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Hey Everyone!
I'm looking for community input on my first Homebrew Race. I started the idea because a friend of mine wanted to be a centaur in a campaign. Knowing large creatures/PCs are hard to deal with, I opted to make a new race that was more convenient and fleshed out than the normal centaur one.
All constructive criticism encouraged! Also, if you have ideas in regards to Alternate Racial Traits and Favored Class Bonuses I'd love to hear them!
All can be found on this Google Docs link:
I look forward to your thoughts!
Thanks,
TheMightyEskimo
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well, you would need to have an all outdoor campaign or you might think about a way you can change form into a biped. using the bipedal form for adventuring indoors and keeping horse form all other occasions. we would all like a little bit of horse in us.
I see why you formatted it the way you did, but formatting it to show how you built it is confusing concerning the base speed. In the Base Speed Quality section, the document states that the forest centaur's base speed is 30. But this isn't actually the case, because in the Other Racial Traits section, the base speed is increased by 10. The doc says this is a Medium creature, so I'm assuming the total speed is 40, but I'm not confident of that.
Overall, I like it! It makes sense that there would be varying versions of the centaur, and it's a concept that I haven't seen before.
well, you would need to have an all outdoor campaign or you might think about a way you can change form into a biped."
This has been one of my main concerns. That or cliffs. Usually the GM can determine if it is a good story for a quadruped, but more often than not, a complication will arise where four legs are not better than 2.
The only thing I can think of that would help would be to make sure someone in your party has a high enough Knowledge Engineering skill. That way a pulley system of some sort can be made...
I see why you formatted it the way you did, but formatting it to show how you built it is confusing concerning the base speed. In the Base Speed Quality section"
Thanks for the perspective! Maybe I'll add a more traditional sum up of their abilities, like a traditional race entry does. Then after that give all the details of how I built them.
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An at-will spell-like ability in a PC race should pretty much be lvl0. Barkskin at will is really, really good.
Blindsense because of large ears? I just can't see it. Elves have big ears. They get +2 on Perception. Bats have sonar. They get Blindsense.
Beyond that, it seems pretty solid. Nothing else that screams "so good everyone will want to be one", but good enough that players will consider it.
As for the issue with quadrupeds, I don't think it's too much of an issue. They're only Medium after all, so I don't think indoors will pose too much of a problem.
Some of the more primate-y activities, like climbing and such, could be problematic. Horses are really, really good at what they do: run fast for a long time. But beyond that, they're pretty fragile and rigid. Think about goats and stuff, though. They can get around fairly well. These mini-centaurs might take longer to do a lot of things that bipedal adventurers do, but they don't need to be totally barred from trying. I'd simplify the issue with Climbing, though. A -4 circumstance penalty on Acrobatics and Climb whenever four hooves and a longer, heavier body becomes a detriment (climbing a cliff, walking across a rope bridge, maybe apply it to Stealth when they're clippity-clopping down a stone road).
I would drop Blindsense and maybe give him 40' Move instead.
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Blindsense because of large ears? I just can't see it. Elves have big ears. They get +2 on Perception. Bats have sonar. They get Blindsense.
They actually do move 40'
It's in a confusing place atm though, I'll change that to make it more easily understood ;)And I was really excited about blind sight, and my thought was these are horse sized ears, not just longer pointer ones. If you watch a horse you can see them use their ears like sonar dishes, or for emotion (which is awesome for flavoring your PCs emotions).
It was something to make the race stand out a little more since no regular PC race has it, but it is a little OP when it's in practice.
Maybe I'll modify it to be just really good hearing, or a modified version of Blind Sight. Something that complements low light vision instead of outweighing it.
emove barkskin sla and just increase base natural armor also boost move speed another 10
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An at-will spell-like ability in a PC race should pretty much be lvl0. Barkskin at will is really, really good.
My justification with Barkskin is from the fact they live and breath the forest. Thematically it made since. Also because they get a penalty on their horse half. Maybe instead of getting rid of it entirely, I could limit it to a set number of rounds, instead of 10/lvl
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Quite brilliant an idea, Eskimo, in fact (believe it or not) I too came up with forest dwelling centaurs - with the same features that you've presented - I guess great minds think alike!
From the great words of Robin Williams, "Great minds think 4 themselves!" We're are just two equally great minds subject to the Multiple Discovery idea!
Sorry I can't help myself in quoting Robin Williams ;p
In any case, thanks a lot Jurassic Bard & everyone else! Let's keep them ideas flowing!
I made some minor tweaks from the suggestions so far.
- Blindsense
---I can't get over the idea of a centaur prowling through the forest on a hunt, stopping short, adjusting ear position, and then spotting a practically invisible rabbit in the early morning light.
---So Instead of getting rid of the skill all together, I adjusted it to work like Detect magic, but with sound. Check the Doc for details
- Barkskin
---I agree that the power is a little high for an SLA. But I don't think it's about the AC that it brings, it's the time in which it stays.
