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Goodness, suddenly a flurry of activity, let's see what we have here...
Okay. So, using that nifty new table someone so kindly put together (thank you), we still have 4 dead levels, even including the new Shifter's Fury.
Shifter's Fury is a step in the right direction in my mind, trying to make non-tiger forms more competitive, especially in conjunction with the Shifter's Edge nerf. However, most of the forms that would benefit from this also pretty much couldn't use Shifter's Edge in the first place (their primary Gore attack doing more than your claws would). Tiger is just strictly better (It gets 4 uses of your claw damage, and therefore shifter's edge)
I also think Final Aspect finally makes sense. I do wish that unlimited use of minor forms was given to all shifters, not just the ones that will never see play, but that's just a personal tiff.
I'm curious to see what else is going to fill those dead levels. I personally still think a few bonus feats (since we're now adding in more flavor abilities as well to fill dead space) wouldn't go awry, even if it was just every 4-6 levels.
I'm still not sure if this class offers up enough to be competitive with druids or hunters in terms of "shifting", but I've said from the get-go that I don't think they could without a radical redesign, and I would assume that'd be too much.
I too am worried about this, but the thought crossed my mind and I figured I'd get at least one thing answered while the iron's hot. I doubt they will do much to help an oozemorph along, but I can hope. Meanwhile I will keep plugging along with my effectively npc ooze that doesn't do much.Another thing to note, would Thousand Faces even function with an oozemorph? Fluidic Form already gives them an Alter Self type ability for a super limited amount of time per day.Point....however I am currently more concerned that my Oozemorph is completely cut off from any equipment/magic items other than Ioun Stones for it's entire career.They will either address the problems (as they slowly have) or scrap the entire book.
Like it or not the Shifter was the main selling point on this book.
I suppose they could just say screw it and leave it as is....but I find that really unlikely....
It seems to me that for the most part (especially with the most recent updates), the shifter is totally playable. Not overly powerful by any means, but playable. The big issue now it the viability of certain archetypes, which we can only hope get addressed (the oozemorph and verdant shifter seem to be the most problematic in my opinion).
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I'm still not sure if this class offers up enough to be competitive with druids or hunters in terms of "shifting", but I've said from the get-go that I don't think they could without a radical redesign, and I would assume that'd be too much.
That in particular was why I figured adding in chimeric forms you could wildshape into by mixing your aspects was a good idea; Druids and Feral Hunters have better wildshaping mechanics overall right now simply because they have the ability to choose from a much wider range of animals. If Shifters have a smaller range of animals, but can layer them two or three at once, it gives them a unique way of operating that no other class in the game can match.
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I do like the ability to make iterative attacks with a natural weapon though.With multiattack feat the other attacks will be even more awesomer! :)Most Shifters don't qualify for Multiattack. It requires a character to have three natural attacks at least in their base form, which only Oozemorphs have as a result of their Morphic Weaponry, and even then it's debatable.
That's on top of how it's a Monster feat, which requires explicit GM approval to use these days.
Nowhere is it said that monster feats require GM approval. It says that they're mainly designed for monsters but a PC may qualify for them as well.
There is still no reason to take the base class or any of the archetypes beyond a dip of a few levels......
Both weretouched and elementalist are workable long term.
Weretouched gets full equipment use, can make full use out of Shifter’s Fury or weapons and secondary attacks, some DR and wild shape feats and stuff. I could see playing one.
Elementalist NOW gets Shifter’s Fury so elemental form doesn't completely suck, just mostly. Elemental Strike though is enough to make it a tempting archetype for the scaling damage boost.
Now, BOTH archetypes [and the base shifter] do VERY well with a dip into Elemental Ascetic.
Most Shifters don't qualify for Multiattack.
Why? Temp abilities qualify for feat prerequisites. Look at brawler's flurry and the two weapon fighting feat they get ONLY during that action. It's usable for prerequisites that call for that feat even though is not permanent.
