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An observed creature can't make a Stealth check, but any creature that you aren't observing is considered "unseen" and gets a +20 bonus to their Stealth check (or +40 if they aren't moving.) Doesn't this mean any creature that ever attempts a Stealth check gets a +20 bonus?
If you are unaware of a creature, aware of a creature’s presence, or aware of a creature’s location, that creature is considered to be “unseen” for you. A stationary unseen creature has a +40 bonus to Stealth checks, but this bonus is reduced to +20 if the unseen creature moves (and these bonuses are negated for potential observers with blindsense). An unseen creature benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance) against attacks. In addition, you are considered flat-footed against an unseen creature’s attacks. If you are unaware of a creature or aware only of its presence, you cannot directly attack it. You must first succeed at a Perception check to pinpoint the creature’s location, which then allows you to become aware of the creature’s location (if using an imprecise sense) or to observe the creature (if using a precise sense). If an unseen creature makes a melee attack against you from a space adjacent to you, you automatically determine its location, though this doesn’t stop it from moving after the attack.
Four states of awareness for reference:
When you are unaware of another creature, you don’t even know it is present. Generally this occurs because the creature is hidden, you failed your Perception check to notice it, and the creature
hasn’t yet performed any actions that would alert you to its presence. You cannot directly attack a creature you are unaware of, but it is subject to area effects.
When you are aware of another creature’s presence, you don’t necessarily know exactly where it is. Typically this occurs when the hidden creature has taken some action that revealed its general presence in the area but has successfully used Stealth since then to hide its exact location. If you have succeeded at a Perception check to notice a creature with an imprecise sense other than blindsense, you are aware of the creature’s presence (if you have blindsense, a successful Perception check means you are aware of the creature’s location; see below). You cannot directly attack a creature if you are only aware of its presence, but it is subject to area effects affecting its location. In order to directly attack such a creature, you must pinpoint its exact location with an additional Perception check. If this check is successful and you are using an imprecise sense to pinpoint a creature, you become aware of the creature’s location (see Aware of Location below). If this check is successful and you are using a precise sense to pinpoint a creature, you are observing the creature (see Observing below).
When you are aware of a creature’s location, you know exactly where the creature is located, but you still can’t observe the creature with a precise sense such as vision. Generally, this occurs because you have blindsense, or because the creature is hidden but you have succeeded at a Perception check to pinpoint the creature with an imprecise sense. You must at least be aware of a creature’s location in order to directly attack it, though it is considered to have total concealment from you (see page 253). It is, however, subject to area effects affecting that location.
When you are observing a creature, you can directly perceive the creature with a precise sense. Generally, this occurs when a creature is visible, when the situation makes it impossible for the creature use Stealth to hide, or when you have succeeded at a Perception check to pinpoint the creature using a precise sense such as blindsight. You must be observing a creature to use a ranged effect that targets a specific creature without requiring an attack roll to hit (such as magic missile). You can also make normal attacks, including ones using ranged abilities, against creatures that you are observing. Again, it is subject to area effects that affect its location. A creature currently being observed can’t attempt a Stealth check without first breaking that observation. To break observation, the creature must either mask itself from your precise senses (with darkness, fog, invisibility, or the like, but not with effects such as displacement that still leave a clear visual indicator of its location), move somewhere it can’t be observed (a place with cover, for example), or use Bluff to create a distraction to momentarily break your observation of it.
Is there any way a creature can make a Stealth check without getting that +20 bonus?
Dotting for intensive interest. Though, an ability that lets you hide while being observed would ... probably not benefit from this? Once hidden, further checks to remain hidden probably would have this benefit though.
