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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).
You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.
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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.
And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
Runaway Slave/Blood of Dragons gets you gain lowlight using just 1 of your 2 traits, leaving you skilled AND your feat.
With the ability to swap skilled or use a trait, you can usually fit it into a character without issue. ;)
I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
Depending on class and INT score, that 'skilled' racial trait can become nearly as important as the bonus feat.
also, what books are such options in, it does not seem to be in my ARG.
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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
Runaway Slave/Blood of Dragons gets you gain lowlight using just 1 of your 2 traits, leaving you skilled AND your feat.
With the ability to swap skilled or use a trait, you can usually fit it into a character without issue. ;)
And someone really needs to errata that Runaway Slave trait -- low-light vision isn't supposed to have a range of 10 feet, or any range specified at all for that matter.
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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
Depending on class and INT score, that 'skilled' racial trait can become nearly as important as the bonus feat.
also, what books are such options in, it does not seem to be in my ARG.
They are in a variety of Player Companions.
Go to this page and search it for "vision" to see several options.
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I know it's technically the "best" race. But I honestly never pick human because I can't stand having normal vision.
For most classes, human is probably good, but there are exceptions. I wouldn't be keen on playing a human rogue:
1) +2 on one stat is less useful if you split your attribute points among up to six stats. Increasing a 14 to a 16 is weaker than boosting a 16 to an 18.
2) Yet another skill rank? Diminishing returns applies here, with already 8+Int ranks available.
3) A bonus feat is strongest if you can pick up a relevant feat pair at level 1, like Power Attack + Cleave. Now a human rogue could do this with (for example) Dirty Fighting / Combat Expertise + Improved Feint, but it adds less than the classic martial start.
At least the standard abilities don't really cover your weaknesses (AB, AC, saves etc.) and don't augment your strengths (Stealth, vision, rather independent of weapon size etc.).
Now it would be possible to make the best out of a human rogue: Push a main stat to 18 before racial, dump Int and find the best feat pair available. Or use the many alternative racial traits. But that doesn't sounds like something I'd enjoy.
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I need low light vision at the least or I feel either blind or exposed in every dungeon (At least early levels).You can take a racial trait or a race trait for better vision. Humans can easily start with lowlight, darkvision or both.And what makes all these darkvision/low-light vision options really good is that they replace the expendable "Skilled" instead of the must have "Bonus Feat".
Runaway Slave/Blood of Dragons gets you gain lowlight using just 1 of your 2 traits, leaving you skilled AND your feat.
With the ability to swap skilled or use a trait, you can usually fit it into a character without issue. ;)
And someone really needs to errata that Runaway Slave trait -- low-light vision isn't supposed to have a range of 10 feet, or any range specified at all for that matter.
yeah, I listed it mainly for completeness but I'd always go for Blood of Dragons. I can see it being possible for there to be a limited lowlight, especially SU/spell, but I struggle to figure out why it was used in this case.
Klorox: As David knott 242 mentioned/linked, they are from a multitude of books. Use of online sites is pretty much mandatory if you want to find all the options easily.
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2) Yet another skill rank? Diminishing returns applies here, with already 8+Int ranks available.
Depending on the build, it's not enough until you have enough points to put a point into every skill each level. ;)
TriOmegaZero: I kind of like Draconic Heritage better myself. Or Fey Magic if I know the terrain type I'm likely to find easily.
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I prefer full darkvision to low-light or short range.
If it was just darkvision vs low-light, I'd agree. It's the extra's that have me leaning to the others as the situational skill bonus seems kind of 'meh'.
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I find skills quite useful for most characters, since I usually don't see diminishing returns on skill ranks until I've got about 6/level.
Darkvision is very handy, but my group doesn't pay enough attention to light levels to make low-light vision meaningful.
I have no idea how this post has not received more favorites.ROFL because some people don't use the favorite system as a thumbs up?
:) I know ... the very idea....
I used to be very stingy with my favourites - until I realized I could use "list" to keep track of posts that I find really useful or inspiring.