That's on top of how it's a Monster feat, which requires explicit GM approval to use these days.
I've never found this to be true. Are you talking about PFS?
Okay, so I was just subject to a brainstorm.
Part of the 'complaint' is the 'utility' level of Shifter.
If there could be some way to have a form 'specialist' (someone that focuses on one Aspect) vs. a form 'generalist', perhaps with a bonus for the specialist *in that form alone* but with a broader ability to use Wild Shape for a 'generalist' (perhaps like Druid Wild shape?).
Is this too far-fetched of an idea?
Specialist: Gets Improved Natural Armor/Improved Natural Weapon at 'dead' levels in addition to 'base' shifter
Generalist: Gets unlimited application of Druidic Wild Shape, but does not get access to INA or INW?
Both weretouched and elementalist are workable long term...
Even fiendflesh is usable given the right race. It's never going to be a great archetype, or even one that better than the base shifter, but it's usable.
Okay, so I was just subject to a brainstorm.
Part of the 'complaint' is the 'utility' level of Shifter.
If there could be some way to have a form 'specialist' (someone that focuses on one Aspect) vs. a form 'generalist', perhaps with a bonus for the specialist *in that form alone* but with a broader ability to use Wild Shape for a 'generalist' (perhaps like Druid Wild shape?).
Is this too far-fetched of an idea?
Specialist: Gets Improved Natural Armor/Improved Natural Weapon at 'dead' levels in addition to 'base' shifter
Generalist: Gets unlimited application of Druidic Wild Shape, but does not get access to INA or INW?
I'm fairly sure the "specialist" is the weretouched archetype, hon. It restricts you to only one aspect ever.
the problem with it is that it further restricts an already restricted class in exchange for nothing but damage reduction and the ability to use normal gear while wildshaped.
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Both weretouched and elementalist are workable long term...Even fiendflesh is usable given the right race. It's never going to be a great archetype, or even one that better than the base shifter, but it's usable.
Given the number of "evil-only" archetypes I've seen from Horror Adventures, I suspect the fiendflesh is going to be a non-starter at a lot of tables. Which is fine, but definitely a mark against it.
How's the rage shifter playable? Seems to me you would end up just playing a walking time bomb that the party would try and knock unconscious as soon as you turn on them.
...whereas I was aiming more at "This one form, but *bigger/better/badder*"
With the clarification about shifter weaponry at L3, the weretouched is looking pretty... flimsy at the moment, unless I misunderstood something?
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A Thousand Faces at level 18 seems an insult. At that point, a Greater Hat of Disguise is 2.5% of the Shifter's wealth by level. At the very least, give it to them earlier than a druid. Adding it as a second ability at level 6, or at level 7 would not even be broken. Isn't a Shifter supposed to be better at something than a druid?
Also, the Urban Druid archetype already gets A Thousand Faces at level 6.
Otherwise, the new changes seem awesome.
...whereas I was aiming more at "This one form, but *bigger/better/badder*"With the clarification about shifter weaponry at L3, the weretouched is looking pretty... flimsy at the moment, unless I misunderstood something?
I don't believe you missed anything. Weretouched really needs something to make up for the lack of power it has, even over the base shifter, and that is a low, low bar as this entire thread shows.
Realistically, the best bets would be size increases (which are incredibly valuable for martial types) and/or stat boosts on top of what's already there. Gaining extra buffs like that (around levels 9 and 14, I'd say, to replace chimeric aspects, which are literally just dead class features for Weretouched) would be a huge boon.
Given the number of "evil-only" archetypes I've seen from Horror Adventures, I suspect the fiendflesh is going to be a non-starter at a lot of tables. Which is fine, but definitely a mark against it.Both weretouched and elementalist are workable long term...Even fiendflesh is usable given the right race. It's never going to be a great archetype, or even one that better than the base shifter, but it's usable.
That was the main reason I didn't mention it. Well, that and the minutes/day duration of Fiendish Aspect...
