Mounted Combat Action Economy Check


Rules Questions


Just made a Level 1 Half-Orc Cavalier with a horse mount & wanted to check that I have all the mounted combat rules down right:

A) Example TURN A - not charging:

1) - HORSE uses it's MOVE action to move up to 50ft

1) - CAVALIER on horse spends his MOVE action waiting for the horse to reach the enemy. He doesn't spend it to move, because the horse is doing that. He could use it to do another move action, like 'Pick up an item' or 'Sheathe a weapon'. As a BAB +1 character, he could also 'Draw a weapon' or 'Ready or drop a shield' combined with this otherwise wasted MOVE action. In any case, he can't full-attack this round.

2) - HORSE uses it's 'Bite' Natural Attack as a STANDARD action. But first the Cavalier has to 'Handle Animal' as a FREE action with DC 10 to do the 'Attack' trick. If the Mount is injured, the DC is 12.
'Handle Animal' is a FREE action, due to the CAVALIER's 'Animal Companion Link' class ability. If the HORSE wasn't his Animal Companion, it would be a MOVE action.

2) - CAVALIER uses his STANDARD action to make a single attack. He gains +1 to attack bonus if attacking a 'Medium' or smaller opponent, due to being on top of a 'Large' horse.

Additional:
- If the Cavalier wants to use a 2-handed weapon, or use a 1-handed weapon & shield, he needs to pass a DC 5 Ride check to 'Control with knees' his HORSE. If this is his mount, he doesn't take an 'Armour Check Penalty' to his ride skill, due to his 'Ride Mount' class ability.


b) Example TURN B - Charging:

1) - HORSE uses it's FULL ROUND action to Charge up to 100ft in a straight line towards it's target. It gains +2 to Attack roll & -2 to AC. When it arrives at the target it makes a 'Bite' Natural attack.

1) - CAVALIER on horse spends his MOVE action waiting for the horse to reach the enemy. He doesn't spend it to move, because the horse is doing that. He could use it to do another move action, like 'Pick up an item' or 'Sheathe a weapon'. As a BAB +1 character, he could also 'Draw a weapon' or 'Ready or drop a shield' combined with this otherwise wasted MOVE action. In any case, he can't full-attack this round.

2) - CAVALIER uses his STANDARD action to make a single attack. He gains +1 to attack bonus if attacking a 'Medium' or smaller opponent, due to being on top of a 'Large' horse.
He additionally gains +2 to Attack roll & -2 to AC, because of his Mount's Charge.
If he is using a Lance, he does Double Damage.

Additional:
- If the Cavalier wants to use a 2-handed weapon, or use a 1-handed weapon & shield, he needs to pass a DC 5 Ride check to 'Control with knees' his HORSE. If this is his mount, he doesn't take an 'Armour Check Penalty' to his ride skill, due to his 'Ride Mount' class ability.


Other Rules:

- In BOTH cases above, the CAVALIER can attempt to 'Fast Dismount' with a DC 20 'Ride' check but ONLY if he hasn't used his MOVE action while the HORSE was moving. If he fails the check, the dismount consumes his MOVE action.

- If I understand correctly, the CAVALIER could 'Fast Dismount' when the Mount arrives at the target in EITHER example above & IF he passes the 'Ride' check, he could then take a STANDARD action on foot afterwards.

- OR he could 'Fast Dismount' AFTER taking his STANDARD action to attack, leaving him on foot for the beginning of the next round.

Is there anything I got wrong, or anything important I missed out ?


Turn A:
---
You need not spend your move action while the mount is moving. Your mount can move and attack, then you can attack and still have a move action for whatever. This seems odd considering you can't use a full-attack action at the end of your mount's movement, but Pathfinder rules are odd sometimes.

Turn B:
---
They errata'd Turn B. You both use your full-round action to charge. You can still have your horse double-move and keep your action economy (sans melee full-attack, of course) so long as you don't charge.

If you're charging on horseback with a lance or other reach weapon and the horse doesn't have a means to attack with 10' reach, the horse won't get to attack as you have to stop 10' away.

Other Rules:
---
1. You can fast-dismount any time you have a move action, including at the end of Turn A provided you didn't use your move action for anything. You may not fast-dismount at the end of Turn B as you both used your full-round action to charge.
2. Only for Turn A. See 1.
3. Only for Turn A. See 1.


Brilliant blahpers, thanks for the clarifications !
I missed the implications of the Lance's 10' reach.
I actually prefer the errata'd version of turn B - even though it's technically weaker, it's simpler & more inuitive.
Interestingly, I'm using the Pocket Core Rulebook (same as hardcover 6th print) & the text still hasn't been updated.

Liberty's Edge

Mounted Combat is extensively discussed in several other threads you could look up by searching for 'mounted combat'. These threads are quite long, as the mounted combat rules are somewhat vague/contradictatory & FAQ attempts to straighten out certain parts of it have generally not succeeded.

Feat Notes:
1. If you have the Ride-by Combat feat, you can a) charge the opponent with your lance, attack him for 2x damage (lance), then keep going up to your limit of 2x mount movement. The mount receives no attack, as above. b) charge your opponent with a non-reach weapon, both you and your mount attack, and then keep going as above.
2. If you have the Spirited Charge feat, the lance does 3x damage.
3. If you have the Wheeling Charge feat, you can a) charge through your allies as if moving through them with normal movement and b) make one turn during your movement, of up to 90 degrees. Your movement before and after the turn have to be straight lines.


Thanks ODO, I plan to pick up Ride-By-Combat & Spirited Charge as I level up - very handy feats.
I think I've got a grasp on what I need for the most common things I'll be doing in combat (when mounted).


