So I'm looking for rules on a Ghillie Suit for use in mostly non-urban / non-dungeon environment (as would be fitting for such a piece of equipment). This is a mundane item, not a magical one.
My vision is it would allow a sniper to make a ranged shot and rehide without needed to move and carry with it a significant bonus. The benefit of this would be greatly reduced when using firearms due to the sound of the shot going off, but crossbows and bow / arrows should work nicely.
The question is does such a device already exist in Pathfinder? If so where can I find the details on it. If it does not exist what would be a good bonus to add to stealth attempts while using it? I've seen everything from a + 3 to a + 10 (d20 modern) suggested. I'm leaning more towards a + 5 but that might be further influenced by other factors (dark / night, weather, how thick is the foliage around the character, etc).
Suggestions?
Have you ever seen a ghillie suit? In the right environment they make you nearly invisible. A + 2 would be great for a basic camouflage setup but ghillie suits are fairly advanced deals which take a bit to set up. I would say a minimum of not less than a + 4 would be appropriate.
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The closest existing nonmagical item is the shinobi shozoku, which (like pretty much every other mundane skill booster in Pathfinder) grants a +2 bonus. Anything more than that is outside what the system is balanced for, unless you create a mundane item that's priced like a magic item (as the Technology Guide did).
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You said you were looking for rules that exist for such an item in Pathfinder. A masterwork tool for stealth is the closest I can think of.
By the logic you rejected the masterwork tool with the ghillie suit should give you around +15 since it makes you "near invisible" and invisibility gives a +20 to stealth. But obviously that'd be incredibly broken.
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If you want a better bonus, try camouflage netting, which gives +4 but "takes a bit to set up" and gives you the entangled condition.
Camouflage netting must be manufactured to provide camouflage in a single type of terrain, such as snow, sand, forest, grass, swamp, urban, or water. When you hide under the netting in the appropriate terrain, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Stealth checks as long as you remain immobile and prone. Covering up with camouflage netting is a full-round action requiring a DC 10 Survival check (failure means you do not cover yourself correctly with the netting and do not gain its bonus on Stealth checks). You have the entangled condition when using the netting, except your Dexterity penalty does not affect your initiative or Stealth checks. Taking off camouflage netting is a move action, or a swift action if combined with a move action to stand up from a prone position.
Light and weather conditions add +2 to +5, as mentioned in the Perception skill.
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The important factor is not, ‘how awesome is this item’, it’s how are mundane items priced in Pathfinder.
How does a ghillie suit compare to being invisible? Even in forest terrain.
I quite like the idea of mundane kit which grants a more than +2 bonus but is very circumstantial, like the camouflage netting.
I can see a +4 but only in forest terrain, probably at double the cost of the netting because you can move.
Agreed, the camouflage netting seems to be pretty spot on for what I was thinking. As for it being used in other environments, trust me when I say these suits (including nettings and other forms of camouflage) are created for every environment (snow, swamps, mountains, desert, even urban rubble, etc etc).
Thanks for the tip on the camouflage netting.
Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?
Yes.
The Ghillie suite is nearly standard equipment for modern snipers and covert insertion personnel these days.
Two options:
1) treat is as camouflage netting, without the setup time, for something like 4x cost.
2) treat it like a spell, there are several comparable spell effects.
I would also suggest making its use specific to a terrain type, with perhaps half bonus for similar terrain types.
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At that point you are getting really close to the Rogue talent Camouflage from the Advanced Players Guide.
Once per day, a rogue with this talent can craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The rogue needs 1 minute to prepare the camouflage, but once she does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the rogue fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage, whichever comes first. The rogue gains a +4 bonus on Stealth checks while within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage. This ability cannot be used in areas without natural foliage.
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Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?
Now THAT'S what you should be wearing if you want to be nearly invisible!
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I would make the item survival skill dependent. Where it gives a plus 2 benefit with a roll of 5 on survival, add aplus 1 for every 10 points above 5.
Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?
So a disguise kit?
Could the Rogue ability (because it is an "ability") be stacked with the netting to get a + 8 bonus?
Can Rangers do this too? Yes, I know they have spells that do similar things but I'm looking at mundane applications (they are cheaper and not subject to dispel magic).
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I realize that in real life ghillie suits are very very effective, but this is a game that does not reflect real life (at all).
