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There is a LOT of discussion about Paladins, Alignment and how the two should be handled in PF2. I'd like to throw out a wish list item of my own that may be polarising.
No Monks in the Core Rule Book.
My rational is this, the class is heavily reliant on the ki resource, steeped in Asian mythology and kung-fu movies. Barring Monks, the core material is euro-centrist (I'm including the middle east in there, because Crusades).
Rather than release it in the core books, hold off and release it in a Tian Xia supplement that includes the Ninja, Samurai, a martial arts subsystem and ki power-source that feels unique.
If the monk is to be included from the start, make it a generic Pugilist class with eastern variants as archetypes with feat trees for variety and flavour.
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All core classes from before confirmed for new Core Rulebook.
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All core classes from before confirmed for new Core Rulebook.
And as Monks are my favorite class, I did rejoice!
(Not sure where I'd put Samurai. It's got some Monk-ish leanings, but also some Fighter-ish leanings too. Heck, Bushido is similar to a paladin's oath in a way.)
I think this depends on how mystical you want your Samurai. Indeed, you could have two different base classes (Fighter and Paladin) who are both considered "Samurai" in the game world, trained by the same sensei, considered the same class of warrior, just given to different specializations. A pure swordswoman might be a Fighter, while the more spiritual samurai who venerates the kami and calls upon their power to aid him in battle (Paladin).
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Somehow, PF1 Samurai is neither Paladin nor Fighter. He's the more historically accurate Cavalier.
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Monk Wishes:
No Lawful alignment, but they must follow a Path to Enlightenment.
Clarify once and for all what is and is not covered or not covered by whatever defensive techniques monks use.
Still no armor.
Archetypes like Zen Archer included from beginning.
Unchained rules used.
Spitballing here.
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I kinda like Monk as a hyper-supernatural martial, that does a lot of things that are magic but are not spells. By the same vein I'd like to see the Fighter (and possibly other martial classes) able to pick up options to be played unarmed and unarmored so the Pugilist-type character is properly supported.
Since archetypes will be in the core rulebook from day one this time, I would definitely prefer the "core" monk to actually be a much less mystical brawler, with the super mystical weird versions from D&D of old being given over to archetypes. Like, I assume even the less mystical version would still have some sort of Ki, even if the character "in context" doesn't "grok" it as such or follow a mystical philosophy. But you can push it more towards Tifa from FF7 and away from having the default be a "philosophical ascetic" who for some reason is immune to poison and eating and breathing.
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Since archetypes will be in the core rulebook from day one this time, I would definitely prefer the "core" monk to actually be a much less mystical brawler, with the super mystical weird versions from D&D of old being given over to archetypes. Like, I assume even the less mystical version would still have some sort of Ki, even if the character "in context" doesn't "grok" it as such or follow a mystical philosophy. But you can push it more towards Tifa from FF7 and away from having the default be a "philosophical ascetic" who for some reason is immune to poison and eating and breathing.
The problem is the less mystical you make the Monk the more of a Fighter archetype it becomes. The Monk really needs its (Su) abilities to maintain any sort of identity that isn't it's playstyle as an unarmed unarmored fighter. IMO classes that are defined wholly by unlocking a playstyle like the Swashbuckler should be avoided and there should just be options to make that playstyle valid with existing classes in the first place.
Why? What's wrong with Body Refiners without concern for spirituality as an option?
Monk Wishes:
No Lawful alignment, but they must follow a Path to Enlightenment.
That would be their Path to Enlightenment, then, right? Perhaps not the right term, but their Way of Being?
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I will be playing a monk my first time out in the playtest, and I am excited for it. Monks are kind of my favorite class in theory (particularly the so enlightened you are mystical variety) so the execution matters a lot to me.
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Monks should be able to do all kinds of stuff that looks impossible. Crazy jumps, lightning-speed movement, punches that send enemies flying through the air.
And a blind monk should be 100% viable right out of the gate!