---Giving someone a permanent boost in natural armor seems equivalent do to it's lasting effects but not being able to be stacked.
---I think changing the once a day SLA from 10 min./lvl to 1 min./lvl give enough of a bonus when times are desperate, but not enough to last several fights
- Climbing
---Climbing without normal feet would be difficult, but I'm going to leave the negatives as is. I calculated a heavy load with the strength of 14 is over 800lb.
---With the negatives as they are, they would still be able to do vertical stuff with their 400lb horse half. Though I'd leave it to the GM on how quickly they do it.
Do you think these are enough adjustments or should they still be tweaked?
BTW I love your guys' input! It's exciting to hear people liking the idea :D
it would probably be more thematic to just have them have a base natural armor of like 3 and have it thematically be that they have patches of bark for skin rather then the hassle of an at will buff spell
I don't know if I'd agree. Generations of creatures being raised by rangers, hunters, and druids doesn't scream becoming part plant. More so they'd be more in touch with their latent magical ability.
But thanks for your input ;)
Drop barkskin, add a skill bonus, and bring this down to 10 RP.
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Not feeling the barkskin or blindsense. Neither really make much sense to me even with the race background.
I would go with thick skinned for a small bonus to AC in the form of natural armor and Keen sense hearing for bonus to hearing perception checks.
But I do like pretty much everything else. Unique enough to be interesting and sized appropriately.
A stop at a average skilled blacksmith could provide the character with some more climbing friendly shoes. There are a few real breeds of horse that are sure footed in rough terrain. This character won't be scaling walls or smooth nearly vertical surfaces without a horse shoe version of spider climb boots, but they will fair alright.
Good to have some free forestry centaur stuff out there. ;)
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Not feeling the barkskin or blindsense. Neither really make much sense to me even with the race background.
I would go with thick skinned for a small bonus to AC in the form of natural armor and Keen sense hearing for bonus to hearing perception checks.
I would certainly be remiss if I did not take the advice I ask for to heart, so I will make some changes. Maybe I just wanted to make the race unique, and in that process I over compensated and jumped on the racial abilities that no other Paizo race had.
But to quell my neurosis, can someone explain why blindsense and Barkskin are overpowered? Blindsense isn't blindsight, meaning I still need to see things to do anything about what I heard. And granted Barkskin is an enchantment bonus so it can stack with other Natural Armor bonuses, but it has a time limit/1 once per day use. Plus I've grown up with horses, and they are not as thick skinned as you think. Though I guess that could be irreverent since we are talking about a fantasy world. Or is it something different? Does my description of the race not lend itself to these abilities?
I would love to hear why you guys feel they need changing. I'm not being ungrateful I promise. I genuinely appreciate everyone taking the time to read and discuss this idea.
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the bark skin is "op" cuz its not 1/day its at will so its a permanent scaling buff that you can give to the entire party
There's the quality assurance I was looking for! All of the comments make sense now...I completely didn't mean to do that... 'Spell-Like Ability, Greater' & 'Spell-Like Ability, At-Will' are right next to each other on the list I was using. In my head I had always intended on using it as a once per day spell. It also never crossed my mind that you could cast it on someone else. I am extremely bad at proofreading my own work.
Not to beat a dead centaur but, would these changes make it a more appropriate?
1) Change to Spell-Like Ability, Greater
2) Change casting range to: Personal
3) Lower the spell duration to: 1min./level
I could also change it to 'Aspect of the bear' which is similar but doesn't scale and gives more four legged themed bonuses
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Definitely some interesting ideas here, though how you handled some of the things like the climb penalty are a little bit clunky to use (I agree they should have some problems climbing in a lot of circumstances, though).
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i still think making them like cenarious from world of warcraft would be a huge boon for flavor and just give them a flat boost to natural armor and not bothering with the barkskin in the 1st place that way it doesn't feel lost when playing a character who gets barkskin on their spell list or plans on buying an amulet of natural armor
I didn't have Wow in mind when creating the race, however having antlers would be an interesting Alternate Racial Trait. Or I could make the Alternate Racial Trait be Aspect of the Stag, that'll really make them like Cenarious.
I see what you're saying about barkskin. And again you pointed out another thing I didn't notice (That BS and AoNA are both enchantment bonuses thus do not stack) which is lame. Druids or rangers who opt into BS wouldn't really think of buying an AoNA anyways. At least I wouldn't think so. This way a PC could save up for Slippers of Spiderclimb. So in regards to that, I should probably undo the changes I made to the spell itself.
But that being said, your argument is very convincing and I may just give them the Natural Armor Bonus Racial trait. Though I extremely hate how generic it is...
Definitely some interesting ideas here, though how you handled some of the things like the climb penalty are a little bit clunky to use (I agree they should have some problems climbing in a lot of circumstances, though)
What would you suggest to creating smoother climbing penalties?
