|
Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone can provide clarity on this!
So I'm running a Bard. Thanks to Versatile Performance, I'll likely be using my Perform checks rather than a lot of my skills. I know that these checks (I think) replace the entire check - ie. even if I receive a +2 to bluff for wearing fancy clothes, I forfeit that if I decide to use Perform (Sing) instead.
What I DID want to ask about, however, was this PFS-specific rule:
"Once per session, while wearing a faction pin matching your character's faction, you may add 1 to any skill check. If you apply this benefit to one of your faction's favored skills, listed below, you instead roll 1d4 and add the result. For this roll you also treat the faction's favored skill as if you were trained, even if you don't have a rank in it."
Sovereign Court: Bluff, Disguise, and Knowledge (nobility)
Would this essentially mean that, as a Bard, the benefit from Sovereign Court would be less useful to me than (say) one of the other factions? Or, as it's a PFS rule relating to the merch or whatever, would this bonus be applied to the top of the check?
I asked one DM who suggested it'd likely be down to the GM on the day, but I was curious of a community thought on the matter, or even if this is something that's been tackled in the rules at some point.
|
If you're rolling Perform instead of Bluff, you wouldn't gain any bonuses you have for Bluff, but you would gain any bonuses for Perform.
Otherwise you'd be "double dipping" a lot of bonuses.
It would also mean that others couldn't roll Bluff to Aid Another your Perform check. My Investigator rolls Linguistics in place of many social skills, but since Linguistics is Trained Only there are fewer characters available to Aid Another with.
In regards to "table variation", the default would be that you couldn't use the Faction Pin on your checks, but some GMs (probably myself included) would likely handwave it since you spent money on the Campaign.
|
|
Thanks Pendergast for the detailed reply - the difference between your own and Andy's comments are why I'm confused by it!
If I was going to go rules lawyer, I (personally) from an RP standpoint think it makes more sense to use the base Perform skill, and apply bluff bonuses to the check, since it's a bluff check which you're using your own unique skills to do.
So, if I'm using Diplomacy on someone and I have +2 to Diplomacy due to wearing Noble or upper-class clothing, that makes sense in RP to me. Whereas, for instance, if I have +2 to Perform (Wind) because I have a fancy magic Ocarina, it makes a bit less sense that I'd be more effective.
In my view, anyway!
But since I was sure it just works as a straight swap anyway, I had just wondered if - due to the PFS badge being specific to PFS and somewhat separate from the main game - that might apply differently! And if not, I'm still interested to hear the views of experienced GMs like yourself. :D
Also thanks Andy for the move! I actually was thinking to have it in the PFS forums initially, but then I second guessed myself. I appreciate it.
|
|
I just got my bard to 2nd level, so I read the clarifications from 2009 just a few hours ago, but even then, the rule is clear on what kind of check you make:
You check is that of the original skill, e.g. it's a Bluff check, using the total bonus from Perform, not a Perform check. It was clarified that when using Versitile performance, you are performing the actions of original skill (i.e. speaking your bluff, not singing your bluff or speaking your threat, not drumming).
So Aid Another needs other Bluffers, not other Performers.
What is less clear are outside bonuses.
It was clarified by the designer at the time that outside bonuses (e.g. spells and magic items) should apply. The example given was Elven Boots adding 5 to the Perform (Dance) bonus on the Acrobatics check.
So the Faction pin could apply or, if treated more like a Trait or Feat, not apply. Hard to adjucate, since it's an OOC bonus.
|
|
GM Blake - I'm actually kinda confused now. The check is a Bluff check - so everything else is treated as bluff in regard to aiding another with it, or stuff like that.
But the application of bonuses is to utilise Perform bonuses, and not Bluff bonuses? Or vice versa?
Apologies if I'm picking it up wrong.
EDIT: Wait, just read the OP you linked - so you'd apply the (in Diplomacy example) the bonus for the fancy clothes AND the ocarina?
Since James Jacobs said "they should probably stack", I assume that's what he means?
|
|
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
Let's take Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate) and Advanced Versitile Performance to add Disguise to the list of skills for which the bard can suurogate his Perform (Percussion) bonus.
When he uses any of these skills, he does not drum a tune. He does what anyone else doing the skill would do and mechanically replaces +2 bonus he has in Handle Animal, Intimidate, or Disguise from Charisma with his +9 bonus in Perform (Percussion) from 1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 Charisma, 3 Skill Focus (Perform (Percussion)).
Being in a zone of Silence does not prevent him from leading a pack mule or putting on a disguise.
Now, what is less straight forward but appears to be supported by the designer at the time, is how outside effects interact with Versitile Performance.
A Disguise Kit should give you a bonus to the Disguise check. A masterwork drum should not.
A magical mask that gave you +5 to Handle Animal would apply, but a magical drum that gave you +5 to Perform (Percussion) would not.
Feats, traits, racial bonuses, and class features are intrinsic (i.e. you swap them) while items are extrinsic (i.e. you don't swap them). Extremely Fashionable blurs the lines between traits and items.
