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I just saw the vampire hunter on the SRD. This surprised me because usually when a new class is in the pipeline there's a lot of buzz on the forums beforehand.
I have to say I like it. There are some serious problems with the class, like having a vampiric focus that increases charisma when the class uses wisdom to cast, and having d8 hit die (hillariously, one focus gives you 1hp per level, rquivalant to being d10, which all other full BaB get for free).
The bigger problem is dead levels. For example, at level 7 you can TRACK GASSEOUS CREATURES.
I like the class though. Seems like an ugly little dog with a big personality. I don't think anyone's gonna call This a power class but it's perfect for that obsessed monster hunter or any player who's saying DO I REALLY WANNA MAKE ANOTHER RANGER?!
I'd love to see some archetypes but I'm loving this as of now.
I think it's a good idea in the abstract, I think the 3.5 ranger may have had the same. I like the skirmishy feel it provides, this dude is not a dumb hunk who holds the line mindlessly.
But the class features appear too weak to justify the loss of HP. Still, pretty interesting.
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The site you are referring to is not the official Pathfinder Reference Document (which is actually called the PRD, not SRD—SRD is a D&D Third Edition term), and not affiliated with Paizo. The vampire hunter is not an "official" Pathfinder RPG class by Paizo, it's from a supplement produced for the "Vampire Hunter D: Message from Mars" Kickstarter, which is not generally available, as far as I can tell. That site sometimes makes it difficult to distinguish between official Paizo Pathfinder content and third party content
Yeah the reason no one is really talking about it is because it's not produced by Paizo
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This is nuts. Has to be the first time I've seen 3rd party material appear under base classes.
I got all excited over nothing. (no offense to the creators of this cool class. My group just isn't into 3P)
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There was a blog about it over a year ago. As stated in the blog and in the Kickstarter, it's Paizo-made and "official".
It's just not available for sale. Only the Kickstarter backers who opted-in to the supplement recieved copies, though the Kickstarter mentioned it may become more available in the future.
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It's published by Paizo. It's official, just like the archtypes from pathfinder worldscape for red sonya, tarzan, martian warlord, and so on
"Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: The World of Vampire Hunter D © 2016, Paizo Inc. All Rights Reserved. Paizo, Paizo Inc., the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, and Pathfinder Society are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc.; "
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the niobe kickstarter will get something too, so just to note this before we get the same confusion then
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Ah, nice.
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It's only "official" in regards to who published it. But, as noted, it breaks from numerous design conventions. It hasn't been referenced in any regard since it was created (and as a bonus to something of an off-topic Kickstarter). It's not PFS-legal, doesn't have an iconic, wasn't released in a hardcover (or softcover, for that matter), and isn't part of any of the main Paizo publishing lines. I'd just ignore it.
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It's published by Paizo. It's official, just like the archtypes from pathfinder worldscape for red sonya, tarzan, martian warlord, and so on
"Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: The World of Vampire Hunter D © 2016, Paizo Inc. All Rights Reserved. Paizo, Paizo Inc., the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, and Pathfinder Society are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc.; "
So how does one buy or otherwise legally obtain this product?
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At least it looks somewhat fun, when I first saw it pop up on d20pfsrd.com I was able to think up something thematic to base a story-line of my own around. That being said, just because Paizo has a hand in it does not mean all such supplemental material is created equal. Additionally, the main line already has a Vampire Hunter in the form of the Inquisitor Archetype.
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So my question is if it's only "kinda sorta official" and isn't sold legally with any books, hasn't been referenced since its conception, doesn't have an iconic, has worse identity problems than even the Shifter, etc...
Why is it listed side by side with the other 100% Official Paizo classes?
Would it not make more sense to have it listed somewhere else on the SRD? Potentially in 3rd party stuff, or a new category consisting currently of only this, in the event future "kinda sorta official" classes are made? It just feels kinda like putting a McDonalds toy alongside official merch in a display cabinet. Cool, but not quite the real deal.
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Maybe, but Paizo doesn't get any input on what the owners of D20PFSRD do.
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Why is it listed side by side with the other 100% Official Paizo classes?