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Why should the core rulebook be eurocentric? Pathfinder is, and always has been, a lot more than just European flavored fantasy. I'd argue putting everything asian inspired in its own single book sends a bad message, and smells of outdated and often offensive notions of asian "exoticism".
I will be playing a monk my first time out in the playtest, and I am excited for it. Monks are kind of my favorite class in theory (particularly the so enlightened you are mystical variety) so the execution matters a lot to me.
It'd definitely be cool if PF2's Monk had more capacity for "supernatural" offensive ability beyond unarmed combat. Something like ki blasts, maybe?
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Why? What's wrong with Body Refiners without concern for spirituality as an option?
Monk Wishes:
No Lawful alignment, but they must follow a Path to Enlightenment.
It's more so they can skip leg day.
Why should the core rulebook be eurocentric? Pathfinder is, and always has been, a lot more than just European flavored fantasy. I'd argue putting everything asian inspired in its own single book sends a bad message, and smells of outdated and often offensive notions of asian "exoticism".
I will be playing a monk my first time out in the playtest, and I am excited for it. Monks are kind of my favorite class in theory (particularly the so enlightened you are mystical variety) so the execution matters a lot to me.It'd definitely be cool if PF2's Monk had more capacity for "supernatural" offensive ability beyond unarmed combat. Something like ki blasts, maybe?
There was a feat chain in 3.5 to fire Ki Blasts and I always wanted to try it! In PF you can take the Qingongg power of Scorhcing Ray to simulate this, but feels a bit forced.
Why should the core rulebook be eurocentric? Pathfinder is, and always has been, a lot more than just European flavored fantasy. I'd argue putting everything asian inspired in its own single book sends a bad message, and smells of outdated and often offensive notions of asian "exoticism".
It's not that it should be eurocentric, the PF1 CRB already is. Yes it has other stuff but little of it features in what content is CORE. That is the problem that makes the inclusion of the Monk jarring for me. I'd be happy if there was more non-eurocentric content and would welcome samurai and ninja as included archetypes in the Core Rules. I'd love to see more depth given to the other cultures beyond just character art (fluff really). More is done with fantasy races than the other human ethnicities.
I'd happily replace the Monk with the Brawler and whatever gets taken out for class archetypes and feat trees can either be mystical or mundane.
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Why? What's wrong with Body Refiners without concern for spirituality as an option?
Monk Wishes:
No Lawful alignment, but they must follow a Path to Enlightenment.
Under 1e setting up a chaotic character like Sun Wukong (the mythological character rather than the Golarion deity) feels like a Barbarian multiclassing might be in order.
I do have to wonder what's going to happen with Flurry of Blows in the new action economy. And two weapon wielding.
And one thing that always bothered me about monks is that their list of weapon proficiencies includes a lot of non monk weapons, and not all monk weapons are in their proficiencies. The later is mosty due to the weapons being added after the class was written up. Maybe make them proficient in all monk weapons.
I do agree with the idea of a "ki blast" or the like. They should have some kind of Street Fighter hadoken, at least as an archetype option.
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Yes, we definitely need more foresight going into the Monk’s weapons. We don’t need Sajan’s character art featuring him using a sword that he can’t flurry with, only for the APG to come out and include the “not the longsword but totally identical to the longsword” temple sword, just so he can mechanically match his character art.
Also, we need Monk polearms. They can be on the lighter side of damage (probably should be anyway, not that we know the new system’s underlying math), maybe they lose reach during a flurry, but we don’t need polearm temple swords either.
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I do agree with the idea of a "ki blast" or the like. They should have some kind of Street Fighter hadoken, at least as an archetype option.
And a ki-powered aura ability replete with enhanced prowess? Pretty please?
I'm a big fan of power-up-style transformations, so... :P
I would love a ki blast(force damage) and that monks gain enhancement bonuses(based on their monk level) with their natural attacks and any "monk" weapon they wield.
