, a fighter NEEDS some kind of outside help to craft a magic sword. All stop. That outside help can be made in such a way to be as equal as possible (e.g. a fighter crafting a magic sword in a town of 3000+ people can find someone to help him that keeps the cost the same as the Wizard doing it in the same town, but a fighter locked in a forge by himself cannot make a magic sword. A wizard who can forge a sword can).
Example: Ikaika the Fighter wants to create a magic sword. He travels to Lihu'e to find a forge and magic user to help him. He's making a +1 longsword, which costs X in materials and services. This results in a DC of 29 (Combined from Artificer and Smith) for him to craft the sword. He rolls a 15 on his smithy check, while the wizard he hired gets a 20 resulting in a 35.
Since this exceeds the DC by over 10, he rolls on a random table and his +1 longsword now imparts 5 flame resistance to the wielder. Neato.
Had he hit the DC but not exceeded it by 10 or more, his item would be a normal +1 longsword.
Had he not met his DC by less than 5, his item would cost 10% more to craft or roll on a drawback table.
Had he not met his DC by over 10, roll a drawback.
etc.
If magic item creation is going to get forced egalitarianism, I'd like to see the following:
1. Still cost something to be able to craft. A feat might be too steep, but skill ranks and a chance of something going bad. Not full failure, but perhaps if you do a check, and your roll is less than required, the item costs more to make. Maybe require a mundane (smith, jeweler, tailor) skill as well as the magic one (?Artificer?)
2. There needs to be a benefit to crafting your own stuff. If generally people want crafting to not be a moneymaker, make the items better. And not in the way Starfinder does it (with just more durability). An example would be a random table that you roll on if you exceed the creation DC by a certain amount imparting additional abilities to your item. These would not be reflected in the sale price of the item, but make it more useful.
3. Don't abandon all logic for the forced egalitarianism. Sorry, a fighter NEEDS some kind of outside help to craft a magic sword. All stop. That outside help can be made in such a way to be as equal as possible (e.g. a fighter crafting a magic sword in a town of 3000+ people can find someone to help him that keeps the cost the same as the Wizard doing it in the same town, but a fighter locked in a forge by himself cannot make a magic sword. A wizard who can forge a sword can).
Example: Ikaika the Fighter wants to create a magic sword. He travels to Lihu'e to find a forge and magic user to help him. He's making a +1 longsword, which costs X in materials and services. This results in a DC of 29 (Combined from Artificer and Smith) for him to craft the sword. He rolls a 15 on his smithy check, while the wizard he hired gets a 20 resulting in a 35.
Since this exceeds the DC by over 10, he rolls on a random table and his +1 longsword now imparts 5 flame resistance to the wielder. Neato.
Had he hit the DC but not exceeded it by 10 or more, his item would be a normal +1 longsword.
Had he not met his DC by less than 5, his item would cost 10%...
I like your first two ideas, but the third....no, no thanks. I want to have great master smiths that can craft magic weapons/armor/rings/amulets/what have you (not scrolls, potions or wands though) because he's that good, without the aid of a magic user. You know, like in basically every other fantasy setting ever?
Not to mention PF1 already lets mundanes craft magic items without magic (see: Master Craftsman Feat), it's just harder because they can't cast spells.
Every time I've read a master smith in a fantasy setting, they've had some kind of outside help. Whether that was a prayer that was answered despite them not being a cleric or some special scroll/item (e.g. the crafting of Aegis-Fang). Not saying examples don't exists, but I can't think of any :-)
But you are correct. I guess it would be more "Don't remove the balancing for not having the right things" e.g. don't level out the DCs if someone doesn't know the right spells.
Every time I've read a master smith in a fantasy setting, they've had some kind of outside help. Whether that was a prayer that was answered despite them not being a cleric or some special scroll/item (e.g. the crafting of Aegis-Fang). Not saying examples don't exists, but I can't think of any :-)
But you are correct. I guess it would be more "Don't remove the balancing for not having the right things" e.g. don't level out the DCs if someone doesn't know the right spells.
The dwarfs in both the Dragon Age and Warhammer Fantasy Universe are basically the best crafters in their respective lands, be the item mundane or magical, and neither of them can work actual magic in any way, nor did they need to go ask magic users or gods for help.
If you want a human example, the Nibelungen in 7th Sea, the only guys that can work Dracheneisen (which is a magic super metal). Or the smith's in A Song of Ice and Fire that can work Valyrian Steel. Both of these are "magical" items, but the people making them are just mundane (if incredibly skilled) craftsmen.
As to the DCs, sure, though I'm not certain that will remain quite like that. Since Magical Crafter requires Expert in Crafting, I'd imagine you can forge more Magical things as your skill increases, and that's what will balance it more than craft DCs.
Maybe instead of just investing pure GP cash, it can be something more interesting! I like how video game RPGs do crafting, though I suppose farming for the materials won't fly as well in tabletop.