It's not about the flavor, I can flavor up a rock. It's about the functionality. It's a stagnate bonus with no triggers or specific circumstances. Just an all around, no draw backs, AC bonus. Que Sera, Sera I suppose.
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The climbing bit is the tricky part. Because horses do not climb as well as say a big horned sheep just due to their size. However big horned sheep and other goats can climb some stupidly steep and difficult terrain without thumbs.
Like this
https://www.google.com/search?q=goats+climbing+dam+in+italy&client=fire fox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw47nx r9HXAhVh64MKHUiDDrIQsAQIbQ&biw=1908&bih=966
You can find ungulates in pretty much any terrain on earth, including mountains. And while hooves are not as great as thumbs on all four of your limbs; keep in mind any quadruped race with arms and hands has six appendages to climb with.
So it would be more a matter of upper body strength to pull up their full body weight and if there is enough room for them to fit. They could actually reach much higher than a biped if they just stand on their hind legs with their fore legs up against a wall or just a good balance check.
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The climbing bit is the tricky part. Because horses do not climb as well as say a big horned sheep just due to their size. However big horned sheep and other goats can climb some stupidly steep and difficult terrain without thumbs.
You can find ungulates in pretty much any terrain on earth, including mountains. And while hooves are not as great as thumbs on all four of your limbs; keep in mind any quadruped race with arms and hands has six appendages to climb with.
So it would be more a matter of upper body strength to pull up their full body weight and if there is enough room for them to fit. They could actually reach much higher than a biped if they just stand on their hind legs with their fore legs up against a wall or just a good balance check.
Those are great and logical points. Continuing with that mindset, a centaur wouldn't just have to rely on their upper body on a ladder climb. They could still use their hind legs to support and lift, if they used their legs more than their hooves.
I think using a rope like everyone did in gym class (straight up) would be the hardest for a centaur. Though most other scenarios it could be argued that a centaur would still be able to use their legs to help climb.
I think an Alternative Racial Trait (Mt Goat) would be cool. Giving a climb bonus or even a climb speed on walls/cliffs in replacement of hoof attack and carrying capacity
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...these are horse sized ears, not just longer pointer ones. If you watch a horse you can see them use their ears like sonar dishes, or for emotion (which is awesome for flavoring your PCs emotions).
It was something to make the race stand out a little more since no regular PC race has it, but it is a little OP when it's in practice.Maybe I'll modify it to be just really good hearing,
...My justification with Barkskin is from the fact they live and breath the forest. Thematically it made since. Also because they get a penalty on their horse half.
All kinds of animals position their ears like that. It doesn't give them Blindsense. Case and point: horses do not have Blindsense. Centaurs should not get special abilities from being half horse when horses do not have that ability themselves.
And while Elves may have smaller ears, that's not the only reason they get that bonus to Perception.The role play potential with the additional body language is cool, and it's there regardless of how you handle the mechanics.
You want the race to stand out? How about this: they're *centaurs*, man. How much more unique do you want?
They live and breathe the forest. Okay. But so do mundane animals. They don't have magical abilities.
If you want something unique and mystic, what about some 0-level spells and maybe a dash of Speak With Animals, Pass Without Trace or something like that? Fun without being so obviously beneficial.
I don't care for the penalties to AC against attacks from certain angles or the issues with Climbing. Simple is better. A small bonus to natural armor--just 1 or 2--and a flat (circumstantial) penalty to Climb is the way to go.
Clambering up a steep rock face? That's not harder for them. In some cases, it might actually be easier. Climbing a vertical rope? Yeah, -4. Maybe -6.
You say that horses aren't thick-skinned. They're...much tougher than a person. Natural armor and Constitution get kind of mixed together with a lot of animal entries, but I've seen horses, cows and dogs take what looked like serious punishment and walk away mildly perturbed, rather than significantly injured.
But yes. No Blindsense, I think you can do better than Barkskin, and always simplify things where you can: AC and Climb. This game is plenty complex enough. We don't need more things to get bogged down with.
Thank you for your well articulated arguments and suggestions Quixote!
You want the race to stand out? How about this: they're *centaurs*, man.
When I said I wanted them to stand out, I guess I meant mechanically. Obviously a 4 legged half man half animal creature is going to stand out ;p
...what about some 0-level spells and maybe a dash of Speak With Animals, Pass Without Trace or something like that? Fun without being so obviously beneficial.
I defiantly latched on that. I wanted something that signified mystical, for they spent there whole life around hunters, rangers, and druids. But when I was conceptualizing it I think I thought more of the fighting mechanics rather than the utility. It wasn't about the extra AC at all, and that's why I had such a hard time letting Barkskin go!
So about about this:
2 Lvl 0 Spells - Purify Food & Water, & Stabilize.
1 Lvl 1 Spell - and I actually can't decide between; Feather Step, Underbrush Decoy, or Pass without Trace.
All of these can be useful in interesting scenarios and they can all be flavored up in regards to living in the woods for years.