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Yes, we definitely need more foresight going into the Monk’s weapons. We don’t need Sajan’s character art featuring him using a sword that he can’t flurry with, only for the APG to come out and include the “not the longsword but totally identical to the longsword” temple sword, just so he can mechanically match his character art.
I'm not really seeing an issue here, since I don't think the art ever showed him flurrying with the temple sword.
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Oh speaking of Monks, with all the neat Weapon Qualities being added I hope Monks have the ability to add some of their choosing to their Unarmed Strike.
Oh, that’d be cool. Impact to pummel somebody, for instance.
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Oh speaking of Monks, with all the neat Weapon Qualities being added I hope Monks have the ability to add some of their choosing to their Unarmed Strike.Oh, that’d be cool. Impact to pummel somebody, for instance.
*nods*
Sweep (less penalties for attacking different opponent with second and third attacks) would be cool too.
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I've always thought there as a seriously missed opportunity regarding monks and their unique proficiencies. Or, as I think would feel more appropriate and unique, give monks the ability to get more value out of simple weapons. Instead of using these really rare and underpowered "exotic" weapons like kama and siangham, let them take similar simple weapons (sickle and shortspear) to higher heights.
That would give monks even more of a schtick: taking every-day tools (kama = sickle, for example) and making them lethal weapons.
One way of doing this would be to allow them to deal their unarmed damage with these weapons (assuming that in PF2, the monk's base unarmed damage eclipses the base damage of those weapons).
I've always thought there as a seriously missed opportunity regarding monks and their unique proficiencies. Or, as I think would feel more appropriate and unique, give monks the ability to get more value out of simple weapons. Instead of using these really rare and underpowered "exotic" weapons like kama and siangham, let them take similar simple weapons (sickle and shortspear) to higher heights.
That would give monks even more of a schtick: taking every-day tools (kama = sickle, for example) and making them lethal weapons.
One way of doing this would be to allow them to deal their unarmed damage with these weapons (assuming that in PF2, the monk's base unarmed damage eclipses the base damage of those weapons).
Good point. One of the things that 5E did right was exactly that one.
As such, I'd be delighted to see them wielding some kind of slashing-damage sword with DEX to hit (and damage, if applicable). Just like western fantasies, swords are supposed to be Wuxia heroes' favorite weapon, too (followed by spears, other pole weapons, bare body, then others, if I remember correctly).
Good point. One of the things that 5E did right was exactly that one.
oh, excellent. I didn't really play 5E, so I didn't know that. Good move on their part, IMO.
As such, I'd be delighted to see them wielding some kind of slashing-damage sword with DEX to hit (and damage, if applicable). Just like western fantasies, swords are supposed to be Wuxia heroes' favorite weapon, too (followed by spears, other pole weapons, bare body, then others, if I remember correctly).
I could take or leave monks being tied to Western influences. Some I like, others I think come with unnecessary baggage. Your point about spears is perfectly in line with what I'd love to see. Spears have never had much use as a serious weapon; but in the hands of a monk (and as a simple weapon), they could be an interesting, powerful choice if treated properly. And this wold open up some interesting visual thematics ... the character using a longspear with flair, a person being a dervish on the field with a regular spear (flexing from offense to defense as needed), or a warrior wielding one or two shortspears with devastating effect.
There is a LOT of discussion about Paladins, Alignment and how the two should be handled in PF2. I'd like to throw out a wish list item of my own that may be polarising.
No Monks in the Core Rule Book.
My rational is this, the class is heavily reliant on the ki resource, steeped in Asian mythology and kung-fu movies. Barring Monks, the core material is euro-centrist (I'm including the middle east in there, because Crusades).
Rather than release it in the core books, hold off and release it in a Tian Xia supplement that includes the Ninja, Samurai, a martial arts subsystem and ki power-source that feels unique.
If the monk is to be included from the start, make it a generic Pugilist class with eastern variants as archetypes with feat trees for variety and flavour.