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Here are some situations the bonus doesn’t apply to:
Attack and Snipe
Stealth using cover (didn’t start the turn stealthed)
Stealth using concealment (didn’t start the turn stealthed)
Using Bluff to create a distraction
Here are some situations it does apply to:
Stealth using total cover
Stealth using total concealment
Starting your turn stealthed and continuing the stealth
Here are some situations the bonus doesn’t apply to:
Attack and Snipe
Stealth using cover (didn’t start the turn stealthed)
Stealth using concealment (didn’t start the turn stealthed)
Using Bluff to create a distraction
Why would the +20 not apply to those situations? Let's read again the rules on breaking observations:
When you are observing a creature, you can directly perceive the creature with a precise sense. Generally, this occurs when a creature is visible, when the situation makes it impossible for the creature use Stealth to hide, or when you have succeeded at a Perception check to pinpoint the creature using a precise sense such as blindsight. You must be observing a creature to use a ranged effect that targets a specific creature without requiring an attack roll to hit (such as magic missile). You can also make normal attacks, including ones using ranged abilities, against creatures that you are observing. Again, it is subject to area effects that affect its location. A creature currently being observed can’t attempt a Stealth check without first breaking that observation. To break observation, the creature must either mask itself from your precise senses (with darkness, fog, invisibility, or the like, but not with effects such as displacement that still leave a clear visual indicator of its location), move somewhere it can’t be observed (a place with cover, for example), or use Bluff to create a distraction to momentarily break your observation of it.
So making a Stealth check using cover is specifically called out as a situation where observation is broken, so you again become "unseen" and the bonus applies. Same with making a Stealth check using concealment. Using Bluff to create a distraction is also explicitly called out as breaking observation, so again you become "unseen".
Also, in order to make a Stealth check to snipe you need to reenter cover. Once you're behind cover, you're "unseen" and get the +20 bonus (which cancels out your -20 penalty from sniping.)
If you have already successfully used Stealth to hide from a creature that is at least 10 feet away, you can briefly pop out of cover or concealment and make a single ranged attack against that creature. As long as you can reenter cover or concealment, you can attempt a Stealth check to hide again as part of that attack with a –20 penalty.
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Broken observation isn’t one of the criteria for being unseen.
Specifically you need one of the following:
unaware of a creature,
aware of a creature’s presence,
or aware of a creature’s location
To get from broken observation to aware of a creature’s presence, you need to first succeed at a stealth check (so the first one won’t get the bonus) or you need to break their line of sight to you (total cover/concealment).
Normal cover/concealment breaks observation. Broken observation=\=unseen.
Example:
Bob is behind a 3 foot wall and is exchanging shots with Alice who is 20 feet away.
1 Round : Both shoot each other.
2 Round Alice shoots Bob. Then Bob shoots back. Falls prone as a swift action and hides as a move action.
3 Round Bob plays first and Dick his partner who is invisible casts haste one him. Then Bob stands as a move, shoots as a standard, prone as a swift and hides with the extra move.
Give me the modifiers for this, maybe a better example would help.
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Broken observation isn’t one of the criteria for being unseen.
Specifically you need one of the following:
unaware of a creature,
aware of a creature’s presence,
or aware of a creature’s locationTo get from broken observation to aware of a creature’s presence, you need to first succeed at a stealth check (so the first one won’t get the bonus) or you need to break their line of sight to you (total cover/concealment).
Normal cover/concealment breaks observation. Broken observation=\=unseen.
Once your observation is broken, my reading is that you are now either Aware of Location or Aware of Presence. So if I run behind a wall into a room you can't see, you are no longer Observing, you are Aware of Presence, so I am "unseen" and get a +20 bonus on my Stealth check. It doesn't matter how I started the round, because once I break line-of-sight, you can no longer "directly perceive the creature with a precise sense" and so you are not Observing.
Example:
Bob is behind a 3 foot wall and is exchanging shots with Alice who is 20 feet away.
1 Round : Both shoot each other.
2 Round Alice shoots Bob. Then Bob shoots back. Falls prone as a swift action and hides as a move action.
3 Round Bob plays first and Dick his partner who is invisible casts haste one him. Then Bob stands as a move, shoots as a standard, prone as a swift and hides with the extra move.Give me the modifiers for this, maybe a better example would help.
