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I am currently playing a Pathfinder Society Human Paladin who is about to make the all important jump from level 1 to level 2.
Paladin (Diety- Irori) Level 1
18 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Wis, 8 Int, 15 Cha
Feats
1a- Combat Reflexes
1b- Power Attack
Weapons
Guisarme
Morningstart
Traits
Reactionary
Unscathed (+2 to all existing energy resistances)
I am pretty settled on going for a 1 level dip into Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist. Yay CHA) to gracefully handle the whole "threaten adjacent" aspect of reach builds. I also plan to make extensive use of a wand of "enlarge person". The biggest issue I am running into (as you might guess) is I am pretty Feat Starved and don't have access to Combat Expertise feat trees (trip...)
Hereis my default feat tree option:
1a- Fey Foundling (+2 per dice of magical healing)
1b- Combat Reflexes (Bonus Feat, Scaled Fist Monk)
1c- Power Attack (Bonus Feat, Human)
3- Pushing Assault (Move an opponent at 10' back to 15, to ensure AoO)
5- Exotic Weapon Prof, Fouchard
7- Lunge
9-???
11- Improved Crit
1- UC Scaled Fist Monk/?- Irori Paladin
Pro: Additional CHA to AC (depending on GM, stacks with Scaled Fist Monk)
Pro: Scaling Unarmed Strike Damage
Pro: Ki Pool
Pro: Reduced/Removed reliance on armor (speed and check penalties specifically)
Con: AC stacking VERY GM dependent
Con: Personal Trial << Smite
Con: Divine Bond MUST go on unarmed strike, not the reach weapon
Pro: Allows Combat Expertise despite low INT score (access to trip feats!)
Con: Loss of perception as a class skill
Con: Dramatically Changes Feat Architecture by
1. Making Fey Foundling MUCH harder to keep
2. Giving up the Fouchard as a primary weapon (guisarme would have to do)
3. Making me choosing between pushing assault/improved trip at 3
4. Choosing between greater trip/pushing assault at 5
5. Opening up a TON of other feats (Fury's Fall) that I don't have space for.
So there we have it. Do I keep a "traditional" reach build + tanking/healing? Or do I sell out for trip, but lose out on bonus to LOH, make myself more one dimensional as a player, and reduce dpr output?
I would love to hear your thoughts!
Trip isn't very viable unless you have an appropriate size. The only trip build I know of that's any good is an Elemental Oracle.
From what I understand, making CMB checks are really hard against CR appropriate CMDs, especially against opponents bigger than you.
Pushing Assault is pretty reliable though, right? I like the idea of combining it with a keen fauchard.
Stand Still is a pretty good follow-up feat for Combat Reflexes. You can use it with your unarmed strike or spiked gauntlets or whatever. A generous GM might let you use it with a reach weapon.
Selective Channeling might work by level 9 if you find yourself channeling in combat. Quicken Channel (channel as a move action) or Vital Strike (useful in those rounds you have to move, or make a single attack for some other reason, especially if you are using a Large fauchard (1d10 becomes 2d8, Vital Strike 2d8 becomes 4d8). It's more of a back-up tactical feat, not a primary tactical feat.
Tripping really isn't that hard until mid/high levels. For PFS trip builds work pretty well IMO, at least at low level.
(In my last PFS game my brawler threw a zombie redcap down a chasm using Ki Throw, that was really gratifying.)
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Thanks for the input, it feels like I am leaning more towards the "standard build" than a trip build based on your guys thoughts.
Pushing assault works by making a normal "power attack" but instead of doing extra damage (+2 at lower levels) you move them 5 ft away from you. As long as you hit and they are your size or smaller, you get to move them. It gives up a little damage but forces another AoO, which I suppose you could use to move them back again....
I once made some NPC hobgoblin Fighter 3s that had Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Pushing Assault, and Stand Still with some reach weapons. It was a fun fight.
Tripping really isn't that hard until mid/high levels. For PFS trip builds work pretty well IMO, at least at low level.