I don't care for the penalties to AC against attacks from certain angles or the issues with Climbing. Simple is better.
I can get on board with that. Maybe add an increase to armor costs to modify it for the wearer. Though I suppose that my spell like abilities are not revolving around AC anymore, so I could just give an AC bonus. Or both! If the item is tailored/modified for the wearer then they get an AC bonus!?
Maybe meet in the middle for the climbing thing? I feel like hooves that don't rap or bend, like a normal feet do, would still make a precarious climb up a vertical cliff. But as I said earlier that it wouldn't be as hard as a vertical rope climb. So how about a vertical climb (ladder, cliff, tree) *-2 circumstance bonus*. Any climb that doesn't use your lower body (vertical rope, dangling from a cliff) *-6 circumstance bonus*?
Case and point: horses do not have Blindsense. Centaurs should not get special abilities from being half horse when horses do not have that ability themselves... But yes. No Blindsense
Fine. No Blindsense...
How about Scent? Pony's and Horse's have sent. Half animal superheros have sent. Normal centaurs don't... but they also have crazy ability score mods and darkvision.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t know where you’re at with regards to their penalty to Climbing, but I wanted to make an observation that I think gets overlooked: centaurs are centaurs, not human upper bodies slapped on horse lower bodies. By which I mean, they aren’t two different body types that don’t know how to work together, they’re one body type which superficially looks like two body types. And the intelligent and problem solving mind behind the human-like upper body IS the intelligent and problem solving mind controlling the horse-like lower body. And if it’s a part of any culture, then it gets the benefit of all the generations of learning that have passed down throughout the generations. So I just don’t see them as Climbing exclusively with their upper arms, lower body hanging down like so much dead weight. I see them having figured out or having been taught a race-specific rope trick that lets them put their strong though awkwardly built lower body to work, taking an extra moment to rig it correctly, and then employing all six limbs to climb.
And similar scenarios for other climbing attempts. Did you see the dwarves riding the mountain goats in the third Hobbit film? I distinctly remember one scene with those hooved quadrupeds scaling a sheer cliff with better agility than any biped in the entire film, save Legolas.
centaurs are centaurs, not human upper bodies slapped on horse lower bodies...
So I just don’t see them as Climbing exclusively with their upper arms, lower body hanging down like so much dead weight. I see them having figured out or having been taught a race-specific rope trick that lets them put their strong though awkwardly built lower body to work, taking an extra moment to rig it correctly, and then employing all six limbs to climb.
You are completely correct. And I don't believe I wrote down anything to indicate as such, which I'll definitely correct as to indicate players are not suck when a climbing check comes up.
Quixote suggested I simplify the climbing mechanics which will smooth out how I word the penalty.I don't disagree that they'd figure something out throughout the years, but regardless of techniques they'd still have a harder time than a bipedal creature. Especially if they had no way of using their lower half while hanging off a jutted cliff. If I was the GM and my PC suggested a cleaver way to get themselves down a well, I'd probably negate the penalty all together. In a game I played recently my team lowered a jaguar companion down a well with a series of pulleys thanks to a nice Kn. Engineering check.
Did you see the dwarves riding the mountain goats in the third Hobbit film? I distinctly remember one scene with those hooved quadrupeds scaling a sheer cliff with better agility than any biped in the entire film, save Legolas.
I would like to create a couple of Alternate Racial Traits, one of which would be a Mt. Goat with climbing bonuses of some kind. Goat hooves and horse hooves are very different, and the Mt Goat hooves are crazy specialized for them to be able to do those stunts. Crazy how those goats are able to actually do that crazy stuff!
Thank you for your well articulated arguments and suggestions Quixote!
...When I said I wanted them to stand out, I guess I meant mechanically...
...So how about this:
2 Lvl 0 Spells - Purify Food & Water, & Stabilize.
1 Lvl 1 Spell - and I actually can't decide between; Feather Step, Underbrush Decoy, or Pass without Trace......Maybe add an increase to armor costs to modify it for the wearer. Though I suppose that my spell like abilities are not revolving around AC anymore, so I could just give an AC bonus. Or both! If the item is tailored/modified for the wearer then they get an AC bonus!?
Maybe meet in the middle for the climbing thing? I feel like hooves that don't rap or bend, like a normal feet do, would still make a precarious climb up a vertical cliff. But as I said earlier that it wouldn't be as hard as a vertical rope climb. So how about a vertical climb (ladder, cliff, tree) *-2 circumstance bonus*. Any climb that doesn't use your lower body (vertical rope, dangling from a cliff) *-6...
Well first, I don't think a character's *race* should stand out much from a mechanical standpoint. It's the foundation of who they are. Racial bonuses and abilities should be solid, straightforward, and broad.