A ghillie suit should mechanically at best be a masterwork tool bonus to stealth (+2). The camo netting shows that a +4 variant comes with all sorts of restrictions that make it not super useful. You have to compare an item you're creating to existing items in the game.
Anything more than a +4 would encroach too much magical item territory.
Personally I would just make this a +2 stealth bonus for the specific terrain, but terrain can be changed by spending 1 hour collecting foliage from the area and lacing it into the suit and removing inappropriate materials.
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Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?Now THAT'S what you should be wearing if you want to be nearly invisible!
I'll sell you a gorilla detector for 10,000 gp.
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Ghillie suits are only a small part of what allows a sniper to not be easily found after sniping.
Smokeless powder, lack of movement (and a corresponding fairly small arc of fire,) extreme range with modern firearms... several things go into making that suit do its job as well as it does. Note, there is also a HUGE skill requirement, before you can get anywhere near optimal use out of them.
Emulating them in the abstraction that is pathfinder combat comes down to a small bonus to stealth.
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Here is the Pf version of the Ghillie suit the Camo blanket Grants concealment to let you make the check and a bonus to stealth when prone that works when sniping.
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One thing to keep in mind; a ghillie suit is a modern invention by a technologically advanced society. Think of Pathfinder as a word that never developed high technology (with the exception of a certain area) because magic took it's place. They didn't need to invent a ghillie suit because magic can do the same thing... or better. The best you'll probably get might be a masterwork item that already gives a +2, like the camo netting or the camo blanket and get a +4. It's optimal use would be by a character who is skilled at hiding in natural terrain, like The King in Yellow mentioned. Some of the training they do in the ghillie suit is sneaking up on their instructor while he watches from the back of a truck. If he sees you, you lose. I watched a special on that. It was amazing. It takes them hours and they are practically invisible and they move sooooo slow. You have to have an incredible amount or patience and endurance to do that. The suit helps, but it's also a lot of skill.
^I thought that only worked against Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts of Traal . . . .
Here is the Pf version of the Ghillie suit the Camo blanket Grants concealment to let you make the check and a bonus to stealth when prone that works when sniping.Is there more to that? it seems odd there are no actual conditions(deployment time, removal time, loss of stealth due to movement, etc.)... I mean it's 12 gold and 2 lbs, and you could potentially take that text to indicate you can just walk around with it over your head all the time for concealment without consequence for just 12 gold.
Nope that's it.
As you noted, there are d20 system (of which Pathfinder is a part) rules for a ghillie suit--in d20 Modern. A ghillie suit offers a +10 Stealth bonus in the specific terrain it was designed for but at the cost of a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls and all Dexterity-based checks. While the bonus is high, it is counterbalanced by both circumstance (only works in one specific terrain type) and notable penalties. These stats probably most accurately reflect how a ghillie suit works.
If you don't want the penalties, I'd just custom make a outfit that offers +4 Stealth in appropriate terrain.
As you noted, there are d20 system (of which Pathfinder is a part) rules for a ghillie suit--in d20 Modern. A ghillie suit offers a +10 Stealth bonus in the specific terrain it was designed for but at the cost of a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls and all Dexterity-based checks. While the bonus is high, it is counterbalanced by both circumstance (only works in one specific terrain type) and notable penalties. These stats probably most accurately reflect how a ghillie suit works.
If you don't want the penalties, I'd just custom make a outfit that offers +4 Stealth in appropriate terrain.
Actually I have no problem with the penalties. My original vision of this was for use by a crossbow sniper, so the idea that the sniper uses a "move action" to rehide without actually moving anywhere works just fine.
Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?
"Do you see the sniper?"
"No just some gorilla." :)A general camo suit like the ninja all black suit, +2.
A highly specialized affair like a ghillie suit using the same leaves as the bush you are blending in with, an extra +4. It would not work anywhere else. How many suits are you packing?
Even the suits used in the real world are made for specific terrain, I don't see this as being that much different.
Besides, Gorilla are VERY sneaky critters and would not draw much attention to themselves.
<chuckle>
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Am I the only one who read this as Gorilla Suit?
This isn't surprising. After all, these sorts of suits do lend themselves nicely to Gorilla warfare!
... I'll show myself out.