(In my last PFS game my brawler threw a zombie redcap down a chasm using Ki Throw, that was really gratifying.)
Sure, Tripping can be effective in the early levels, but against a lot of enemies, it's just not viable.
Let's take a quadruped enemy, something that's very common for a player to face. They get a flat +4 against your trip, already putting you at a disadvantage. They're usually larger than you (minimum +1, to as much as +8, depending on creature size), have equal or more BAB than you (depending on scale), more Strength (due to creatures generally having higher ability scores than you do in this regard, getting worse and worse as you level), and might have similar Improved [Combat Maneuver] feats to counteract any bonuses you might get from your own feats if [chosen Combat Maneuver] is a part of its schtick. Assuming a Medium sized character, anything that is Huge+ in size cannot be tripped by you whatsoever, which means unless you can change your size on a whim, it's just not happening.
And this isn't factoring into account enemies without legs (such as snakes), or flying enemies (such as birds, pterodactyls, and other winged creatures), both of which also cannot be tripped, full-stop (the latter of which requiring an absolutely niche option just to make it possible, the former of which cannot be done no matter what).
Honestly, I only suggested Elemental Oracle because it has the ability to bypass size restrictions with one or two of its revelations in regards to Tripping and Bull Rushing, one of the hard counters to Tripping. It still doesn't resolve the other disparities, such as lack of Strength (without special shenanigans, 36 is the maximum anyone can have), BAB (for an Oracle, it caps at 15, compared to other creatures, which can have well more than 20 BAB based on Hit Dice), Size (well, this part can be shored up as an Oracle, but the benefits are still minimal in worth), or countering Flight (requires using a ranged weapon to do), which is starting to become commonplace by around 7th-8th level, and also where iteratives are starting to shine.
Did I also mention that Trip doesn't do any damage on its own, which means if I trip an enemy an infinite number of times, they aren't any more dead than when I tripped them only once or twice? Which means that Trip is really just a perpetual cycle that doesn't resolve the encounter any faster, by itself.
You won't be able to trip someone every encounter, that is for sure. But personally, I'd rather not play characters that do the same thing every encounter. If you can trip someone in 40% of encounters, which you probably will be able to do in PFS, then I think it's a fun tactic to invest in.
It's a bad idea to invest 100% into trip to the exclusion of everything else. But if you can be half-competent in beatstick mode for when trip is impractical, then spending some feats on tripping can be really fun.
Did I also mention that Trip doesn't do any damage on its own
It does damage when you Ki Throw a redcap into a chasm :) But seriously, it forces them to provoke when they stand, which at least makes up for the attack you used to trip them (except you get a +4 for them being prone, and any threatening allies also get AoOs.) Then if you do go for Greater Trip that's even more pain, but that's already 6th level and your PFS career is (at least) half over by the time that's an option.
I don't think tripping is itself bad, there are certainly some classes that can make it work for a variety of reasons (scaling CMB bonuses, explicit allowances to trip things that are normally too big, the ability to change up tactics on the fly, a good thing you can do anyway, etc.) but the Paladin has none of these so is probably not a great choice for a tripper. Like the OP said, you're feat starved.
Paladin is a strong class; reach builds are a staple of it. I think its a mistake to divert into an inferior ability without strong cause.
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In the long run, I am still working with a reach trip weapon- it will just be a little less successful (about 20% decrease in hit). In my last game with this character, I was able to trip an opponent without all the fancy feats (They charged, provoked, I tripped them, end of charge)- although Greater Trip does allow essentially three attacks (one trip, 2 AoO).
What do you guys think about the Irori Paladin vs regular. I am not sure I want to make the sacrifice of watering down smite and losing flexibility with what weapon divine bond goes on. At least in PFS, everyone is evil. Homebrew campaign might be a different, where having more alignment flexibility would also offer a huge ability.
In the long run, I am still working with a reach trip weapon- it will just be a little less successful (about 20% decrease in hit). In my last game with this character, I was able to trip an opponent without all the fancy feats (They charged, provoked, I tripped them, end of charge)- although Greater Trip does allow essentially three attacks (one trip, 2 AoO).