Most races don't get much in the way of spell-like abilities, if they get any at all. I'd say three 0-level spells *or* one 1-level, not both.
As for your options, I'm not familiar with much beyond the core books, and I feel like a brand new race is enough of a deviation. Pass Without Trace definitely has my vote for the 1st level options.
The level zero ones...I dunno. Stabilize still feels more like "let's tack this on because it's useful" than it does a flavor thing. But it could work. That, Ghost Sound and Flare or something like that.
As for armor, did Paizo not keep 3.5's increased price of armor made for unusual wearers? A centaur basically needs to buy barding and a breastplate. Yeah, it should cost more.
Not sure what you mean about getting a bonus for it being modified, but just remember: the simpler, the better.
The climbing stuff just isn't something you can hammer out on paper right off the bat. There are too many variables. As a rule of thumb, I'd say they suffer -2 or -4 to climb in a way that was more or less designed for bipedal movement, depending on the exact situation. That could go up to a -6 or -8, if it's especially strenuous for them. And a few things would most likely be impossible, like walking a tightrope. But then again, they should he a bonus to other things, too.
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Actually, as forest centaurs, horses aren't that much forest animals compared to deer and stuff. My initial mental image when I heard of them was more like a halfling with a deer lower half. Horse is fine, just mentioning since I had thought about it and the differences in their capabilities came up.
Regarding my earlier comments on climbing, Quixote covered most of it - on a slope, hooves can work pretty well, especially if cloven, and the arms can be involved too; on a ladder, they might be able to use arms and one pair of legs, and for a vertical climb with a rope they can use the hooves to brace against a wall just fine. I feel like it's mostly just the "Climbing a vertical(ish) stone wall or cliff without rope, by handholds alone" and "Climbing a rope to the ceiling with no walls nearby" kinds of climbing that would be really terrible for them. Though they would probably have to do it differently than normal humanoids because of the differences in body plan.
Actually, as forest centaurs, horses aren't that much forest animals compared to deer and stuff. My initial mental image when I heard of them was more like a halfling with a deer lower half...
--THIS. I was going to mention this earlier. If you're going for a mystical forest creature feel, I think that would be a pretty cool way to go. They can hang with druids, gnomes, elves and the fae.
...I feel like it's mostly just the...(vertical free-climbing) that would be really terrible for them. Though they would probably have to do it differently than normal humanoids because of the differences in body plan.
Exactly. And that's just not the kind of thing you need to explain in the race's entry. I mean, you don't see anything about a shark's ability to climb in it's entry. Or an elephant not being able to jump.
Just a general reminder that, hey, these guys are built differently, so they're going to be better at some things (long jumps) and worse at others (stealth on hard floors). Some things might require them to take a lot more time to do (hoisting themselves up a cliff face via rope harness) if they can do them at all.
How about Scent? Pony's and Horse's have sent. Half animal superheros have sent. Normal centaurs don't... but they also have crazy ability score mods and darkvision.
Regular centaurs are also much more powerful than the other races, so you can't look to then them for a fair comparison.
As for scent...the 3rd ed. Dungeon Master's Guide specifically warned DM's of how potentially powerful scent can be. Sniffing out invisible creatures or bypassing a great Stealth check. Just this a monkey wrench into a lot of situations. Not to mention having to account for wind direction.Then again, Barbarians can get scent now. Only while raging, but still.
I'd say it's...probably doable. But if they have scent and you still want them to be equal to the other base races, they shouldn't have much else in the way of significant advantage. Basic stat boots, increased movement, a few 0-level spell-like abilities.
I don't think a character's *race* should stand out much from a mechanical standpoint. It's the foundation of who they are. Racial bonuses and abilities should be solid, straightforward, and broad.
I'd half agree with that. I think some PCs want to optimize the character which needs a compatible race and class. If someone wanted to make a powerful Barbarian, Half Orc is the first thing that comes to mind because of his bonuses. However jumping to the other side, it is a lot of fun to break the norms and create a gnome barbarian. So I get what your saying, I was just over compensating again. It indeed should be broad enough so a PC can use it however they wish, without feeling pigeonholed.
Actually, as forest centaurs, horses aren't that much forest animals compared to deer and stuff. My initial mental image when I heard of them was more like a halfling with a deer lower half...
Yeah I get that, and I defiantly want to add some Alternate Racial Traits that would more or less change the race into a sub species, like goat or deer. But my initial concept was based on the wants of my friend, so I didn't want to deviate too far away from half horse. I imagine a few centuries ago several centaur herds moved into the forest (for one reason or another) and over time adapted to there environment. Does that backstory need work, sure, but it's to keep in alignment of my original concept. Plus I want to hammer out a relatively stable race before creating Alternate Racial Traits.
Most races don't get much in the way of spell-like abilities, if they get any at all. I'd say three 0-level spells *or* one 1-level, not both.