Shifter's Fury is a step in the right direction in my mind, trying to make non-tiger forms more competitive, especially in conjunction with the Shifter's Edge nerf. However, most of the forms that would benefit from this also pretty much couldn't use Shifter's Edge in the first place (their primary Gore attack doing more than your claws would). Tiger is just strictly better (It gets 4 uses of your claw damage, and therefore shifter's edge)
That's not how Shifter Claws works. Shifter Claws only apply to two natural attacks your form has, preferentially applying to claws. In the case of a Tiger form (which only has two claw attacks anyway, so I don't see where you're getting four from) the claws would automatically apply to the Tiger form's claws so you couldn't get the bonuses on the bite attack. In the case of a Stag for example which doesn't have claws, you would get it on the hooves most likely.
Why? Temp abilities qualify for feat prerequisites. Look at brawler's flurry and the two weapon fighting feat they get ONLY during that action. It's usable for prerequisites that call for that feat even though is not permanent.
Brawler's Flurry is explicitly called out as giving access to TWF, which only in FAQ explicitly grants the ability to use those temp feats as pre-requisites.
I've never found this to be true. Are you talking about PFS?
Horror Adventures actually. Plus in general people I've played with are very reluctant to let anyone use a monster feat, even fairly innocuous ones.
Brawler's Flurry is explicitly called out as giving access to TWF, which only in FAQ explicitly grants the ability to use those temp feats as pre-requisites.
And polymorph effects explicitly call out access to natural weapons. Is there a ruling that temp abilities CAN'T be used for prerequisites? Brawler's flurry seems to set a president on the other side.
Horror Adventures actually. Plus in general people I've played with are very reluctant to let anyone use a monster feat, even fairly innocuous ones.
*shrug* never seen ANYONE mention needing pre approval for any of them before and I've used monster feats since horror came out several times. IMO it's a pretty super silly to keep handing out natural attack on races and then act like its "disruptive" to take feats that use them. Even worse to make a new class that revolves around them if that's the case. :P
about the moster feats requiring gm approval,horror adventures was it i think that changed the rules on how to gain them
EDIT: check on d20pfsrd, we listed the source because of the confusion
Well, I'm happy to see both an evolution on the Shifter and a willingness to explore it from Paizo.
Thank you, nice to see feedback is heard.
That said, while some those changes are very interesting - more flexibility, meaning more versatility and potential utility ... in theory, plus some sort of iterative attack - some other really don't (the lv 18 things seem entirely irrelevant). Overall, it still gives a feeling of "not enough", the main problems (to me) still left untouched.
A great first step, though. Waiting for more.
Since we have empty levels at 7th, 12th, 13th, and 17th.
7th- Disease immunity(including lycanthropy) would be nice.
12th- Venom immunity would be nice.
13th- We could move a thousand faces here.
17th- A freedom of movement ability would nice.
So as the Shifter's Wild Shape DID allow for the polymorphic bonuses, just not the Beast shape II abilities... The new FAQ is a change on the following:
- Bat Form: base speed boosted from 20ft to 30ft
- Bear Form: claws boosted to have grab
- Deinonychus Form: claws damage boosted from 1d4/1d6 from level 4~10 to 1d8 damage
- Falcon Form: base speed boosted from 10ft to 30ft
- Frog Form: no changes (Note: Normally, the Tongue attack of a Giant Frog is a touch AC attack, but this is not specified in the Frog's Major Form.)
- Monkey Form: claws damage boosted from 1d4 from level 4~6 to 1d6 damage
- Mouse Form: base speed nerfed from 40ft to 30ft
- Owl Form: base speed boosted from 10ft to 30ft. Gain a fly speed 60ft (avarage)
- Note: for clarity since it's obvious they wanted to add these to the profiles, maybe the natural reach should be added as well, together with a note if a natural attack is a secondary.
Due to the Shifter's claws, Frog form can sub the tongue to a long range reach weapon that deals damage since any number is higher than 0.