However, all that said, for the sake of expedience, I would probably just say, use the Total Bonus in Perform (Percussion), regardless of source, and lose whatever bonuses you have in Handle Animal, Intimidate, or Disguise. If you broke it down for me in an easy to read handout, I could go with the "long" way, though.
Yet still, the game wasn't designed with Promotional Boons in mind, so I would let you have your faction pin bonus.
|
|
The second result when Googling 'pathfinder versatile performance.'
That link leads to a comment by James Jacobs.
Although much of Golarion lore was created by him, James Jacobs is not a rules authority. He dislikes being quoted in rules discussions, because his words describe how he, personally, would rule something in his home game.
|
|
The second result when Googling 'pathfinder versatile performance.'That link leads to a comment by James Jacobs.
Although much of Golarion lore was created by him, James Jacobs is not a rules authority. He dislikes being quoted in rules discussions, because his words describe how he, personally, would rule something in his home game.
That's why I said it was less clear and litter my statements on situational modifiers with qualifiers.
However, the ability itself is clear: the check you are making stays the same (e.g. Bluff or Handle Animal), instead you swap the skill bonus to the check with the appropriate Perform skill bonus. Importantly, it does not say, "Make a Perform check in place of the original skill check."
The application of external things like tools and Faction pins need to be adjucated by each GM, but that link covers a lot of dicussion on the subject.
|
|
If you're rolling Perform instead of Bluff. . .
It would also mean that others couldn't roll Bluff to Aid Another your Perform check.
This is incorrect. The bard rolls a Bluff check but replaces his bonus to the Bluff skill with his bonus to Perform. Check remains the same, numbers are swapped.
Compare the text of Versitile Performace to the feat Orator.
You can use a Linguistics check in place of a Bluff check to tell a falsehood or conceal information, in place of a Diplomacy check to change the attitude of a creature, or in place of an Intimidate check to force a creature to cooperate.
Here the checks are replaced.
So too with the Asmodean Advocate archetype feature Devil in the Details.
She can use her Profession (barrister) skill for Bluff and Diplomacy checks.
The checks are replaced.
These sorts of replacements are much more common than Bards with Versatile Performance outside of Core, so the meme drift is understandable, but ultimately incorrect.
EDIT: Tangential to Versitile Performance but important to the original question, you can have bonuses to skills or to checks. Skill Focus gives you a +3 bonus to the skill. Circlet of Persuation gives you a +3 bonus to Charisma-based checks.
Skill Focus (Perform (dance)) helps Acrobatics (Dex-based check). Circlet of Persuation does not help Acrobatics.
Faction Pin bonus gives a +1 bonus to the check.
|
|
There are only three types of d20 rolls in Pathfinder: Attacks, Saves and Checks.
The proper term is "Skill Check".
There is no distinction between "Skills" and "Checks".
Do not be intentionally obtuse.
We're talking about a difference between "bonus" and "check."
Versitile Performance talks about substituting bonuses (and never mentions, checks, skill checks, or skills as checks). Orator and Devil in the Details talk about substituting skill checks.
Bonuses and Skill Checks are not equivalent. My d20 roll is the skill check. My skill bonus is what I add to that roll.
EDIT: Furthermore, there is a difference between "Skills" and "Checks." Skills are statistics on my character's sheet. Checks are dice rolls that I make.
|
|
I am not being obtuse. I was correcting an erroneous statement you made.
"+3 to Diplomacy" means "a +3 bonus to your Diplomacy Skill Check".
In our casual conversation we may shorten that to "Diplomacy Check", but there is no such thing.
It is a "Diplomacy Skill Check".
This tangent was in response to your "Tangential to Versitile Performance" edit.
|
|
There are only three types of d20 rolls in Pathfinder: Attacks, Saves and Checks.This is not correct as both attack rolls and saves are a form of check.
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
Good find.
I will have to search to see where I found my information.
It's how I've been describing the game since I began.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think if you look closely you'll notice the way all this is written up in the CRB just isn't that sharp and precise.
I think all the abilities that let you use one ability to make checks of another kind basically work the same. That is, you use the bonus for the ability you're using (skill ranks, ability modifier, class skill, things that give you a bonus on that skill) and calculate the DC and situational modifiers based on what kind of skill you're attempting.
Example: if you're using the Orator feat to lie to people with Linguistics instead of Bluff, you would use your Intelligence, ranks in Linguistics and so forth to calculate your skill bonus instead of Charisma and ranks in Bluff. If you had an item that gave bonuses to Bluff it wouldn't help, but an item that gave bonuses to Linguistics it would. You're using an Intelligence-based skill so a bonus to that would help, but a circlet of persuasion wouldn't.
But you would look at the Bluff skill to determine the situational modifiers, like a bonus or penalty for having supporting evidence or telling unbelievable things. Just because you're using a different skill doesn't mean all those modifiers go out of the window.