Random questions for our Kingmaker campaign


Kingmaker


Hello!

Player managing my group's campaign via Chemlak's masterful spreadsheet tracker. We're generally using the Ultimate Rulership (UR) rules, but sometimes reverting to Ultimate Campaign (UC) for some pieces (i.e., we're not a fan of the alternate edicts [for holidays, promotion, etc.], so we're just adding the special edicts from UR and keeping the others from UC the same).

Anyways, I have a couple questions I'm hoping folks can help me with. I'm using a second spreadsheet of my own design to plan for future months between gaming sessions, to help things go smoother. I then check the results of what I come up with against Chemlak's, do make sure I'm doing things correctly. I've hit a couple bumps in the road a few months in.

Building new city districts - My interpretation of the UC rules is that preparing a second city district can only be done after the first city district is (completely) full. Then, per UC, you pay the preparation BP, just as though you were building "a new settlement", so in the case of hills, it would be 2BP and would take a month. Does "settlement prep" take the place of one of the hex improvements that you can do that month, or perhaps does it take the place of the number of settlements you can create that month, or perhaps it doesn't count against either? However, per UR, as near as I can tell, you do not need to do any preparation, so no wait time, only costs 1 BP to add a district and it can be done once the first district is half full. Am I on the right track so far?

Settlement consumption - Per UC, I believe consumption for settlements is 1 BP per district, regardless of the "fullness" of the district. UR, however, is more granular, going from 0.5 BP (round down) for a village, 1 BP for a town (one district half full or less) and 2 BP per district for a city/metropolis (regardless of how full the subsequent districts are). Assuming I'm right so far, something strange seems to occur when I hit month 8 in the URule spreadsheet; I go from 1 city consumption to 2, even though, by my count, I still only have one district with 16 lots full, so we're still technically a town, not a city. Then, in month 9, we go from 2 city consumption to 3 city consumption. I still only have one settlement and I only have one city district. Did I miss something? My forecasted build order is below; not looking so much for optimization advice on the forecast, so much as guidance for why the settlement consumption is higher than I would have expected it to be.

Month 1 - Stockyard
Month 2 - House and Tannery
Month 3 - Baths
Month 4 - Brickyard
Month 5 - Stable
Month 6 - Dance Hall and House
Month 7 - Temple
Month 8 - Assembly
Month 9 - Graveyard and Crematorium


The best place to ask would be over in the Ultimate Campaign Kingdom Tracking Spreadsheet as Chemlak will likely see it there fairly quickly and be able to answer your questions for you.


Oh, and it looks like it's because of your fame from your buildings. Page 20 and 21 of Ultimate Rulership has the chart showing the buildings, including a column that shows which ones give you Fame & according to page 22 under "Fame" (first full paragraph on the page) states that any building that provides fame increases the towns consumption by 1.

That, combined with the amount of lots that your buildings are taking up (page 17 of Ultimate Rulership) it looks like your consumption is correct.

(I remembered this stuff after I suggested asking in the other thread.)


HOLY MOLY! I completely missed that paragraph; the ramifications of that rule are huge.

I had tentatively planned on having the capital city be a sprawling metropolis, with at least one of every building. In fact, my original plans call for having the second district being a sort of "capital" district, where 35 out of 36 lots were full of fame buildings. Building all of the fame buildings in our capital city will increase our consumption by a whopping 16+ or so beyond the 4-6 consumption that our city normal would run. That's a huge cost from UR compared to UC.

Thank you for your help on this; looks like we'll have to make some tough decisions about how important "doing everything" will be in the campaign.


Having been a player through most of Kingmaker with one group and then being a GM many years later for another group the most important things I can suggest when it comes to kingdom building are:
1) If you have a plan (like what you've done) make sure to include everyone in the planning/get input from everyone. Sometimes a character might want something for a character driven reason and that is perfectly acceptable (eg: the Cleric of Desna in my current game wanted a shrine to Desna for obvious reasons.)
2) Make a note of what you plan on building as people will forget from one session to the next. (Group I was a player in always argued about what to build, come to a conclusion for the next month or three, and then argue about it again the next week because no one bothered to write it down.
3) Treat the city like a real, living, breathing city. Put in buildings that make sense for a starting village to have (inn, shop, smithy, etc) because it adds an air of realism to it.

Also, for Kingmaker in general: Remember, it's your world. Don't feel like you have to do things in a certain order or only do certain things because it's a role-playing game and it's what you think the book is expecting you to do. My players have come up with fantastic things and have totally turned some of the expectations on their heads once they realized they were able to.
Your GM should be flexible enough as it truly is a sandbox game to let you run with things. But be a nice player and give the GM some notice as to what your plans are... you're working with the GM, not against them. And if you do something totally unexpected ("We're going to avoid this plot-hook and go off in the other direction and explore something that you haven't prepared for just because we can") won't ruin anything for the GM... they'll just have to stop the game so that they can read what's over there and get whatever maps/minis are required thereby cutting into your gaming time.


