Is it possible to get a flanking bonus if an enemy has a total concealment towards the ally on my opposite border? To clarify, in this case, the source of concealment is an illusory wall beteewn my ally and the enemy.
Fundamentally, Total Concealment allows the possibility of being flanked?
Another thing, is there a difference when it speaks to threatening the "square" and threatening the "creature"? The paragraph that speaks of "Flanking" seems to refer to the creature and not to the square.
Yes, you can be flanked even if the flanker is totally concealed from you.
I don'see how this is relevant. In my question the enemy has total concealment, and not who attack.
TOZ, that link says that invisible/hidden creatures still threaten and therefore still flank. This is whether an invisible (or otherwise totally concealed) creature can be flanked. I believe the answer is no, because you cannot attack a creature that has total concealment from you. If you can't attack, you don't threaten; if you don't threaten, you aren't flanking.
Ah, but you CAN attack into a square where you only suspect an invisible creature is, suffering the 50% miss chance if there is actually one there. So you CAN attack and indeed DO threaten.
That invisible flankee can't know for sure that you don't have See Invisible up or might have Blindfight/Blindsense/Tremorsense and should darn well keep some of his attention on you just in case.
Put me down for "invisible creatures CAN be flanked" (unless of course they have some OTHER way to not be flanked, like the 360 degree vision monster ability that I can't name at the moment).
The rules are:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack
you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner
You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies.
As far as I can tell, you threaten a square, and anyone in that square is then threatened.
TOZ, that link says that invisible/hidden creatures still threaten and therefore still flank. This is whether an invisible (or otherwise totally concealed) creature can be flanked. I believe the answer is no, because you cannot attack a creature that has total concealment from you. If you can't attack, you don't threaten; if you don't threaten, you aren't flanking.
That's what I think, but there are those who say that it is enough to threaten the square even with an attack with a 50% miss chance to flank, even if you do not know which square the enemy is in.
That's why I have a doubt ...
Good points! I retract my "no" in favor of "yes."
TOZ, that link says that invisible/hidden creatures still threaten and therefore still flank. This is whether an invisible (or otherwise totally concealed) creature can be flanked. I believe the answer is no, because you cannot attack a creature that has total concealment from you. If you can't attack, you don't threaten; if you don't threaten, you aren't flanking.That's what I think, but there are those who say that it is enough to threaten the square even with an attack with a 50% miss chance to flank, even if you do not know which square the enemy is in.
That's why I have a doubt ...
It is enough. You threaten the square, ergo you threaten any creature within the square. Technically, you can threaten empty squares--there just usually isn't much point.
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Yes, if it's a situation where there is flanking with everyone visible it's also a situation where there is a flank if everyone is invisible.
TOZ, that link says that invisible/hidden creatures still threaten and therefore still flank. This is whether an invisible (or otherwise totally concealed) creature can be flanked. I believe the answer is no, because you cannot attack a creature that has total concealment from you. If you can't attack, you don't threaten; if you don't threaten, you aren't flanking.That's what I think, but there are those who say that it is enough to threaten the square even with an attack with a 50% miss chance to flank, even if you do not know which square the enemy is in.
That's why I have a doubt ...
Threatening squares has nothing to do with your ability to make an AoO in there or knowing that something is there. Threatening is "with your currently held weapon and any current status conditions and it was your turn, could you attack into that square." If the answer is yes, you threaten, if no you don't.
It still applies though. The conditions for flank don't care if you can see the guy or not, you've got people on opposite sides of you, you flank.
Are you in sandwhich formation? If yes there is flank.