Odo Hillborne wrote:

Mounted Combat is extensively discussed in several other threads you could look up by searching for 'mounted combat'. These threads are quite long, as the mounted combat rules are somewhat vague/contradictatory & FAQ attempts to straighten out certain parts of it have generally not succeeded.

Feat Notes:
1. If you have the Ride-by Combat feat, you can a) charge the opponent with your lance, attack him for 2x damage (lance), then keep going up to your limit of 2x mount movement. The mount receives no attack, as above. b) charge your opponent with a non-reach weapon, both you and your mount attack, and then keep going as above.

I'm not sure that this is correct. Ride By Attack enables your mount to keep moving after you have attacked. It says nothing about your mount being able to move after it has attacked.

As I understand it after you've attacked your mount can keep going. If you've attacked with a reach weapon then your mount can either keep moving until it gets close enough to make its own charge attack, or it can just keep going. Either way your mount can't keep moving after it makes an attack.


graeme mcdougall wrote:

Brilliant blahpers, thanks for the clarifications !

I missed the implications of the Lance's 10' reach.
I actually prefer the errata'd version of turn B - even though it's technically weaker, it's simpler & more inuitive.
Interestingly, I'm using the Pocket Core Rulebook (same as hardcover 6th print) & the text still hasn't been updated.

Technically speaking it not so much an errata as a proposed errata in the FAQ. So it presently doesn't appear in any version of the CRB. It only appears in the FAQ.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The OP falls into a common pitfall: speaking about actions the mount is taking vs actions the rider is taking.

The basic premise of PF rules (and DD3.x rules before that) on mounted combat are that the rider and his mount are considered to be a single entity.

As soon as you start asking questions like "how does the rider use his move action, while his mount is using its move action" you get thrown into a logical stalemate that results in ridiculous rulings like the idea that PF rules disallow charging an opponent with a lance, unless you have some special set of feats and/or class abilities.

I mean, just look at the mounted combat FAQ.

The only reasonable interpretation of the phrase "both charge in unison" is that the rider and mount are treated as a single entity that moves and attacks using the standard rules for PF combat. Unless you adopt this ruling across the board, you end up with interminable illogical arguments claiming that you simply can't fight on horseback without the right set of feats and/or class abilities.

The only way to restore a modicum of order to our collective understanding of mounted combat rules is to say:
1) No, you don't use "handle animal" to get your mount to do stuff while you're riding it. That's what the Ride skill is for.
2) Yes, you can charge an opponent while riding, and make a single attack, as usual for the PF rules. Whether or not your mount also gets to attack may depend on some abstruse combination of feats and/or class abilities, but you, the rider, do get to attack, getting the stated benefits from using a lance or having cool feats.
3) Your mount does not have a separate set of actions to spend in a combat round, it shares the rider's actions.

I have seen nothing good come from folks trying to bend these three simple points. It's a pity that the PF rules don't come right out and say these things, but it is strongly implied by everything I've read, including the mounted combat FAQ and the many mounted combat feats (which often refer to "normal" usage).

Any character, regardless of class or feat choice, should be able to jump on a horse and fight from their mounted position. Things like knowing whether the mount is combat trained, or what the DC is on the ride check for various things, or what effect special feats have on their combat are certainly important. But no interpretation of mounted combat should prevent 1st-level Joe Anyclass from trying to fight from horseback, or even from charging an enemy.


I certainly wasn't trying to bend the rules for advantage.
In fact, I was disappointed to find how scattered & unclear the rules for mounted combat are.
I agree with you, I wish the rules did come out and say these things because it makes it much easier for someone who has never done mounted combat before.
You'll see that I'd never read that FAQ before & was happy with the shared charge straight away. I'm coming at this from reading the Core Rulebook & trying to work out how mounted combat works. I've never played 3.5 or any other RPG before Pathfinder.
Anyway, I now understand what I need to do in order to make either a charging or non-charging attack in mounted combat, which is what I really came for.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Graeme, no worries. It's a significant grey area in the PF rules - inexplicably, I might add, since having PCs ride into combat on horseback is definitely a thing they should be able to try to do, right from first level, and without any special feats.

I think a lot of confusion is put to rest as long as you consider:
- the rider and his mount are a single entity, and share actions;
- many "normal" actions do not even require a roll with the ride skill, although there are some pretty important ones that do. Any character planning to ride a mount really ought to put a skill point or more in the Ride skill; and
- having a combat-trained mount may be a bit expensive at first, but it's worth it if you want to fight up there.

Note that, according to the Ride skill, if your mount is combat trained, and you are using a free hand to guide it, and you aren't trying to have you mount use its own natural attacks, no Ride skill check is necessary. You simply move the mount's base movement speed in place of your own, and attack once, just like if you were on foot. Or you stay in place and do a full attack (with the same optional 5-foot step as usual). Or you use a full-round action to charge (with +2 on your attack and -2 on your AC) as usual, the same as if you were on foot, except you use your mount's speed. None of those things require a Ride skill check.

I suspect that this seemed so self-evidently obvious to the writers behind DD3.5 and PF that they never spelled it out as such.

And anyone who tries to tell you that you need to use the Handle Animal skill while sitting on your mount is simply misinformed. You *will* need to use the Handle Animal skill to get your mount to do stuff while you are on foot, like running up and waiting for you to leap from a 2nd-storey window into the saddle, or entering combat while you are not riding. But any actions you attempt while riding use the Ride skill - often with no skill check required at all.


Thanks Wheldrake, that's another useful clarification conceptually - 'Handle Animal' & 'Tricks' for giving your Mount orders from the ground & 'Ride' for directing it from horseback.
This has been a very useful thread from my point of view. Plus the picture I've come away with at the end is simpler than what I thought going in, which is a bonus.

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