As for scent...the 3rd ed. Dungeon Master's Guide specifically warned DM's of how potentially powerful scent can be...
It is true that a lot of the core classes don't have any spell-like abilities, but there are several newer that do. Even going as far as having one level 1 spell with one level 2 spell. There are even a couple that have one level 3 spell. Most seem relativity combat oriented without much diversity, but I could be wrong. I think I'll drop the second sense bonus and give a level 2 once per day utility spell. I'm feeling Shape Wood. It touches on the concept of inheriting nature powers and having creative utility without being the "do it every time" spell that my prior choices were.
did Paizo not keep 3.5's increased price of armor made for unusual wearers. A centaur basically needs to buy barding and a breastplate
They kept it, but it gets kind complicated. The Unusual Wearers section make it sound that the wearers are normally mounts and animal companions. And the Quadruped Racial Trait says, "members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large)." which to me sounds like they are referencing that even though they are a large creature (Regular Centaur) their human half is a size medium. Which means they can wear the chest piece from the breast plate set, as well as maybe the shin guards. This would still leave most of their lower half exposed. Barding would fix this issue mostly, but there are no rules that say how these two armors should work in tandem. Nor does the Quadruped Racial Trait explain how wearing half an armor set still gives you full AC.
I tried to keep is as simple as I could, and tried to alleviate this issue. Also giving a small bonus to offset the penalty of the cost and time (especially later with magic gear). Plus it gives the PC rules to follow when looting or buying armor, so the GM doesn't have to make something up on the fly or have out of place loot in their games.
"This character can get armor modified to include barding for a creature of its size. Add an additional amount of gold and weight to the original armor equal to ½ the amount for barding of the same type. If the character modifies their armor in this manner the armor gains and additional +1 AC. The armor is unwearable by characters who are not centaurs of equal size until modified in reverse."
The +1 AC may seem extravagant, but with finding a place to modified it, the price increase, and the commenters earlier suggesting I give them a Bonus Natural Armor, I think that it's an interesting compromise. Plus the PC doesn't have to do it if they don't want to. Maybe they'd rather save there gold for other things, or maybe modifying magic armor would be too expensive. This rule leaves it open enough to excuse the lower half being exposed and not feel the need to have a weird penalty like I had created earlier.
...I feel like it's mostly just the...(vertical free-climbing) that would be really terrible for them. Though they would probably have to do it differently than normal humanoids because of the differences in body plan.
Exactly. And that's just not the kind of thing you need to explain in the race's entry. I mean, you don't see anything about a shark's ability to climb in it's entry. Or an elephant not being able to jump.
So I made this into a GM suggestion with a couple of examples instead of being a fast and hard rule. Yet again your guys's logic wins the day ;p
I reformatted the Forest Centaur Doc into a Google Sheet to clean it up a bit, but if you wanted to see where and when I edited I will continue to update the original Doc:
Original Google Doc
Newly Formatted Google Sheet
...it is a lot of fun to break the norms and create a gnome barbarian.
Hey, extra HP, rage and AC makes a pretty solid Barbarian.
It is true that a lot of the core classes don't have any spell-like abilities, but there are several newer that do...
I really struggle to see how a second or third level spell as a racial ability isn't just flat-out better than all the other races. A single powerful ability not only feels more impressive than a bunch of minor ones, but it's also a lot easier to make use of.
Then again, there's apparently a race of weird bird people that have a 60ft fly speed and an ECL of 0. So...yeah. That's ridiculous.I don't know much about any of the supplemental stuff; I tend to dislike all of the added content, since it tends to detract from the story. But yeah, my perspective is definitely skewed towards more traditional thinking and game balance. I just don't buy into the power creep.
They kept it, but it gets kind complicated. The Unusual Wearers section make it sound that the wearers are normally mounts and animal companions. And the Quadruped Racial Trait says, "members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large)." which to me sounds like they are referencing that even though they are a large creature (Regular Centaur) their human half is a size medium. Which means they can wear the chest piece from the breast plate set, as well as maybe the shin guards. This would still leave most of their lower half exposed. Barding would fix this issue mostly, but there are no rules that say how these two armors should work in tandem. Nor does the Quadruped Racial Trait explain how wearing half an armor set still gives you full AC.
That's...a lot of assumptions.
It's not complicated at all; armor for non-humanoids costs double.
And sure, such creatures are *usually* mounts and companions. But not anyways. See: centaur.
You're over-thinking it by a mile. Thy racial trait says they use armor and weapons sized for medium creatures. So a centaur wears armor sized for a medium non-humanoid which, as we know from the existing rule, costs twice as much. There is nothing to suggest that they somehow don't benefit normally from such equipment.
If I had to guess, it's more just to insure they're not running around with Large weapons.
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there are many other ways to get sent several races get it as an alternate racial trait, also a 0 level spell can find invisible creatures so not much being ruined on that end...
