OK, I give up. I need help folks to make sure I am handling this correctly.
I know it is "traditionally" accepted that Tiny creatures, specifically familiars, can share the space with any other sized creature. The problem is, I cannot find where that is clearly defined or at least clarified.
The issue I have is that it is clearly stated that you can't end movement in the same square as another creature, but the exceptions for small creatures only mention moving, not occupying the space.
The part that makes it unclear is the "move into". Does that mean they can occupy the space? If they can't occupy the space, how do they make attacks?
I've seen a number of threads on this subject but nothing I found clearly states what it is supposed to be. Anyone got some source that can help clear this up.
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Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
OK, giving this another try. I appreciate Nefreet's attempt but that statement is part of the problem. It does not discuss occupying the same space with another creature of a larger size. It only says they enter the square. Does that mean they stay there? If so, is there clear statements that say they can occupy the space of a creature larger than tiny?
If a tiny moves in to a space to attack = move action. Then attacks = standard action. This means they are still sharing the same space at the end of the tiny creatures turn.
Does this help? What situation is creating the question/search for documentation?
If a tiny moves in to a space to attack = move action. Then attacks = standard action. This means they are still sharing the same space at the end of the tiny creatures turn.
Does this help? What situation is creating the question/search for documentation?
The confusion I have is that it also says that you can't end your movement in the same space as another creature unless it is helpless. I am trying to justify why familiars can occupy their masters space but I cannot find anything specific on it and things seem to say both at once. I want to know which rule is correct.
As for move and standard actions I agree but then there is this from the Core book.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
It also says the following later...
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
Again, the issue is it doesn't mention occupying a space, though it does say they can move into. I know it sounds picky but I am looking to see if someone knows of specific language that says a Tiny or smaller creature can OCCUPY the space of another creature that is larger than Tiny.
You share your space with your mount. So you very well can share spaces with a creature with neither of them being helpless. There are exceptions to pretty much every rule.
Tiny and smaller creature are one such exception. They can enter into other creatures spaces and stay there. That is the only possible way for those creatures to attack in melee - something the rules allow them to do.
For what it is worth, from the 3.5 D&D FAQ:
The rule against two creatures sharing the same space doesn’t apply in any situation where one creature is carryingthe other, whether that’s a horse carrying a knight or an elf wizard carrying her raven familiar. As clarified by the answer to the “Which square is a rider in when on horseback?” question, a familiar carried by its master is treated as sharing the master’s space. However, the familiar is in no danger of being accidentally struck by a melee or ranged attack made against the master. If the familiar is visible to an attacker, the attacker could choose to target it with an attack as if it is a carried object (see the sunder rules, PH 158); the familiar should use either its own Dexterity modifier or its master’s, whichever is better.
Of course, as long as the familiar is Tiny or smaller, a wizard doesn’t have to carry her familiar at all. Tiny and smaller creatures can enter or share the space occupied by a Small or larger creature (they must do so to attack, after all). This is a specific exception to the normal restriction against two creatures sharing the same space.
Not that that should automatically hold true for Pathfinder, but it shows the intention of how the rule is supposed to work from the people who wrote the rule, not just copied it (as Paizo did). Pathfinder just copied the rule, so in theory should work the same.
Jeraa,
I understand the intention, I just wanted to see it in writing as they say.
And, yes, the mounted combat rules are one example of an exception to the rule. But it is spelled out.
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
So, I guess the answer to my question is No. There is nothing in the rules that spell it out. Which is fine, I just need to check to make sure.
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You seem to be missing that moving into (as opposed to through) an occupied square means the same thing as ending your movement in an occupied square.
"Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square"
Through: going into an then leaving.
Into: going into and not leaving (stopping/ending your movement).
The big and little creatures in combat is the explicit rule you are looking for.
If Tiny creatures couldn't end their turn in another creature's space, stirges would starve to death. Additionally, the familiar satchel item would be pretty pointless; it'd just be a random box you could leave your pet in while you go adventure. Also, a swarm of Tiny creatures couldn't possibly attack you if it's physically impossible for even one of them to end their turn in another creature's space; it'd be a nonsensical exception.
I know this still doesn't give you a written "this is an exception" line, but you're dealing with a rule that was written for the 3.0e player's handbook, and nobody really ever gave the idea any thought. This is a "players and DMs fill in the blanks" rule.