Thank you for the advice. The trouble that we're potentially running into is that a few of our players (7 PCs) have little or no interest in the kingdom building portion of the adventure path, while a few are rather interested in it and I'm finding myself obsessed with it.

Speaking of obsession....

I remembered when I woke up this morning that I was still looking for that guidance about building new city districts. Do you know if I'm on the right track in my interpretations? And I am also trying to figure out if preparing a settlement takes a "build slot", either building-wise or hex improvement-wise.


Kingdom Building is boring to most people and I found it incredibly difficult to get people involved. Figuring out what would happen was discussed via a group chat between sessions that way everything was (mostly) figured out and it (mostly) prevented some players being bored.
Coming to a consensuses between games as to which buildings/kingdom improvements you want beforehand makes it go much faster. But be aware that sometimes things may to be changed depending on what's happening in the campaign. (Also, I got rid of the magic item slots and would make decisions as to if things could be purchased or not off the top of my head because rolling for them/the bookkeeping is tedious.)

As for districts:
Ultimate Rulership has it so that you can add a district if at least half the lots are filled with buildings and each square has at least one building. Adding a district costs 1 BP; consumption = 2 BP per district. (Page 17, found under "Metropolis" heading).
I don't recall anything about having to prepare the site like you do when you start a new settlement.


A question about events:

At the closing of Month 1, we rolled an event (I think technically there's supposed to be a grace period at the beginning, to prevent crippling things from happening to your fledgling kingdom, but most of the PCs wanted to do one anyways). We rolled the Squatters event.

******************SPOILERS******************

If my reference material is correct, Squatters decrease Fame and Stability by 1 each and increases unrest; our GM also added the flavor of the squatters destroyed the House lot that we had built in the first month (harsh, but he's generally generous, so RP-wise we sometimes get lower "lows" but also get higher "highs", so we're fine with this). We successfully passed a Stability check to disperse them. We then built another House lot that following month, including the 1BP discount for rebuilding a building in its destroyed lot.

My question is, when should we consider the modifiers (i.e., -1 Fame, -1 Stability) permanent and when are they temporary? For Squatters, since we passed the check, the event isn't "continuous", so does that mean that the modifiers were temporary? Or are all modifiers permanent and the "continuous" portion is only referring to the lot being unusable until the event is resolved?


Any positive or negative increase to the city stats are permanent unless whatever is causing it says otherwise.
Same as they're only applied once unless it says otherwise.
Eg: "Outstanding Success (Settlement)" in Ultimate Campaign says "Fame increases by 1, your Treasury increases by 1d6 BP, and Unrest decreases by 2. You gain a +4 bonus on Economy checks until the next Event phase." So the fame and treasury increases are permanent but the +4 to Economy is only for one turn.

(Those are both very general statements that you may have to ignore if it doesn't make sense... I can't think of an instance where they're not true but that doesn't mean they don't exist.)

Also, for spoilers, use (with the spaces after the "[" removed in each instance):
[ spoiler=Movie plot spoiler]This is a spoiler, such as revealing who really did frame Roger Rabbit.[ /spoiler]


Thank you again for all of your help!

I've not been able to find a definitive explanation on how a Fort in a hex with a settlement works. The verbiage that I'm reading says that if the hex becomes a settlement, the hex improvement counts as a barracks and a stables.

Does it mean that you remove the effects that you were receiving from having a fort in that hex (+2 Stability, +4 Defense, +1 Consumption) and then replace them with the effects that you received from a barracks and a stables (+1 Economy, +1 Loyalty, +2 Defense, +1 Law, base gold value +500GP)? This is what I've read implied in a forum post before, but this doesn't make sense to me. Why would having a fort in a hex with your settlement DECREASE the amount of defense it provides, or DECREASE the amount of consumption needed to support it? Plus it would be a horrible exchange - your 24 BP fort gets removed and replaced with 16 BPs worth of buildings.

Perhaps does it mean that you also add the benefits of having another barracks and stables, in addition to the benefit of having a fort? So you go from just the effects of having the fort (+2 Stability, +4 Defense, +1 Consumption) to the effects of having the fort, a barracks and a stables ((+1 Economy, +1 Loyalty, +2 Stability, +6 Defense, +1 Law, +1 Consumption, base gold value +500GP)? This makes more sense to me, but seems VERY attractive, so I wanted get some impartial feedback.

Either way this is supposed to work, am I supposed to add a stables building and a barracks building to my city district map? I'm thinking not.