I agree with you and I disagree. Pathfinder's core material is pretty unambiguously Eurocentric, we're on the same page there because that's basically a fact. And like you I see no problem with this. It's a really fun rules system and if you wanted to do an Asian themed or African themed setting that would be easy. I find no reason to apologize for the Europeness of traditional fantasy settings, including my world. Knights in full plate armor and English castles and Vikings just happen to interest me more than samurai in feudal Japan.
This does lead me to view the monk as a bit of an oddball. The verbage and flavor of the class suggests that he comes from an Asian lan
that doesn't exist in my world. And his fighting style of punching out armed knights strikes me as zainy, not to mention his movement speed which becomes absolutely comical.
Despite my issues with the monk's style and appropriateness for the setting, I disagree with the idea of canning the class. People want a supernatural warrior of some sort. People want a martial that requires cunning and finesse to play. I think there are some simple fixes available.
-Change the language surrounding the class, changing Asian terminology to more generic terminology. Make this a character class you might run into at the Prancing Pony tavern.
-increase the supernatural powers of the class, whoever suggested giving him a blast power was spot on. Or teleportation powers.
-Allow him to be good with weapons. Maybe even light armor. And keep him from moving at the speed of a fwrarri.
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Another wild hare thought as we're compiling a monk 2E wishlist: what about incorporating the old Soulknife (from 3.5 Psionics)? It seems like a crazy-awesome and thematically appropriate archetype for the monk. I mean, using your internal supernatural power to manifest a unique, personalized blade of energy? Sign me up!
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Oh speaking of Monks, with all the neat Weapon Qualities being added I hope Monks have the ability to add some of their choosing to their Unarmed Strike.
I would love to see them ditch the 'amulet of mighty expense' and just give monks 'handwraps' that can be enchanted - then monks can have fun with 'weapons' and if they need to overcome a specific DR or resistance they can do in a fun way.
That'd be quite awesome.
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I personally think the base monk should be built with the Qingongg archetype as the guideline. Unarmed, unarmored warrior with spell like abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that are not solved by punching. Flight, ranged unarmed strike damage, changing their unarmed strike damage to different elements, going incorporeal, having an aura that enhances themselves, debuffing enemies, teleportation, all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. Maybe have tech trees that the abilities follow, some sorts of paths to enlightenment. A spiritual warrior with magic-like mystical abilities.
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One request regarding monks- can we make the humble staff a viable weapon in the hands of a trained martial artist? Staff combat is some of the coolest parts of a lot of the classic kung fu films that inform the character.
So let me build Gordon Liu in 8 Diagram Pole Fighter. I know that PF1 had quarterstaff feats, but they never really coalesced into a viable-for-the-monk combat style in my experience. So let me be a badass witha stick, not a stick with a sharp piece, or a stick with hinges, just a humble but elegant stick.
Yes, we definitely need more foresight going into the Monk’s weapons. We don’t need Sajan’s character art featuring him using a sword that he can’t flurry with, only for the APG to come out and include the “not the longsword but totally identical to the longsword” temple sword, just so he can mechanically match his character art.I'm not really seeing an issue here, since I don't think the art ever showed him flurrying with the temple sword.
But until they released the stats for the temple sword, he had a weapon he couldn’t use his primary offensive class feature with. Why give him that weapon if he can’t use it? Why not just draw him with nunchuks or a quarterstaff?
But until they released the stats for the temple sword, he had a weapon he couldn’t use his primary offensive class feature with. Why give him that weapon if he can’t use it? Why not just draw him with nunchuks or a quarterstaff?Yes, we definitely need more foresight going into the Monk’s weapons. We don’t need Sajan’s character art featuring him using a sword that he can’t flurry with, only for the APG to come out and include the “not the longsword but totally identical to the longsword” temple sword, just so he can mechanically match his character art.I'm not really seeing an issue here, since I don't think the art ever showed him flurrying with the temple sword.
A lot of material is based on the art. Tattooed Sorcerer and Titan Mauler come to mind. Wayne Reynolds gets a description for the character, and makes something cool based in part on relevant historical stuff.