Of course, I'm still not quite as generous with the favourites button as Tacticslion. :)
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I find skills quite useful for most characters, since I usually don't see diminishing returns on skill ranks until I've got about 6/level.
For me it's not that they are skill bonuses but they are situational [concealment/full concealment from light level]. A simple torch drops them and it seems like it'd pop on and off enough that I'd be constantly asking 'do I get my bonuses now? How bout now?'.
If it offered static bonuses, I'd be much more interested even if they dropped significantly.
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While I agree the +2 to what ever you want can be handy as can be an extra feat, they don't offset the racial traits that can be a huge boon.
Like the Dwarf's +4 Dodge AC to anything of the giant subtype. That is far greater than just a +2 in Dex. And never encumbered by armor and darkvison, all pretty solid bonuses.
Or as I was thinking today, the Elven immunity. That pretty much kept a fight from being really devastating in a previous game. As the two Elves managed to raise an alarm before the enemy had gotten with in range.
And I agree, the other races need more background and fluff to make them more appealing. But I suppose I have an easy time building that fluff and some people do not.
But a Samsaran gets: with a Charisma score of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—comprehend languages, deathwatch, and stabilize. The caster level for these effects is equal to the samsaran’s level.
Plus: a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws made to resist death effects, saving throws against negative energy effects, Fortitude saves made to remove negative levels, and Constitution checks made to stabilize if
reduced to negative hit points.
And: A samsaran’s past lives grant her bonuses on two particular skills. A samsaran chooses two skills—she gains a +2 racial bonus on both of these skills, and they are treated as class skills regardless of what class she actually takes.
Which I think more than makes up for the -2 hit to con. And a good roll can fix that as well, since they have a +2 in Int and Wis.
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For refuting "Humans Are Best!" Rhetoric:
Angel-Blooded Aasimar Paladin, with traded in SLA for an additional +2 Strength.
+4 Strength
+2 Charisma
Darkvision
Native Outsider typeSure, not getting Power Attack until level 3 stings. But this is totally viable.
I thought the idea was that you were supposed to roll on that alternative to SLA table, since a lot of the options there were so much more powerful than a 1-per-day daylight SLA. Like getting the ability to stack racial strength bonuses.
Don't get me wrong Angelkin Aasimar are the bees knees when it comes to making Paladins. It's just that +2 Strength +2 Charisma are perfectly fine. Also, the Angelkin alternate SLA is alter self, which is actually a really good thing to have if you need to smell some invisible enemies out or go swimming for a bit.
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Like the Dwarf's +4 Dodge AC to anything of the giant subtype.
That's great... Is this a campaign vs giants? If not, how often is it actually useful?
That is far greater than just a +2 in Dex.
A +4 that works in 1 out of every 100 encounters is far worse than one that works every hour of every day.
never encumbered by armor
Nice, but unless they have a way to increase their speed it's meaningless as 30' races and dwarves move the same in med/heavy armor. Even worse, a fighter's Armor Training does the same thing so it gets duplicated there.
darkvison
A human can have that by trading out skilled.
all pretty solid bonuses
Not that great. You make a game where every fight is vs giant , and it looks better.
Elven immunity
"magic sleep effects" are pretty much low level threats unless you run into a lot of witches with slumber. As such, you're picking something to get you through the first few levels knowing that it'll be useless later on. Myself, I'd likely trade out the ability of something that's useful in the long run.
And I agree, the other races need more background and fluff to make them more appealing. But I suppose I have an easy time building that fluff and some people do not.
*shrug* I find them adequate. I don't want everything set in stone, so I'm happy to have an outline and I can fill in the rest as I please. ;)
1/day—comprehend languages, deathwatch, and stabilize. The caster level for these effects is equal to the samsaran’s level.
Interesting but not game changing.
+2 racial bonus on all saving throws made to resist death effects, saving throws against negative energy effects, Fortitude saves made to remove negative levels, and Constitution checks made to stabilize if
reduced to negative hit points.