A fort improvement is meant to be an isolated building from your settlements, something that works as a barracks in the middle of nowhere. But if you happen to build a settlement in the same hex, that Fort becomes a Barracks and a Stable. Which means that you lose some Defense (2 points) because your fort is harder to defend with tents and houses around it, but also means you could build other defensive buildings to stack up that Defense higher than a standalone Fort could have. For instance, barracks + city walls + watchtower = 5 defense, if you add a castle you have stacked your defense way higher.

Does "settlement prep" take the place of one of the hex improvements that you can do that month, or perhaps does it take the place of the number of settlements you can create that month, or perhaps it doesn't count against either?

Here we have some confusion because the rules on UCam say two different things. First is that the preparation is done on a hex, not for a settlement, which is why we can't have two settlements on the same hex. But later it says that you must prepare the terrain for a settlement to create a new district. The latter is more specific, so it takes precedence.

Building a district works the same as building a new settlement. You pay for the preparation cost and by the end of the preparation period, the new district is ready for you to create buildings on it.

Preparing a terrain is a different "slot" than terrain improvements though. Preparing a terrain is only used to build new settlements and districts. While terrain improvement is used to build farms, sawmills, canals, fishery, forts, mines, etc.


What shadowkras said is also my understanding. The fort protects itself and its inhabitants. Once you clear the land and start building houses and farms all around, the fort's defensive value is diminished.


Note that each Fort also increases Consumption by 1 BP. But when they become a barracks+stable, that Consumption increase is gone. That means your defensive structure is no longer so useful, and thus you need fewer people guarding it.

Think about a walled structure with watch positions on all four directions on a high ground. Now suddenly you have hundreds of people living around that, blocking line of sight and causing noise or asking guards for directions or to solve their problems. That defensive position is still useful, but not as efficient anymore.


When a Fort becomes a Barracks and a Stable, should they be added to a City District (i.e., they take up lots), or should it not? I can see it going either way - the fort may not necessarily be within the city, but everything else that you described could still be true.


If they become a barracks and stables, they should take district slots.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just noticed this thread (in case anyone wonders, I do drop in here fairly often to take a look at the latest posts about kingdom building, and I’m more than happy to get PMs from people, or posts in the spreadsheet thread that Warped Savant kindly linked to above).

Anyway, if anyone needs or wants my input, it’s fairly simple: shadowkras is correct. This will hold true for easily 99% of kingdom related questions.

The only thing I’d point out is that the fort and watchtower terrain improvements don’t “become” other buildings. Here’s a copy/paste of the fort text:

Quote:
If this hex becomes a settlement, this improvement counts as one Barracks and one Stables building.

The watchtower text similarly uses “counts as”. This means that the hex doesn’t lose the terrain improvement. I’m actually undecided on whether the “counts as” should actually use up lots inside the settlement, but because the spreadsheet isn’t perfect the only way to simulate this right now is to add the buildings to the settlement and use up lots. I give these for free to my players, naturally.

It’s on my radar to try and get an actual answer to at some point, though, because I have exactly this conversation with my players every single time they create a settlement in a hex with a fort in it.


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That also makes sense. I simply assume they still take up some space within the settlement and for simplicity's sake, ask them to place their fort within the district limits.


Am I correct in thinking that there are no buildings that reduce corruption? I'm not even coming across an event that reduces it. Crime can be managed by building jails, but you just get to accumulate whatever corruption occurs, barring GM involvement?

Scarab Sages

Drage13 wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that there are no buildings that reduce corruption? I'm not even coming across an event that reduces it. Crime can be managed by building jails, but you just get to accumulate whatever corruption occurs, barring GM involvement?

courthouse is -1 corruption, jails and magical streetlamps are -1 crime. Those are the only reducers that I know of offhand...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ultimate Factions from Legendary Games has rules for increasing and decreasing settlement statistics as part of achieving faction goals (and a little bird tells me that it was put in especially because of corruption reduction).


*tweet tweet*


Continued thanks for everyone's assistance!

We created our colony at the Stag Lord's fort and have been slowly expanding toward Oleg's. As we are about to claim them, using a tweaked version of the free city rules, I noticed that they don't seem to have access to water. The GM had tentatively had Oleg's colony claiming hexes to their East and North, so none of those hexes have a river, or are adjacent to a river. As such, in theory, they couldn't build farms.

This seemed incredibly odd to me. My understanding is that one of the suggested starting points was actually Oleg's trading post. So legitimately one of the suggested starting points is where you can not build farms for 3-5 months? That's what it looks like to me, if you rely on getting two hexes on/adjacent to water and build farms on them, then connect the rest of your hexes/farms so that they're touching two other farms.