Well where would it go? It's NOT 3rd party. There isn't a section for what you'd count as '90%' official and it's just take time and space to invent a category JUST for it. So the reasonable place is with other Paizo material.
Personally, I would have added a 'Wiki Note' at the top of the Vampire Hunter's, explaining where it's from, that it's not available for PFS, and that it's intended for a fairly specific type of game and GMs should consider that if a player asks to use the class.
It already says where it's from [Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: The World of Vampire Hunter D © 2016, Paizo Inc.; Author: F. Wesley Schneider] as most material does if you take the time to look and Nethys is the site that lists PFS legality. I don't see that it needs anything more.
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But, if it's not from Paizo, wouldn't that technically make it 3rd party.
Genuinely asking.
Edit: Never mind, should've finished reading your post.
Now, to smurf myself for the weekend.
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It's only "official" in regards to who published it. But, as noted, it breaks from numerous design conventions. It hasn't been referenced in any regard since it was created (and as a bonus to something of an off-topic Kickstarter). It's not PFS-legal, doesn't have an iconic, wasn't released in a hardcover (or softcover, for that matter), and isn't part of any of the main Paizo publishing lines. I'd just ignore it.
The anti-paladin isn't PFS-legal and technically doesn't have an iconic either. And it was released in a booklet so it was in a softcover.
Paizo has said they are in the works to sell the PDF.
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It's only "official" in regards to who published it. But, as noted, it breaks from numerous design conventions. It hasn't been referenced in any regard since it was created (and as a bonus to something of an off-topic Kickstarter). It's not PFS-legal, doesn't have an iconic, wasn't released in a hardcover (or softcover, for that matter), and isn't part of any of the main Paizo publishing lines. I'd just ignore it.The anti-paladin isn't PFS-legal and technically doesn't have an iconic either. And it was released in a booklet so it was in a softcover.
Paizo has said they are in the works to sell the PDF.
I mean, to start, the Antipaladin is a glorified archetype.
Secondly, it was released in a hardcover.Also, it does have an iconic, just not one we know really anything about.
In any case, I’m not sure if use that as my benchmark as to what makes something an official class. The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.
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The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.
There hasn't been a huge amount of time since it was made. Second, support and official don't go hand to hand. Remember all the support material we DIDN'T get for words of power, something printed in a hardback... :P
The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.There hasn't been a huge amount of time since it was made. Second, support and official don't go hand to hand. Remember all the support material we DIDN'T get for words of power, something printed in a hardback... :P
WoP is an optional subsystem, so it’s like comparing apples to oranges. When was the last time you saw anything covering combat stamina, spellblights, Armor as DR, called shots, or performance combat?
In any case, the Antipaladin has at least shown up in modules, gotten new spells, and even the occasional new archetype. It’s not a lot, but they have acknowledged it’s existence.
Mechanics aside, this seems like it should be an archetype or prestige class to me. It feels way to narrow to be a base class.
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WoP is an optional subsystem, so it’s like comparing apples to oranges. When was the last time you saw anything covering combat stamina, spellblights, Armor as DR, called shots, or performance combat?
But you're proving my point: No support doesn't equal non-official. Optional doesn't make it unofficial.
In any case, the Antipaladin has at least shown up in modules, gotten new spells, and even the occasional new archetype. It’s not a lot, but they have acknowledged it’s existence.
And? Sacred Geometry hasn't shown up in any other material, along with dozens of other rules elements, and they are still official.
If you want to talk class, look at ninja: printed in 2011 and got 3 archetypes in 2016, 2016, and 2018... so 5 years before the first one so why look for an archetype from the vampire hunter in 2? Support doesn't always come or is sometimes has a glacial pace: you can't point to something out a bit over a year and say 'but it's got no support' because history and past support timelines doesn't really back you up.
Mechanics aside, this seems like it should be an archetype or prestige class to me. It feels way to narrow to be a base class.
More likely an alternate class: for me, ninja could have been an archetype too.