Just spotted another huge problem in the Oozemorph clarification.....
"An oozemorph's compression, damage reduction, and morphic weaponry function in its oozelike form and any form it takes via fluidic body, though not in forms it takes via other polymorph effects."
Which means the one thing that made it playable (Using Kitsune or the like) is now more or less locked out as well.....
I'm beginning to think maybe people are right, and it's meant to be unplayable......:(
It also makes A Thousand Faces useless for Oozemorphs, but it is not traded out.
Meh....that comes online so late as to be useless anyway.
The only fix I can see at this point is to give the same number of uses of Alter Self (level+wis mod) to the Oozemorph at first level....with the option to extend the effect by making the con saves.
Actually level+con mod would fit the flavor better....
It also makes A Thousand Faces useless for Oozemorphs, but it is not traded out.Meh....that comes online so late as to be useless anyway.
The only fix I can see at this point is to give the same number of uses of Alter Self (level+wis mod) to the Oozemorph at first level.
Actually level+con mod would fit the flavor better....
If someone is going to do anything to really fix the oozemorph, I would suggest making alter self an at will ability, and making the morphic weapons scale like a shifter's claws. This would actually put them on par with the base shifter at least.
Plus, it'd make for some really interesting oozemorph builds. (I'm thinking wereraptor-kin oozemorph).
For starters though, an explanation saying that you can get the benefits of constant magic item bonuses and at will alter self would at least make it usable.
I think Paizo’s goal is making Shifter a good class (for some definition of good- I personally think they’re there), and making Oozemorph functional without too much guesswork. Archetypes don’t need to be good; there will be more. Oozemorph has a lot of attention because of what it does and how cool the theme is, but Paizo doesn’t normally do a lot of rebalancing on archetypes.
I think Paizo’s goal is making Shifter a good class (for some definition of good- I personally think they’re there), and making Oozemorph functional without too much guesswork. Archetypes don’t need to be good; there will be more. Oozemorph has a lot of attention because of what it does and how cool the theme is, but Paizo doesn’t normally do a lot of rebalancing on archetypes.
The issue is that, as the oozemorph is currently, it's barely usable. First of all, there's some question as to whether the archetype can actually make use of magic items. The damage output is heavily penalized, and it's usability at early levels is severely hampered by the fact that you can only talk, eat, or hold things for 1 hour per day at first level. I do think the shifter itself doesn't require any changes, but some of the archetypes have a few things that really need to be looked at.
I think Paizo’s goal is making Shifter a good class (for some definition of good- I personally think they’re there), and making Oozemorph functional without too much guesswork. Archetypes don’t need to be good; there will be more. Oozemorph has a lot of attention because of what it does and how cool the theme is, but Paizo doesn’t normally do a lot of rebalancing on archetypes.The issue is that, as the oozemorph is currently, it's barely usable. First of all, there's some question as to whether the archetype can actually make use of magic items. The damage output is heavily penalized, and it's usability at early levels is severely hampered by the fact that you can only talk, eat, or hold things for 1 hour per day at first level. I do think the shifter itself doesn't require any changes, but some of the archetypes have a few things that really need to be looked at.
Yeah. I’m saying that a barely useable archetype probably doesn’t need to be looked at. A class is the basis for future archetypes, but a dud archetype doesn’t have a lot of impact. Certainly, I’d love to see Oozemorph get some revisions to make it better, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to say they need to make those changes.
Since we have empty levels at 7th, 12th, 13th, and 17th.
7th- Disease immunity(including lycanthropy) would be nice.
12th- Venom immunity would be nice.
13th- We could move a thousand faces here.
17th- A freedom of movement ability would nice.
Venom immunity would seem to fit with the concept though I think it might be very situational and a pretty limited ability. I don't see how an immunity to disease melds with the Shifter concept. I think an ability that gives a freedom of movement like effect only to natural phenomena and environments might make sense, though woodland stride covers many environmental issues that animals would normally navigate easily. I'm hoping to see some bonus feats added in to help cover the dead levels. Anything that helps the Shifter be the master of wild shaping would be great as well (though I don't have any specific ideas...I defer to the people on the boards who have a much sharper mind for character class evaluation and development).