Every time I've read a master smith in a fantasy setting, they've had some kind of outside help. Whether that was a prayer that was answered despite them not being a cleric or some special scroll/item (e.g. the crafting of Aegis-Fang). Not saying examples don't exists, but I can't think of any :-)
But you are correct. I guess it would be more "Don't remove the balancing for not having the right things" e.g. don't level out the DCs if someone doesn't know the right spells.
The dwarfs in both the Dragon Age and Warhammer Fantasy Universe are basically the best crafters in their respective lands, be the item mundane or magical, and neither of them can work actual magic in any way, nor did they need to go ask magic users or gods for help.
If you want a human example, the Nibelungen in 7th Sea, the only guys that can work Dracheneisen (which is a magic super metal). Or the smith's in A Song of Ice and Fire that can work Valyrian Steel. Both of these are "magical" items, but the people making them are just mundane (if incredibly skilled) craftsmen.
As to the DCs, sure, though I'm not certain that will remain quite like that. Since Magical Crafter requires Expert in Crafting, I'd imagine you can forge more Magical things as your skill increases, and that's what will balance it more than craft DCs.
The Dragon Age example doesn't actually have any impact here. Items that are magical in nature are made of Lyrium (which is inherently magical), and dwarves are the only race with a resitance to Lyrium's nocive effects (nausea, dementia, memory loss, blistering of the skin...), and raw lyrium is fatal to mages.
Also, all of those examples mirror the use of special materials in Pathfinder (skymetals, elysian bronze, wyrwood, mindglass...).
That said, I'm totally in favor of magic item crafters not having to cast spells. I find it makes sense that there are more types of magic than just spells, and harnessing magical energies into items is cool.
Every time I've read a master smith in a fantasy setting, they've had some kind of outside help. Whether that was a prayer that was answered despite them not being a cleric or some special scroll/item (e.g. the crafting of Aegis-Fang). Not saying examples don't exists, but I can't think of any :-)
But you are correct. I guess it would be more "Don't remove the balancing for not having the right things" e.g. don't level out the DCs if someone doesn't know the right spells.
The dwarfs in both the Dragon Age and Warhammer Fantasy Universe are basically the best crafters in their respective lands, be the item mundane or magical, and neither of them can work actual magic in any way, nor did they need to go ask magic users or gods for help.
If you want a human example, the Nibelungen in 7th Sea, the only guys that can work Dracheneisen (which is a magic super metal). Or the smith's in A Song of Ice and Fire that can work Valyrian Steel. Both of these are "magical" items, but the people making them are just mundane (if incredibly skilled) craftsmen.
As to the DCs, sure, though I'm not certain that will remain quite like that. Since Magical Crafter requires Expert in Crafting, I'd imagine you can forge more Magical things as your skill increases, and that's what will balance it more than craft DCs.
The Dragon Age example doesn't actually have any impact here. Items that are magical in nature are made of Lyrium (which is inherently magical), and dwarves are the only race with a resitance to Lyrium's nocive effects (nausea, dementia, memory loss, blistering of the skin...), and raw lyrium is fatal to mages.
Also, all of those examples mirror the use of special materials in Pathfinder (skymetals, elysian bronze, wyrwood, mindglass...).
That said, I'm totally in favor of magic item crafters not having to cast spells. I find it makes sense that there are more types of magic than just spells, and harnessing magical energies into items is cool.
They aren't, though. Humans that have undergone the Rite of Tranquility can work it just fine, the dwarfs are just better due to experience.
It's also important because, again, none of my examples had the master smith go out and get his friend Nicodemus the Mage in order to make a +1 sword. That's what I'm against.
If you want to flavor it as the smith harnessing magic on his own, or using magical materials, or what have you, that's fine. Just let me have my non-spellcasting smiths please.
I will second (fifth?) that you shouldn't need spellcasting or the assistance of a spellcaster to make a magic item. Just use flavorful "material components" that either are innately magical, or have sympathetic magic resonance.
For example, gems have all kinds of traits and superstitions linked to them even in our world, let alone a magical world like Golarion where they may actually be vested with a matrix of mystical energy. So using gems like rubies associated with "fire" would count as sympathetic magic toward making an item with fire powers.
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I will second (fifth?) that you shouldn't need spellcasting or the assistance of a spellcaster to make a magic item. Just use flavorful "material components" that either are innately magical, or have sympathetic magic resonance.
For example, gems have all kinds of traits and superstitions linked to them even in our world, let alone a magical world like Golarion where they may actually be vested with a matrix of mystical energy. So using gems like rubies associated with "fire" would count as sympathetic magic toward making an item with fire powers.
Them tasty metamagic gems!
And I agree! In fantasy and even in old D&D, magic items wouldn't just be regular swords "enchanted" by a magic-user. The magic of an item came from it's crazy materials and the rituals used in the process. Why couldn't my sword quenched in a pool of dragon's blood get that Dragon Bane quality or something?