I looked at running an aqueduct, but that doesn't give water to a farm, just to a settlement, so that doesn't solve the farm issue. Now I'm looking at a canal. It looks to me that the canal hex improvement does not require any sort of connections or adjacency at all. Is that accurate? You can just build a canal hex improvement in a hex that is no where near a river/lake/marsh/ocean and you just created a river network in that hex? If so, I guess I rescind my implied criticism of Oleg's being a suggested starting point.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Farms only require a river if you’re trying to build them in a desert.

Here’s the terrain line:

Quote:
Terrain: Desert (requires canal, coastline, or river), hill, or plain.

Note that the “requires” bit is linked to desert, but separated from the other terrains by the commas. This indicates that it’s only relevant to that one terrain type.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, and before it crops up (because it almost always does): multiple terrain improvements is written less clearly than it should be. Here’s the rule as it should be:

Each hex may only have one of each type of terrain improvement, and only one terrain improvement that does not have an asterisk (so a hex can have a quarry or a mine, never both, but can also have road, canal, farm, and watchtower terrain improvements, for example).


I'm pulling the requirement from the Table: Terrain and Terrain Improvements.

4 Farm cost represents the BP cost to cultivate a hex for farming. a Farm must be within or adjacent to a hex containing a river, lake, swamp, or Canal, or adjacent to at least 2 hexes that already contain Farms.

I feel like I must be missing something.


Keep in mind that Kingmaker was written before Ultimate Campaign, Ultimate Rulership, etc.

The settlements you come across may not conform to the rules that were later laid out.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huh. My bad. The game I’m playing where my players have a kingdom has a river twisting through the kingdom area, so I’ve never needed to use that rule, to the extent of completely forgetting about it.

Quickly checking, the original kingdom rules allowed farmland on any grasslands or hills hex that had roads (2BP for grasslands, 4BP for hills) and no settlement could be in the hex. So Oleg’s was a pretty good spot if a road network got invested in early.

Under UCam, it’s still viable, just head SSE to Nettle’s Crossing, claiming hexes and building roads along the way. Farms become viable 2 hexes away from Oleg’s.


Am I correct that, under UCam/UR, it's feasible just to build a canal in the hex where Oleg's trading post is (not adjacent to any kind of river/water) and the water requirement for farms is taken care of?


Drage13 wrote:
Am I correct that, under UCam/UR, it's feasible just to build a canal in the hex where Oleg's trading post is (not adjacent to any kind of river/water) and the water requirement for farms is taken care of?

Only if you can convince the GM that the act of digging canals will cause them to automagically fill with water despite not being connected to a river or other water source. There's a lot of stuff in even the UCam rules that assumes that the GM is going to adjudicate things in a sensible way, such as not letting the players build a 'city' comprised entirely of 12 breweries, 12 libraries, 12 mills, and nothing else in order to get +24 to each of economy, loyalty, and stability.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Short version: yes, that works.

Longer version: while a canal terrain improvement states that it allows a settlement in the hex to count as if there's a river, the terrain improvement table superscript 4 indicates that farms can be built in hexes that have or are adjacent to a hex with a canal. Canals can be built on desert hill or plain hexes, and there's no requirement for linking them to any sort of existing waterway. As such, a canal can be built in the hex that Oleg's is in, and ticks the requirement for farms in that hex and all the adjacent hexes. As that hex is a plains hex, it will cost 2 BP for the canal, and 2 BP for the farm. Note that this will be both of the terrain improvements you can perform in a single kingdom turn while your kingdom size is below 11.

Edit: but as Indraea says, the GM might veto it.


If you are building your way from a hex with river towards Oleg's, then you probably already have the requirements to build farms there:

Quote:


Farm cost represents the BP cost to cultivate a hex for farming. a Farm must be within or adjacent to a hex containing a river, lake, swamp, or Canal, or adjacent to at least 2 hexes that already contain Farms.

Oleg's is about 5 hexes away from the bandit fort, you need 2-3 hexes with farms along the way so you can build farms on Oleg's.

Actually, if you own the rickety bridge's hex, you can build a farm on the gold mine's hex and make your way with a farm in every hex until Oleg's. The gold mine hex is fine because it's 1 hex away from a hex with a river (rickety bridge's hex).

This means you need the following hexes with farms when noted:

Stag Lord Fort
River Crossing
Rickety's Bridge
Gold Mine (farm)
Forgotten Cache (farm)
Spider Nest (farm)
Bokken's Hut (farm)
Oleg's Trading Post

There are similar paths that require one less hex, but its really all too similar. But I would rather get that gold mine as soon as possible for that extra +1 BP per turn.


So we are running Aqueducts to Olegton, which will allow for water-dependent buildings. How have most people done this? Just say that it allows you to pick/add a water border to the settlement? Trying to figure out how/where to place a Foundry at Olegton's.

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