Jason - Thank you for continuing to revise this class. Your openness to feedback is appreciated and will lead to the Shifter taking its place alongside Pathfinder's other fun classes very soon.
Yeah. I’m saying that a barely useable archetype probably doesn’t need to be looked at. A class is the basis for future archetypes, but a dud archetype doesn’t have a lot of impact. Certainly, I’d love to see Oozemorph get some revisions to make it better, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to say they need to make those changes.I think Paizo’s goal is making Shifter a good class (for some definition of good- I personally think they’re there), and making Oozemorph functional without too much guesswork. Archetypes don’t need to be good; there will be more. Oozemorph has a lot of attention because of what it does and how cool the theme is, but Paizo doesn’t normally do a lot of rebalancing on archetypes.The issue is that, as the oozemorph is currently, it's barely usable. First of all, there's some question as to whether the archetype can actually make use of magic items. The damage output is heavily penalized, and it's usability at early levels is severely hampered by the fact that you can only talk, eat, or hold things for 1 hour per day at first level. I do think the shifter itself doesn't require any changes, but some of the archetypes have a few things that really need to be looked at.
Maybe "need" was the wrong word. It's not that they "need" to make the changes, as much as the usefulness and general enjoyability of the class would benefit from another look at the oozemorph in my opinion.
A different set up
2nd-Keen Senses- Add 1/2 level to perception checks.
7th-Thousand faces
12th-Swift tracker
13th-Heightened awareness- Gain evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge.
17th-Timless body
18th-Freedom of movement
Other ability ideas
Iron stomach- Immunity to nauseated, sickened, and ingested poisons.
Untamed spirit- Immunity to paralysis and 1/2 level on escape artist checks.
Untamed heart- Immunity to charm spells/effect and a +4 vs compulsion spells/effects.
Improved keen senses- gain low-light vision and scent.
Greater keen senses- gain blindsense 30ft.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I figure the oozemorph is a Pathfinder take on something like the Dragon Quest Slime Knight - a monster from the JRPG series that looks like a knight in full plate riding on a slime monster, but it turns out is just an ambitious slime that has partially oozed up into the armor to animate it.
Really it's mostly a case of being poorly named. People expect "guy who changes into oozes" and we got "ooze who wants to be a real boy!" We need a shifter version of Cave Druid I think to get the version that seems to be most desired.
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I figure the oozemorph is a Pathfinder take on something like the Dragon Quest Slime Knight - a monster from the JRPG series that looks like a knight in full plate riding on a slime monster, but it turns out is just an ambitious slime that has partially oozed up into the armor to animate it.
Really it's mostly a case of being poorly named. People expect "guy who changes into oozes" and we got "ooze who wants to be a real boy!" We need a shifter version of Cave Druid I think to get the version that seems to be most desired.
I'd be totally happy with "ooze who wants to be a real boy!" if it was less punishing to play.
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Suggestion to tweak oozemorph to make it a bit more decent...
Perhaps hours/level+CON modifier starting at L1, with concentration checks during stressful situations (such as combat) to retain the form starting low (DC 10-level?) done at the start of each stressful situation, with an inability to regain 'solid' form for a number of rounds equal to the number of hours currently held?
...and then have any gear worn in 'humanoid' form meld with their person (as per Beast Shape and most polymorph effects), to prevent 'Sudden Loot Pile Syndrome'?
EDIT: For even neater visual effect, when it 'melds' with their person it falls into the jellow they turned into, so it moves along with them?
EDIT2: Is there anything wrong with an oozemorph that wants to be a 'real woman'?
EDIT3: Could make the other capabilities of oozes available as the character levels up and gains a greater understanding of their form .