The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.There hasn't been a huge amount of time since it was made. Second, support and official don't go hand to hand. Remember all the support material we DIDN'T get for words of power, something printed in a hardback... :P
Right on. Also remember a lot of Pathfinder Unchained stuff didn't get support either -- VMC has gotten nothing since release despite being frequently mentioned on these Messageboards (not sure how much actual use it gets, but from the amount of user attention it gets, must be something), and Unchained Monk has gotten only partial support.
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The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.There hasn't been a huge amount of time since it was made. Second, support and official don't go hand to hand. Remember all the support material we DIDN'T get for words of power, something printed in a hardback... :PRight on. Also remember a lot of Pathfinder Unchained stuff didn't get support either -- VMC has gotten nothing since release despite being frequently mentioned on these Messageboards (not sure how much actual use it gets, but from the amount of user attention it gets, must be something), and Unchained Monk has gotten only partial support.
While I agree 100% on VMC, the Umonk has finally started to get some love. It's up to 9 archetypes, and while not huge it dwarfs the measly 3 the poor ninja has. Though I must admit is continues to irk me that the majority of new monk material seems to ignore the Umonk...
The point I was making is that classes are at a different standard than subsystems. Subsystems tens to be one-and-done. Classes keep getting new stuff.
In any case, ignoring the fact the Antipaladin has’t receives much support (Though still some), it has shown up in published adventures as an antagonist.
Also, Ninja is an alternate class- i.e. an extensive Archetype- it did still get an iconic, showed up in adventures, made PFS-legal, and more.
Still, if you want it this way: the Antipaladin was missing PFS legality and an iconic. The Ninja is missing support. The Vampire Hunter (in addition to being two words) is missing all three and more besides.
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The Vampire Hunter (in addition to being two words) is missing all three and more besides.
AND just came out a year ago... How long did the others take to accumulate the meager amount of support they have now? IMO, you're jumping the gun by several YEARS before you'd have a little bit of a point here.
Secondly, I don't see PFS as having the slightest relevance in this. Plenty of legal stuff comes out that they don't like.
3rd, I count vampire hunter D as the iconic for the class. It was LITERALLY built around him and he has a full workup in the back of the book.
4th, other material from the book, the possessed hand tree, has been reprinted nearly word for word in Haunted Heroes Handbook. That's not something you can do with 3rd party material...
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Mixed d8 and full BAB in the table, way more specialized than other classes, and the only class from a non-hardcover… whether or not it belongs there, it's going to annoy me.
@Graystone: Well, technically, you can reprint stuff... as long as it's not Product Identity, anyway. Any Open Game Content can be republished and used by other people as long as the terms of the OGL are followed, and that includes most rules content.
I do agree, however, that the Vampire Hunter is a class meant for a very, very specific kind of game. XD I don't think that makes it a "bad" class, per se, but as a GM I probably wouldn't allow
Ditto. I'd have to be REALLY undead-heavy, and I don't really do that sort of thing on a regular basis.
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The Vampire Hunter (in addition to being two words) is missing all three and more besides.AND just came out a year ago... How long did the others take to accumulate the meager amount of support they have now? IMO, you're jumping the gun by several YEARS before you'd have a little bit of a point here.
Secondly, I don't see PFS as having the slightest relevance in this. Plenty of legal stuff comes out that they don't like.
3rd, I count vampire hunter D as the iconic for the class. It was LITERALLY built around him and he has a full workup in the back of the book.
4th, other material from the book, the possessed hand tree, has been reprinted nearly word for word in Haunted Heroes Handbook. That's not something you can do with 3rd party material...
I think part of the problem with saying 'official' is that we don't have a working definition. If your definition of 'official' is 'made by Paizo, rather than a different game company' you could say the Gentleman class is 'official.' What I'm saying by 'official' is that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo and has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication. The Vampire Hunter just doesn't do that.
To start, within a year of the Antipaladin's release, it was being referenced in APs, got new spells in Ultimate Magic, and likely got more support in non-main lines. Of course, back then, Paizo was using more of a 'we're keeping this within the core ruleset' mindset, and (so far as I could find) the other new classes introduced in the APG got a similar amount of coverage. Later on, though, the Ninja was appearing within new APs in the same year (UC came out in 2011, same year as the Jade Regent AP), as Paizo has since shifted their mindset. So, it's not really the same comparison. If they had any intention of using it, they would have likely, by this point, mentioned it (even in passing).