...umm literally all races stand out to some degree based on mechanics, humans get a bonus feat, half orcs can get +2 to all saves right off the bat this is compounded even more with class selection, gnome bloodragers can get 1/4th a level for determining bloodline powers, humans get extra spells known for pretty much every spontaneous caster, strix gets flight at level 1 all of these are mechanically distinct.
...okay, so first of all: I have a strong dislike for most supplemental material. I find it tedious and distracting, not to mention that such additions have a tendency to become more and more potent as they're released.
But sure, scent is available by other means. That was my point with the Barbarian. I would still consider it a fairly potent ability, like a static Climb speed or the like. Not obviously awesome, like eye lasers or wings, but still rather useful in a wide range of situations, and extremely useful in a few.And secondly, I think I've demonstrated enough of an understanding of this game, you can assume I can grasp the pretty basic fact that each race has different bonuses and abilities.
I was not saying that a character's race should have NO mechanical effect whatsoever. Because that would be an absurd suggestion, and I try to abstain from making absurd suggestions. What I was actually saying was: a basic race's abilities and bonuses should probably not include anything overly complex, specific, or powerful. Elves have sharp senses, so they get +2 on Perception. They don't get See Invisibility 3/day. Half-orcs are strong. They get +2 Str, not some pseudo-rage.
As for your examples, I don't see how half-orcs get +2 to all saves. And virtually every race/class combo has some kind of alternate favored class bonus, so giving a specific example is hardly evidence of "distinct" mechanics. The Strix...yeah. Can't see how that race is even remotely equal to the original ones. If you wanted to play THE BEST CHARACTER EVA, you'd pick them over elves,dwarves and humans every time. They can fly. FLY. Juse crazy.
1. half orcs get a +2 to any stat they want it doesnt have to be str
2. Sacred Tattoo: Many half-orcs decorate themselves with tattoos, piercings, and ritual scarification, which they consider sacred markings. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity + fates favored = +2 to all saves
3. while sent is useful in the hands of a creative player its really meh otherwise
4. static climb speed is hardly a potent or powerful ability its useful but hardly an omg no that race has that ability no one should ever use it kind of power
5. you over value the power of flight to much sure the strix race can fly but over all its a rather terrible race +2 dex and -2 cha darkvision, some +s to a skill and vs a type of magic and +s vs humans over all unappealing compared to most other races
...okay. So (1) yeah, I know. I was just trying to illustrate a general/passive/simple mechanic versus a specific/active/complex one. And I think I did that. I'm really not interested in playing the "who can accurately regurgitate the most rules about this game" game. I am here to discuss player-made concepts, not beat my chest and show off my gamer prowess.
(2) Ah yes. Traits. I've never used them. They add another layer of complexity that I find totally unneeded. I know a lot of people play games like this to see how high they can make their numbers go, but I've never seen the point in that. If I want to focus that much on numbers, I'll play a video game.(3) Saying an ability is useful in the hands of a creative player...I don't know. Just doesn't feel like a valid argument. Some things are easier to use than others, but the whole point of the combat simulation aspect of the game is to know how to make effective and efficient choices. You have to know how to use any of your abilities, Feats and items for them to be useful.
(4) I never said that a Climb speed was a "omg no that race has that ability no one should ever use it kind of power". I actually said that it was "*fairly* potent...not obviously awesome...but still rather useful." So since you essentially said the same thing, I don't really see what you're trying to debate.
(5) Overvalue the power of a fly speed? I don't know about that. Fly is a 3rd-level spell that is pretty damn hard to pass up. Wings of Flying cost over 50,000gp. Minus the 3,750gp for the +5 to Fly checks, that's still 50,250gp. And thsee guys gets it at level 1.
Flight bypasses so many challenges. Melee-focused combat, pit traps and chasms, labyrinths and mazes, the fact that it's twice as fast as walking over open ground, scouting and environmental obstacles.
I'm not saying that you can't have a good game with characters that can fly. You just can't use some of the staples of fantasy campaigns. One character that can fly radically changes how the party handles a lot of scenarios.
Easy guys. Easy.
Role playing games like pathfinder take a lot of interpreting. Interpreting leads to opinions. Opinions leads to biases. Biases lead to hate. Hate leads to the Dark Side! I love the passion that my subject has sparked, but let's focus it back up please. I've taken a lot of suggestions into account that revolve on your opinions and I think I've gotten closer to a more balanced and cohesive race.
I appreciate all the participation this board has gotten so far!
traits are a fundamental part of the game just like feats and ability scores, you literally cannot play pathfinder with out caring about or dealing with numbers, and if your scenarios can be bypassed by flight, flight like mechanics you need to develop better scenarios.
Traits are a part of the game, but fundamental? Not according to 3rd edition.
And hey, if you like them, use them. Just don't come after me because I prefer not to.Also, I said that I'd rather play a video game if I cared that much about numbers. Obviously I care to some extent. And even more obviously, I deal with them. My previous comments in this thread alone would prove that.
