So, the thing I've been waiting on before writing anything remotely serious has finally dropped and we get a glimpse of what to expect when we're forcing saves on critters whether we're solarians, mystics, technomancers and what not.
So the progression of the "good" save for monsters is relatively linear with a couple of really high levels not really moving very much. So for target numbers we'll start with that and add 15 to it. If that seems high, bear in mind this is the good save being targeted and I'm deciding high on purpose since this is meant to be an end goal, not a stringent requirement. You can adjust down to fit your needs.
Chart is here because I'm too lazy to format for the forum.
The other reason I'm going with the good save/s is you won't always be aware or capable of targeting the lower saves.
I'll expand on this and get on to making those target numbers (if at all possible) when I can tomorrow. Just wanted to put this out there to be munched on for a bit. I'm well aware that they're high but this lets us check the viability of such abilities against equal CR opponents.
While I haven't done a comprehensive breakdown as appears to be your intent, I still feel confident saying that you will not hit a target DC of save+15 for an equal CR monster, at least not consistently. Spell DCs should cap at about 28 , and I'd expect ability and item DCs to stop at similar numbers. You may be able to get situational bonuses or apply penalties, but I think a general +15 is a very optimistic goal to aim for.
But having not crunched all the numbers myself, I could be wrong. I expect this will be quite informative either way, so it's a worthwhile exercise you're starting.
...why is this in advice, not homebrew? What is this even for? Adding 15 to a target's save bonus simply means the target will fail 70% of the time, which seems like a fairly arbitrary rubric, but I don't follow what the intended use of the chart is.
Placeholder for room.
Here's a list of optimal save DCs for a caster, assuming max stat and spell focus (and the highest spell level available to the caster), followed by combatant array good save, and probability of the save failing:
- 15,3,40%
- 15,4,45%
- 17,5,40%
- 18,6,40%
- 18,7,45%
- 18,8,50%
- 20,9,45%
- 20,10,50%
- 20,11,55%
- 22,12,50%
- 23,13,50%
- 23,14,55%
- 24,15,55%
- 25,16,55%
- 25,17,60%
- 26,18,60%
- 27,19,60%
- 27,19,60%
- 27,20,65%
- 28,21,65%
Reduce by 5% per spell level down, which is absolutely necessary for Mystics (Technomancers can eat lower-level spell slots for higher-level ones). Spell-likes are even weaker, because you can't apply Spell Focus. If you use a spell which targets EAC and lets you use your primary casting stat, these numbers go up, and they go up even higher if you allow weapon focus[spells] to exist.
Quindraco, I think you meant "probably of an enemy succeeding on their save", based on the numbers in the table.
It feels quite frustrating that for technomancers & mystics, the chance of an enemy resisting your highest level spell actually increases as you level up, despite any efforts you might make to improve your spell DCs. And that's not even considering that you aren't always going to be casting your highest level spells.
FWIW, non-spell DCs tend to scale at 10+1/2 class level+ability mod. This gives you a progression that follows the spell DC progression pretty closely, capping at DC29 at max level for an optimized primary stat.
Stuff.
To answer the first few questions the purpose is to look at optimal numbers and worst case scenarios then work out what someone would have to work for to approach reliable results.
That's not homebrew.
I chose 15(good rolls) over 10 (average) rolls because my goal isnt to give my opponent a 50/50 chance but a 5% chance. But given that's not always reasonable I elected for the lesser path.
That isn't to say what you provided isn't useless. It's actually a bit disheartening as you're using average rolls and the worse of the "good" saves as spellcaster/expert will saves scale a touch higher.
Right now, im scrawling through and looking at options to see how i can increase dc's/lower saves. And ultimately im talking about more than just the casters.
So getting back to this topic. I went and scrawled through the book looking for ways to lower saves and raise dc's.
Overall there's not a lot to go with. Technomancers have Mental Mark and Mystics have Sow Doubt. Both of which are useful in getting those key spells to hit when needed. Grenadiers get explosive acumen which feels pretty terrible compared to equivalent spellcaster things.
In terms of feats we only have Improved Critical to use outside of
Equipment doesn't seem to be much better as only the Needler's critical effect adds on to the DC of injected things. Could combine rather well with improved critical for anyone wanting to focus on assassination type characters with drugs and poisons.
Spells do give us some nasty options. Bestow curse is just mean when and if you get it to land. Not much else beyond that.
With some effort you can get them to fail on their best saves. -4 from intimidate and mental mark/sow doubt adds another 20% failure chance for the opponent. Though that's not guaranteed. IT also comes with some side benefits (lowered ac, and attack rolls for example). None of this is on the level of the stuff you can pull in its parent game
Ultimately this really just proves the value of taking the paht of least resistance and hitting those lower saves. Namely fort/reflex for spellcasters and experts and will for combatants.
Though I have to say comparing numbers even going this route isn't great at lower levels as it just adds between a 20-25% chance of success. That being said it looks like it's imperative to target those weaker saves to have a good amount of reliability.
Something of note is that though the raw numbers are tied to one of three types grafts, templates, and types still add to the overall skeleton in some nasty ways. Spellcasters who rely on saves are going to seriously hate undead combatant types as they tend to be flat out immune to a lot of things and ignore a lot of the construct hosing that Starfinder gives us.
In truth it's going to end up the same as it always has, go for spells that bypass or ignore saves, focusing on battlefield control and support with nods towards direct damage where required.
In terms of other classes? 10+ability modifier+half level will produce similar results for spells so that is a consideration to take into account. Though some players may feel this to be a nasty burden since it requires a max of that stat to get that result. I've considered some ways that solarians and grenadiers can get those kinds of results.
I'll consolidate some of this math later. And I do wonder about the directions the game will grow from here. Raising dc's can be a bit of a treacherous route as it's all too easy to stack a few things together and go back to the ancient times of wizard kings.
One option you may not have considered TarkXT: Technomancers can select a digital harrow deck as their spell cache, gaining the ability to spend a resolve point to increase their spell DC by 1 when they cast.
Another thought: The fear line of spells from mystic applies shaken even if the enemy succeeds on their save. A mid level AoE fear therefore functions both as crowd control and to consistently debuff enemies for your technomancer friend's followup.
It does look like teamwork is one possible way to improve the odds of having spells stick.
The combat maneuver Dirty trick among other things can apply Entangled (-2 reflex saves), Shaken (-2 to saves), or Sickened (-2 to all saves).
Entangled can also be applied by weapon fusion for 1d4 rounds.
Shaken can be applied by Intimidate as well as by Dispiriting Taunt (guaranteed with 1 point of Resolve). As noted before, it is applied by fear spells that are saved against as well.
Sickened can be applied by Solarian Radiation, although that offers a save in and of itself. On the other hand, its AoE and in principle can stay on once turned on. Synaptic Pulse, Greater sickens on successful saving throw (stun on failed).
A number of poison effects can reduce your constitution, reducing Fortitude saves indirectly.
Grappling reduces your Reflex save by 2. Being pinned in a grapple reduces it by 4.
Being paralyzed changes your Dex modifier to -5, which in general will reduce Reflex saves a huge amount (unclear how that reduces NPC creature saving throws though).
I'll note Improved Critical is a terrible feat as it basically has a noticeable effect once every 200 attack rolls on average. You need to roll a 20 (1 in 20) then the enemy needs roll a saving throw exactly equal to or 1 point higher than the usual save DC (1 in 10).
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