(Oh, and one more thing: those classes were discussed in players guides for new APs well within the year of their release)
Fair enough. PFS doesn't do a lot of cool stuff that I would consider official. That said, they typically disallow stuff like an archetype or two, or some feats, or a new spell- not an entire class.
Next, if an Iconic doesn't have a backstory, pregen/blog post, or an 'ask the iconic,' is it really an Iconic? Iconics are something of a Paizo specialty, to give people a sense as to what the class is all about.
Finally, the fact that an entire feat chain was reprinted in a softcover, of all things, only proves my point further: when Paizo reprints something, it's to either nerf it or to bring it into the Core lineup, putting it in the PRD (whenever that's updated) and opening it up to the possibility of use in a product down the line. Putting it into a softcover, almost word-for-word (as you say) really just shows they liked the feat chain and wanted to make it more 'official,' by allowing people to actually see it and use it from an official source.
Overall, I fell like if the Vampire Hunter was actually intended to be official, Paizo would have given it a blog post, mentioned it in a player's guide, given it some new spells, or even just, you know, mentioning that it exists. Heck, the fact most people didn't even know it existed until a year after its release almost speaks for itself.
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talking about it not being mentioned anywhere
http://paizo.com/paizo/news/archive/v5748eaic9usz?Vampire-Hunter-D-Message- from-Mars-Comes-to
how about this? leMoineNoir posted this already
EDIT: seems the website update screwed the links
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trcs?Vampire-Hunter-D-Message-from-Mars-Kickst arter
this thread seems to still work and is from the time
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What I'm saying by 'official' is that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo and has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication.
IMO, 'official' is "that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo", IE their stamp is on it: it's copywritten to Paizo, has 'player companion' and 'pathfinder roleplaying game' in the official copyrighted font. It has all the stamps and marking of an official work. [© 2016, Paizo Inc.]
As to "has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication", I could care less and do not see it as a gauge of 'officialness'. As I've pointed out, there is PLENTY of material that hasn't seen "referenced again in a future publication". I have yet to see sacred geometry in a AP/adventure, or word casting, or VMC, or ect... They are all official in my eyes. It isn't a 3rd party product, and that's all that matters IMO.
So you are arguing a definition of 'official' that doesn't align with my understanding of it.
Something seems to have broken with the blog. The link in this thread, and even trying links from Google searches, seem to redirect to the Paizo homepage.
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Something seems to have broken with the blog. The link in this thread, and even trying links from Google searches, seem to redirect to the Paizo homepage.
Old links do that. For me, new links connect fine. Did you get here from a saved link or a link from the RPG page?
I grabbed the original link I posted right off of a Google search, and it worked fine for me when I posted it.
Now it doesn't even seem to come up when I use this site's search function on the blog. Or I might just be missing it.
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I grabbed the original link I posted right off of a Google search, and it worked fine for me when I posted it.
Now it doesn't even come up when I use this site's search function on the blog. Or I might just be missing it.
Oh, I see what you're talking about. I missed CivMaster's post. His second link works but the first doesn't as that address doesn't exist anymore after the site redo.
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For those interested, someone on reddit made a reference list of all(?) the Vampire Hunter D content on D20PFSRD.
While I agree 100% on VMC, the Umonk has finally started to get some love. It's up to 9 archetypes, and while not huge it dwarfs the measly 3 the poor ninja has. Though I must admit is continues to irk me that the majority of new monk material seems to ignore the Umonk...The Antipaladin, at least, has had continual support since its release.There hasn't been a huge amount of time since it was made. Second, support and official don't go hand to hand. Remember all the support material we DIDN'T get for words of power, something printed in a hardback... :PRight on. Also remember a lot of Pathfinder Unchained stuff didn't get support either -- VMC has gotten nothing since release despite being frequently mentioned on these Messageboards (not sure how much actual use it gets, but from the amount of user attention it gets, must be something), and Unchained Monk has gotten only partial support.