Perhaps as such things are added/used, it increases the difficulty of the above proposed concentration check, sort of like how a kineticist takes burn but not in HP, just a harder to maintain form?
They'd understandably NOT want to push those sorts of limits at first, as they're trying to remain 'solid'?
So what you're saying is that the Oozemorph should make a check that they can't get a bonus towards aside from level whenever entering combat. That sounds completely awful. Mostly because you would chance the fact that you would end up fatigued for at least 1 minute upon failure.
I didn't say anything about being fatigued.
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Nope, but assuming they didn't change how Fluidic Form already functions you would be fatigued.
Ending this transformation at any time reverts the oozemorph back to her ooze form and renders her fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the number of hours she maintained the form.
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Nope, but assuming they didn't change how Fluidic Form already functions you would be fatigued.
Ending this transformation at any time reverts the oozemorph back to her ooze form and renders her fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the number of hours she maintained the form.
I don't see the point in adding any additional penalties to an already crippled option.
If they address the Alter self usage to make it playable, addressed the apparent inability to own equipment, and added some additional abilities to make it worth doing more than a dip....it should be playable.
Shifter's Fury is a step in the right direction in my mind, trying to make non-tiger forms more competitive, especially in conjunction with the Shifter's Edge nerf. However, most of the forms that would benefit from this also pretty much couldn't use Shifter's Edge in the first place (their primary Gore attack doing more than your claws would). Tiger is just strictly better (It gets 4 uses of your claw damage, and therefore shifter's edge)That's not how Shifter Claws works. Shifter Claws only apply to two natural attacks your form has, preferentially applying to claws. In the case of a Tiger form (which only has two claw attacks anyway, so I don't see where you're getting four from) the claws would automatically apply to the Tiger form's claws so you couldn't get the bonuses on the bite attack. In the case of a Stag for example which doesn't have claws, you would get it on the hooves most likely.
I'm specifically referring to the tiger form, which at 15th level says "At 15th level, you gain the rake attack with your back claw attacks (dealing additional damage equal to that of your claw attack)."
While this is oddly worded, this seems to state that you do your claw damage. Since you're dealing your claw damage on the rake attacks, shifter's edge would apply. So you'd be attacking with a bite and then 4x Claw essentially.
You're right, I totally forgot about the Stag's hooves, so it would gain some benefit, but at that point, the hooves would be arguably better than the Gore, which once again makes Shifter's Fury redundant. Why give up the extra damage boost on the hooves just to wave your horns around?
Due to the Shifter's claws, Frog form can sub the tongue to a long range reach weapon that deals damage since any number is higher than 0.
-1 is not a number?
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Personally I would just want a complete redo of the oozemorph and make it a archetype that lets you turn into an ooze instead of a ooze wanting to be "real boy". It would save space and a lot of other issues as well.
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Honestly I think Oozemorph needs scrapped and rewritten, which is bad since while the author made it terrible on purpose, they still did a lot of work on it.
It also seems like the FAQ/Errata was designed specifically to ruin the (seemingly)most common builds on the message boards(oath breaker and Realisitc Likeness) which feels a LOT like the nerfs to the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier to me. If everyone is using it, nerf it so no one does.
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I really don't think "choose a specific race to avoid all of the downsides of this" is something we should generally expect to survive errata. I'm also pretty sure that "teach someone druidic to lose all downsides" was an unintended loophole.
I just figure that most Oozemorphs are going to be Replacement characters past level 6, since at level 6 you never need to be non-oozy during the day.
Sort of a shame that "oozes aren't good at things" is such a huge problem at low levels and not-at-all a problem by the mid-levels.
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I agree, there's too little for the Oozemorph to work with in it's current state. As many have suggested, its basically just a race with 2 class features. If that weren't a kick in the pants, try having your party explain why there is a monster in the town early campaign without causing a mob. If you're gonna go all in on making this archetype Pinocchio, at least make it feasible to actually do it's role in a party.