What do you guys think about the Irori Paladin vs regular. I am not sure I want to make the sacrifice of watering down smite and losing flexibility with what weapon divine bond goes on. At least in PFS, everyone is evil. Homebrew campaign might be a different, where having more alignment flexibility would also offer a huge ability.
Iroran Paladin works great with the idea of not wearing armor, and it would technically stack with the Unchained Scaled Fist dip, because Scaled Fist is outright listed as a Charisma modifier, and the other specifically improves your Dexterity bonus to AC by an amount equal to your Charisma modifier (and it's also limited to up to 1 modifier per level). You'd also get bonus feats and be competent in your "dead zones" as well, meaning you wouldn't have any (at least in the early levels). Also, Stunning Fist Save DC scaling with Charisma instead of Wisdom is pretty powerful for stopping enemies in their tracks, especially if they're in your dead zone.
However, as you stated, you sacrifice offensive power to do so, and I don't see any Monk weapons that are Reach that don't have stupid mechanics (like the Kusarigama, Kyoketsu Shoge, etc). so you gain proficiency with them, and can use Flurry of Blows with them (free attack at full BAB is huge).
Double-chained kama is a good reach monk weapon. You can use it either as a reach weapon or a close-range weapon, so you don't end up with the "only my reach weapon is enchanted" issue, and since you're flurrying you can make both attacks with the same end of the double weapon, so you don't even need to enchant both ends. And it has the trip special feature. The only real downside is the d6 damage die.
But for a smiting paladin, most of your damage is the non-die portion of your damage. Unless your archetype changed how your smite works...
But for a smiting paladin, most of your damage is the non-die portion of your damage. Unless your archetype changed how your smite works...
Yes, it does.
Once per day, an Iroran paladin can as a swift action declare one target within line of sight as his personal trial. The Iroran paladin gains a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature, to his AC against attacks made by the target, and on saving throws against the target’s spells and special abilities. This bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum bonus of +6 at 20th level. The personal trial effect remains until the target of the trial is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains daily uses of this ability. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Iroran paladin can use personal trial one additional time per day. This ability replaces smite evil.
The good news is it's more palatable with stacking effects and has better defensive boosts. The bad news is that he loses a good portion of damage in exchange.
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Humm... I wasn't aware of those particular weapons (I guess I might have more books to get). I think I would still take the extended threat range of the Fuchard, and only really use the monk's flurries for people in the dead zone. If they stay away back from me, they get pushing assaulted, and if they close they get a flurry of knees/feet without having to drop the pole arm.
It probably isn't min/maxed from a damage standpoint, but it does provide a lot of flexibility.
Humm... I wasn't aware of those particular weapons (I guess I might have more books to get). I think I would still take the extended threat range of the Fuchard, and only really use the monk's flurries for people in the dead zone. If they stay away back from me, they get pushing assaulted, and if they close they get a flurry of knees/feet without having to drop the pole arm.
It probably isn't min/maxed from a damage standpoint, but it does provide a lot of flexibility.
Consider this: double-chained kama is two attacks every round, vs the fauchard which is one attack every round. Is an extra crit once every 10 rounds worth losing an extra attack every round?
I am currently playing a Pathfinder Society Human Paladin who is about to make the all important jump from level 1 to level 2.
Paladin (Diety- Irori) Level 1
18 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Wis, 8 Int, 15 Cha
The good news about PFS is that 1st-level characters are basically quantum-characters: you can change anything in them so long as they're not 2nd-level yet.
Consider the following:
str: 14
dex: 14
con: 14
int: 7
wis: 12
cha+ 17
1. Bloodrager [Blood Conduit: Improved Reposition], Extra Rage, Fey Foundling
2. Paladin1
Result: You'll have the same 18 strength (raging) without butchering all of your point-buy stats to pay for it.
I am pretty settled on going for a 1 level dip into Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist. Yay CHA) to gracefully handle the whole "threaten adjacent" aspect of reach builds.