Yet strangely some of the recent Monk archetypes do not support Unchained Monk. For a while it seemed like all the new Monk archetypes supported it, but now some do not (Hellcat Monk, Menhir Guardian, Nornkith, Sin Monk, Wasteland Meditant, and Water Dancer -- basically, all the archetypes from Ultimate Wilderness and the Elemental Master's Guide unless I missed one, and some others).
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Likely most of you have already seen this, but I figure I'll link to it for the sake of completeness.
Archmage Variel has created a guide to the Vampire Hunter.
Link to the guide.
Link to the discussion thread.
I just saw the vampire hunter on the SRD. This surprised me because usually when a new class is in the pipeline there's a lot of buzz on the forums beforehand.
Its from the Vampire Hunter D supplement.
The supplement itself had been out for a while now but any game information from said supplement has only gotten recently listed upon the PF OGC website. ;)
What I'm saying by 'official' is that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo and has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication.IMO, 'official' is "that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo", IE their stamp is on it: it's copywritten to Paizo, has 'player companion' and 'pathfinder roleplaying game' in the official copyrighted font. It has all the stamps and marking of an official work. [© 2016, Paizo Inc.]
As to "has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication", I could care less and do not see it as a gauge of 'officialness'. As I've pointed out, there is PLENTY of material that hasn't seen "referenced again in a future publication". I have yet to see sacred geometry in a AP/adventure, or word casting, or VMC, or ect... They are all official in my eyes. It isn't a 3rd party product, and that's all that matters IMO.
So you are arguing a definition of 'official' that doesn't align with my understanding of it.
I'd say that rather than being considered either "first or third party", it may qualify more as "second party" with Paizo creating it for another IP (in this case, Vampire Hunter D). ;)
For those interested, someone on reddit made a reference list of all(?) the Vampire Hunter D content on D20PFSRD.
Good to have some free reddit peepins for all of the Vampire Hunter D PF adaptation info (not just the base class!). ;)
Likely most of you have already seen this, but I figure I'll link to it for the sake of completeness.
Archmage Variel has created a guide to the Vampire Hunter.
Link to the guide.
Link to the discussion thread.
Good to have a link to that free class guide to the only known Paizo-created Base Class created before 2nd edition PF (unless the Niobe one will also haz a base class)? ;)
I think part of the problem with saying 'official' is that we don't have a working definition. If your definition of 'official' is 'made by Paizo, rather than a different game company' you could say the Gentleman class is 'official.' What I'm saying by 'official' is that it is seen as an actual thing that exists by Paizo and has the potential to be referenced again in a future publication. The Vampire Hunter just doesn't do that.The Vampire Hunter (in addition to being two words) is missing all three and more besides.AND just came out a year ago... How long did the others take to accumulate the meager amount of support they have now? IMO, you're jumping the gun by several YEARS before you'd have a little bit of a point here.
Secondly, I don't see PFS as having the slightest relevance in this. Plenty of legal stuff comes out that they don't like.
3rd, I count vampire hunter D as the iconic for the class. It was LITERALLY built around him and he has a full workup in the back of the book.
4th, other material from the book, the possessed hand tree, has been reprinted nearly word for word in Haunted Heroes Handbook. That's not something you can do with 3rd party material...
I suspect that the updated Gentleman class (version 2, if you will) was "redone" to comply with certain OGL requirements and (maybe) to have Paizo's permission in using some of Paizo's trade-dress (the Pathfinder looking background thingy...) stuff and giving Paizo its' due by mentioning them- but it wasn't actually created/written by Paizo, as far as I'm aware of. ;)
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Maybe I'm missing something, but if it was official wouldn't you actually be able to purchase/download something that had the class write-up from the Paizo site?
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Its from the Vampire Hunter D supplement.
My only major issue with the class is a d8 hit dice on a full BAB class. Still not sure who thought breaking pathfinder design philosophy was a good idea
You mean like the 4 level caster class on a d8 hit die with a 3/4 BAB? Occult broke class design already.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but if it was official wouldn't you actually be able to purchase/download something that had the class write-up from the Paizo site?
As far as I know, Paizo is still working on making it available for sale, as mentioned here. I'm guessing it hasn't been available because it contains content from another IP. The Niobe book will probably be in a similar situation.