And finally, I would point out that I said :
"Flight bypasses so many challenges...I'm not saying that you can't have a good game with characters that can fly. You just can't use some of the staples of fantasy campaigns. One character that can fly radically changes how the party handles a lot of scenarios..." --so many, not all. Some, not all. A lot, not all.
You clearly play a different game than I do. And that's fine. I'm just trying to balance this new race against the original existing ones to avoid the phenomenon known as power creep.
...let's focus it back up please...I think I've gotten closer to a more balanced and cohesive race.
What else do you feel you need? What doesnt feel quite *right* yet?
Also, it might help if we could get an entry on these guys in plain text instead of a link, without all the extra stuff. That is incredibly useful to show your work, but seeing a version of Forest Centaurs as it would appear in a rulebook would make things a little easier at this point, I think.
Honestly I really like where it's at. Though honestly I liked it before too. The only reason I posted it in the first place was to get more eyes on it. At a certain point in any work, there needs to be some QA. I can only reason to myself so much, you know?
Just in case there are more opinions though I'll post the stats in plane text for easier access. Though I will continue to add the links for people as well: Google Doc ---Google Sheet
Standard Racial Traits:
-Ability Score Racial Traits: Forest Centaurs are tough and wise, but lack a proper education system (+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int)
-Size: Forest Centaurs are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size
-Type: Forest Centaurs are Monstrous Humanoid Lesser (Homebrew)
-Base Speed: (Quadruped Modified) Forest Centaurs base speed is 40, but can be decreased depending on "Barding Modifications" (See rules below)
-Languages: Forest Centaurs can speak Common, but with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Elven, Sylvan, Treant, Orc, Halfling, Goblin, Gnome, & Dwarven
Defense Racial Traits:
-Quadruped Modified: With four legs Forest Centaurs get a bonus to CMD against trip attempts +4
Magical Racial Traits:
-Spell-like ability: Forest Centaurs can use Shape Wood once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the Centaur’s class level.
Offense Racial Traits:
-Natural Attack: Hoof 1d4 DMG - Blunt - Secondary Attack
-Relentless: Forest Centaurs gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to bull rush or overrun an opponent. This bonus only applies while both the member of this race and its opponent are standing on the ground.
Senses Racial Traits
-Low-Light Vision: Forest Centaurs can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light
Other Racial Traits:
-Quadruped Modified: Bonuses are listed above.
Home Brew Editions
Monstrous Lower Body/Tauric Creatures
-100lb extra Carry and Drag when pulling weight with monstrous lower body.
-Tauric creatures’ lower body are normally thick skinned and dexterous enough to stave off attacks on its own, however the character can get armor modified to include barding for a creature of its size. Add an additional amount of gold and weight to the original armor equal to ½ the amount for barding of the same type. If the character modifies their armor in this manner the armor gains an additional +1 AC to its original amount. The armor is unwearable by characters who are not centaurs of equal size until modified in reverse. Barding speed penalties work the same as normal.
-This creature also cannot ride a mount unless it is two size categories larger and any ride checks are made with a permanent -2 if the centaur is required to straddle the mount.
GM suggestions
Suggested that wearable magic items (excluding armor) have the ability to fit their new owner (shoes or gleaves) If things like boots turn into bracers or shoes then the 2 boots will evenly distribute to 4 legs as horse shoes
During climbing checks encourage out of the box thinking to the PC to help with the climbing penalties. Ropes, climbing gear, levitation spells, ext. Nobody likes falling 100ft.
Climbing and other Activities *GM Discretion*
Some activities will most likely need to be handled with care when involving these 450lb hooved creatures. They're going to be better at some things (long jumps) and worse at others (stealth on hard floors). Some things might require them to take a lot more time to do (hoisting themselves up a cliff face via rope harness) if they can do them at all. GMs, be aware of your quadruped PC and the environment they are in, and apply bonuses and negatives to appropriate checks.
*Here are a couple of example that a GM might draw a basis from: Climbing up a cliff with a rope (60s Batman style) may incur a -2 climbing check, and free climbing a cliff side my incur -4 or more, when a standing long jump and a running long jump would probably give the opposite bonus.
A few things:
1. Base speed is base speed. The normal ecumbrance and armor rules are enough.
2. Do they get 2 hoof attacks? It doesn't seem like it, but it would certainly make sense. Are you just sticking with one for mechanical balance?
3. No bonus to Perception?
4. Not a fan of the extra rules for carrying capacity or calculating armor costs. Theread are rules in place for that stuff. No need to complicate things further.
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Nice work so far, I did my 'version' as part mtn goat. By fixing the Str as +2, it helps justify the Climb skill, a trick I used based on split hooves. Reading your post, I can no longer justify their horns being too small to count.
Keep it going! It is a niche to fill.