My reading:
1 Round: both are Observing each other, no stealth checks are permitted
2 Round: Assuming Bob is hiding behind cover, he has broken line-of-sight and Alice is now Aware of Location, so Bob is "unseen" and gets a +20 bonus to his Stealth check.
3 Round: Bob is now considered Sniping because he fired a shot, so he gets a -20 penalty on his Stealth check. But, since he is hiding behind cover and has broken line-of-sight, Alice is only Aware of Location and so Bob is "unseen" and gets a +20 bonus on the Stealth check. The bonus and penalty cancel, so he rolls the check with a net +0.
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Once your observation is broken, my reading is that you are now either Aware of Location or Aware of Presence. So if I run behind a wall into a room you can't see, you are no longer Observing, you are Aware of Presence, so I am "unseen" and get a +20 bonus on my Stealth check. It doesn't matter how I started the round, because once I break line-of-sight, you can no longer "directly perceive the creature with a precise sense" and so you are not Observing.Broken observation isn’t one of the criteria for being unseen.
Specifically you need one of the following:
unaware of a creature,
aware of a creature’s presence,
or aware of a creature’s locationTo get from broken observation to aware of a creature’s presence, you need to first succeed at a stealth check (so the first one won’t get the bonus) or you need to break their line of sight to you (total cover/concealment).
Normal cover/concealment breaks observation. Broken observation=\=unseen.
Yeah, breaking line of sight by getting into TOTAL cover and TOTAL concealment definitely make you “unseen.”
But in the game there is also NORMAL cover and NORMAL concealment. Those two conditions allow stealth checks but don’t make you unseen.
Run into a new room out of line of sight->total cover/concealment->allows stealth and a +20 bonus for being unseen
Run behind a barrel or into mist->normal cover/concealment->allows a stealth check but no unseen bonus since you are still in sight
Once your observation is broken, my reading is that you are now either Aware of Location or Aware of Presence. So if I run behind a wall into a room you can't see, you are no longer Observing, you are Aware of Presence, so I am "unseen" and get a +20 bonus on my Stealth check. It doesn't matter how I started the round, because once I break line-of-sight, you can no longer "directly perceive the creature with a precise sense" and so you are not Observing.Broken observation isn’t one of the criteria for being unseen.
Specifically you need one of the following:
unaware of a creature,
aware of a creature’s presence,
or aware of a creature’s locationTo get from broken observation to aware of a creature’s presence, you need to first succeed at a stealth check (so the first one won’t get the bonus) or you need to break their line of sight to you (total cover/concealment).
Normal cover/concealment breaks observation. Broken observation=\=unseen.
Yeah, breaking line of sight by getting into TOTAL cover and TOTAL concealment definitely make you “unseen.”
But in the game there is also NORMAL cover and NORMAL concealment. Those two conditions allow stealth checks but don’t make you unseen.
Run into a new room out of line of sight->total cover/concealment->allows stealth and a +20 bonus for being unseen
Run behind a barrel or into mist->normal cover/concealment->allows a stealth check but no unseen bonus since you are still in sight
OK, I see what you're saying. If they're already Observing you and you use cover/concealment to try and hide (but aren't behind total cover or total concealment,) they are still Observing you until you succeed on the Stealth check, so you don't get the +20 bonus. I'll agree with that.
Anyway, it still seems like the rules are not written as they were intended...
The combat bonuses for being stealthy in SF are less than in PF, and the many additive effects available through feats & class abilities aren't there. Sneak Attack is the most obvious, but there were several, up to insta-death.
With the payoffs being less, maybe the designers decided to make Stealth easier, or at least able to compete with Invisibility so the best scouts don't require magic (especially with less such magic to go around).
I prefer the SF rules change (if that's what was intended) because:
1) I think it's iconic for a standard hero team to be able to sneak around a starbase, that is with the scout guy telling them when to dash. This was near impossible in PF without everybody dedicated to it.