One request regarding monks- can we make the humble staff a viable weapon in the hands of a trained martial artist? Staff combat is some of the coolest parts of a lot of the classic kung fu films that inform the character.
So what do we need to add/modify to do this? The quarterstaff is already a monk weapon that both kinds of monks are proficient with. Giving the monk something like sacred weapon damage a la the warpriest would make armed builds more viable. There are already a couple of feats for enhancing attacks with the quarterstaff. What is still missing? We should be ready to suggest them if the Playtest version of the monk doesn't have this niche covered.
I think a big one would be to let staff wielding monks use a staff defensively a la the staff magus's "Staff defense". Staff feats we had in PF1 were mostly "you can use it one handed" and "you can trip with it". Disarming and tripping should definitely be part of staff combat for a monk, but it should be a somewhat defense-oriented style for monks (I mean, the benefit of the staff as a weapon is that you can block and parry with it and every inch of it is exactly as dangerous as every other inch.)
I personally think the base monk should be built with the Qingongg archetype as the guideline. Unarmed, unarmored warrior with spell like abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that are not solved by punching. Flight, ranged unarmed strike damage, changing their unarmed strike damage to different elements, going incorporeal, having an aura that enhances themselves, debuffing enemies, teleportation, all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. Maybe have tech trees that the abilities follow, some sorts of paths to enlightenment. A spiritual warrior with magic-like mystical abilities.
I would really like this. That sort of mystical, transcendent character is exactly why I play Monks and why they're my favorite class, anyway. Give us options to enhance our unarmed strikes with various properties (perhaps part of the auras you mention, which I would love) and I would be a very happy camper.
I personally think the base monk should be built with the Qingongg archetype as the guideline. Unarmed, unarmored warrior with spell like abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that are not solved by punching. Flight, ranged unarmed strike damage, changing their unarmed strike damage to different elements, going incorporeal, having an aura that enhances themselves, debuffing enemies, teleportation, all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. Maybe have tech trees that the abilities follow, some sorts of paths to enlightenment. A spiritual warrior with magic-like mystical abilities.I would really like this. That sort of mystical, transcendent character is exactly why I play Monks and why they're my favorite class, anyway. Give us options to enhance our unarmed strikes with various properties (perhaps part of the auras you mention, which I would love) and I would be a very happy camper.
Sounds like we are on the same page! One of the biggest problems with Monks was how their unarmed strikes got outclassed by magic weapons so hardcore in the mid to late game, so some kind of modal auras that allow them to shift the properties of their strikes would go a long way towards making them viable in different situations.
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Sounds like we are on the same page! One of the biggest problems with Monks was how their unarmed strikes got outclassed by magic weapons so hardcore in the mid to late game, so some kind of modal auras that allow them to shift the properties of their strikes would go a long way towards making them viable in different situations.I personally think the base monk should be built with the Qingongg archetype as the guideline. Unarmed, unarmored warrior with spell like abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that are not solved by punching. Flight, ranged unarmed strike damage, changing their unarmed strike damage to different elements, going incorporeal, having an aura that enhances themselves, debuffing enemies, teleportation, all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. Maybe have tech trees that the abilities follow, some sorts of paths to enlightenment. A spiritual warrior with magic-like mystical abilities.I would really like this. That sort of mystical, transcendent character is exactly why I play Monks and why they're my favorite class, anyway. Give us options to enhance our unarmed strikes with various properties (perhaps part of the auras you mention, which I would love) and I would be a very happy camper.
Fits those kinds of stories best, too. Say the Monk is facing an enemy of a type that has recently been a lot of trouble, but she leveled up and learned a new, relevant aura.
Monster: "Fists break upon my hide as easily as swords, foolish girl!"
Monk: (assumes a new stance) "Last time was different. I've been practicing a new technique especially for this. Now is as good a time as any to use ... the Silver Crescent Style!"
Monster: (exaggerated shock)