A Scaled Fist's Cha bonus to AC will shut off if he wears armor.
For getting adjacent people out of your face at mid/high-level, you're going to have a Furious armor-spike with these goodies as well; using it in conjunction with Improved Reposition.
3. Fighter1 [Power Attack], Combat Reflexes
4. Paladin2 [Divine Grace], Cha>18
5. Paladin3, Greater Mercy
6. ...etc.
5- Exotic Weapon Prof, Fouchard
If you're a martial character, you never need to take weapon proficiency feats so long as Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stones exist. A cracked one is a nice and cheap at 1500gp. (At some point you'll want the full version tucked into a wayfinder to also get Weapon Focus.)
...aside from all that, don't forget to have your traits squared away. You'll want Dangerously Curious (if you don't plan on rogue or bard levels). For the other one, I recommend Accelerated Drinker to let you power-chug 50gp potions of Enlarge Person at the beginning of combat.
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Slim Jim-
Thank's for your input, there was a lot there that I hadn't even looked at/didn't know about! Specifically- the ioun stone for weapon proficiency. I'll be sure to take other feat options, even if it is "just" improved initiative.
While you wouldn't guess it based on the stats my character has, I don't fully give over to complete min/maxing. Unfortunately for Paladins (and monks) the MAD requirements don't give you much choice. Therefore I end up role playing the down wisdom and INT.
My concern with the bloodrager+fighter+paladin is that it really doesn't fit the character I have envisioned. While this does seem like a more powerful version of the character (I would love to not dump wisdom!), I am not sure that I am willing to make that much of a change to the underlying character. It does seem like a fun build, and the next time I make a melee character I probably will do a bloodrager thanks to this thread.
The only other real concern that I have for this build is how late it all comes together. If you were going to start at level 4 or 5, I think this is a fun build... but surviving until level 4 without LOH or Divine Grace, without getting Power Attack and Combat reflexes (the key components to my currently level 1 character) until level 3 make this character a pretty underpowered.
In fact- I have a one-off module that we are doing here soon with "fresh" level 5 characters. Maybe I'll make this and have a go at it!
While you wouldn't guess it based on the stats my character has, I don't fully give over to complete min/maxing. Unfortunately for Paladins (and monks) the MAD requirements don't give you much choice. Therefore I end up role playing the down wisdom and INT.The 15,14,14,14,12,7 20pt array is so good that it's my "default" for all PFS characters. I.e., I need to convince myself to deviate from it. In a paladin, you dump wisdom if you're a halfling or intelligence if you're a human (because you're always getting at least two skill points/level anyway, and you're the only race without any saving-throw bonuses, so you're better off keeping wisdom higher).
My concern with the bloodrager+fighter+paladin is that it really doesn't fit the character I have envisioned. While this does seem like a more powerful version of the character (I would love to not dump wisdom!), I am not sure that I am willing to make that much of a change to the underlying character. It does seem like a fun build, and the next time I make a melee character I probably will do a bloodrager thanks to this thread.
The only thing I don't like about Bloodrager is that it is named "Bloodrager" (which screams munchkin-cheese in a manner similar to "Slayer").
Call yourself a "Tourette Sorcerer"; it's more fun.
The only other real concern that I have for this build is how late it all comes together. If you were going to start at level 4 or 5, I think this is a fun build... but surviving until level 4 without LOH or Divine Grace,If you're raging with a polearm, most things don't live long enough to get adjacent to you.
without getting Power Attack and Combat reflexes (the key components to my currently level 1 character) until level 3 make this character a pretty underpowered.
Most characters are underpowered at low level, which is why your typical PFS opponent has 6 to 8 hitpoints, and the boss might have 14. -- You do not need Power Attack at 1st level, since almost everything you hit will die instantly anyway. (I often don't bother with it until BAB4.) And most PFS GMs are aren't out to murder your character with saving-throw magic before 4th level, so don't feel a pressing need to rush straight-class features when multiclassing can effectively let you play two "concepts" simultaneously (such as the raging polearm barbarian and a super-saves paladin who UMDs buffs).
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