2) Stealth works differently for each sense. PF lumped Hide & Move Silently, making for Invisibility having a silencing aura. Awkward. The SF CRB already notes different types of Perception checks. In that vein, I wouldn't give the +20 bonus if they used hearing to try to find the guy in the mist, but since hearing isn't a precise sense, there'd still be that miss chance if they succeeded. Which is how I'd like my "battle on the misty island" battle to go. And clanky robot? Still draws the guards' attention, even if they now have to go investigate due to the robot having made it out of vision.
3) We aren't pressured to build with Perception maxed out...or die before acting. Or at least, there's less pressure. Still some. :)
Plus, it's not like some bad computer game AI is running the characters. They may not detect the guy stealthing, but neither do they forget where they went. Now if there were only a way to rebound grenades off the wall to hit behind those crates...
This came up in our games early on and we don't really know how to adjudicate it. It's tempting to say "the +20 is only for when you're invisible, not when you're around a corner" but I can't tell if we base that argument on logic or Pathfinder bias. The idea that I get +20 from invisibility when the perceiving creature has no line of sight to me never made much sense in the first place.
Making "low-key" stealth less punishing for non-infiltrator characters isn't necessarily a bad thing, it makes the stealth approach a lot more attractive for mixed groups.
I just want to bring up again how ridiculous this is. Any pleb can now use the strategy of "I run into the other room and throw a coat over my head and sit real still," and you have to have a minimum +20 Perception to find them on a natural 20.
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I just want to bring up again how ridiculous this is. Any pleb can now use the strategy of "I run into the other room and throw a coat over my head and sit real still," and you have to have a minimum +20 Perception to find them on a natural 20.
I don’t think an item in your possession like a coat really cuts it. New room behind a curtain or crate? Sure.
I don’t think it’s really that ridiculous. Enter the room and start looking around the crates and throw open the curtain, thus removing their cover/concealment. That’s how hide and seek normally works.
I just want to bring up again how ridiculous this is. Any pleb can now use the strategy of "I run into the other room and throw a coat over my head and sit real still," and you have to have a minimum +20 Perception to find them on a natural 20.I don’t think an item in your possession like a coat really cuts it. New room behind a curtain or crate? Sure.
I don’t think it’s really that ridiculous. Enter the room and start looking around the crates and throw open the curtain, thus removing their cover/concealment. That’s how hide and seek normally works.
I agree, plus:
-The DC isn't automatically 40+, so I'm not understanding the needing 20+ Perception to add to a nat 20. And likely there'd be a circumstance bonus if it's a smaller space. Yes, the DC can be high, but that's because you can't actually see them...so yes, they're hard to see. Keep in mind, they don't have line of sight to you either if they're going this route. They have to break cover.-As well as moving things, a PC might listen for breathing or their tech beeping, maybe even Bluff that you've set a grenade, maybe hide yourself as if you've left, etc.
-The person still thinks the adversary is in that room. They might just have to search more than 3 seconds (as in a Take 10 might not cut it.)
-It's a common action-genre trope for people (villains & monsters too) to be able to hide by ducking out of sight.
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I just want to bring up again how ridiculous this is. Any pleb can now use the strategy of "I run into the other room and throw a coat over my head and sit real still," and you have to have a minimum +20 Perception to find them on a natural 20.
Okay, but this is Starfinder, not pathfinder. You run into a room I cannot see, and I toss a grenade into that room. I don't need to find you. I have easy access to area of effect weapons.
Knowing you are in a general area is good enough if I have hostile intentions. I don't need to find you.
And in real life, you could run into a room beyond my sight. If I try to follow but you are hiding in the next room and real still, it would be hard to find you.
If this becomes an issue, the GM could impose a Perception (Search) check to locate good hiding spots. This would require players to burn a move action in the next room to find a spot valid for hiding in. A cunning player could do this ahead of time and just remember where the good hiding spots were.
But yes, you could run into a room and hide behind the drapes, or behind coats in a walk-in closet, and if you stood still enough it may take them some time to locate you.