Not very relevant. You're as likely to need these as giant dodge bonuses. Awesome in an undead themed game but otherwise...
A samsaran chooses two skills—she gains a +2 racial bonus on both of these skills, and they are treated as class skills regardless of what class she actually takes.
Meh... so 2 traits worth of stuff.
Which I think more than makes up for the -2 hit to con.
Of gods no, not even close. that's -1 fort and -1 hp/level in EVERY encounter for EVERY adventure you EVER go on. Some situational goodness isn't the equivalent to something that negatively influences you consistently for your gaming career.
And a good roll can fix that as well, since they have a +2 in Int and Wis.
Neither is super useful past the +1 will save for a swashbuckler. They missed out on a +1 hit, likely a +1 damage, a +1 ref. As the main job of a swashbuckler is hitting things, samsaran makes them much worse by making them have 2 -2's [con and str] vs a human.
I thought the idea was that you were supposed to roll on that alternative to SLA table
If you can get your DM to turn away when you roll [bribe with pizza], you can get some AWESOME things off the chart. Few sane/sober DM just let you pick what you want off the chart though.
refuting "Humans Are Best!" Rhetoric
Oh, And I want to point out that my disagreeing with Nodrog's conclusions in no way means I agree "Humans Are Best!" there are a LOT of combo's what work great with non-humans. it's not as simple as picking out an isolated feature and saying it's good though, it's got to be the whole package: abilities, stats, FCB, ect. Angel-Blooded Aasimar Paladin is a good example, though that +4 is unlikely most times. ;)
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In the sansaram case, the only reason i see this race be picked at all is "Mystic Past Life" which is one hell of an ability.
Honestly, there are plenty of races i find amusing but probably wont ever play, like dwarves, they just dont add enough that i consider them worth it for the builds i want to play, that simple and I would rather play a decent human PC, than a underperforming dwarven/elven/... one.
In the sansaram case, the only reason i see this race be picked at all is "Mystic Past Life" which is one hell of an ability.
They make great casters, that's for sure. Other than that...
Honestly, there are plenty of races i find amusing but probably wont ever play, like dwarves, they just dont add enough that i consider them worth it for the builds i want to play, that simple and I would rather play a decent human PC, than a underperforming dwarven/elven/... one.
Dwarves/elves can work nicely in the correct build. For instance, dwarf clerics can use Slow + the travel domain to move at 30' in heavy armor and get a bonus on the casting stat and +1 to 2 saves from con/wis. Add Unstoppable for Hardy and you get Toughness and +1 Fort saves.
While human is always a viable option, other races can often make better characters if you're willing to put in the work and look at all the options.
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Is this actually the order that most people pick things in? More often than not, we pick the race before the class, and then build around that. An example:
I want to build a grippli.
Oooh, agile tongue looks like a really fun feat.
I need a caster to use that feat.
Wisdom bonus make a cleric mechanically best, does that sound fun?
That dex bonus makes an ecclesitheurge an attractive option.
I'd better take fire as primary domain to have reasonable attack spells.
Sarenrae.
Yay! That means I can also take sun domain.
It’s noteworthy that, in a thread where the OP is unhappy with his players choosing human for what he perceives to be optimization reasons, his arguments in favour of choosing a samsaran are related to optimization rather than characterization.
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It’s noteworthy that, in a thread where the OP is unhappy with his players choosing human for what he perceives to be optimization reasons, his arguments in favour of choosing a samsaran are related to optimization rather than characterization.
Yes and no.
If we're going to psychoanalyze, we need to be complete about it: it's quite possible he points out the optimization in order to directly combat the notion that you must be human for optimization (which, to him, seems to be the problem), rather than because he wants the other races due to optimization.
Or it's possible that he got caught up in doing so, and forgot to make other points.
Or that he either conflates or unfairly differentiates (or both, in different cases) mechanical optimization and/or RP'ing interesting things or people - intentionally or otherwise.
But, man, half-elves are, like, my favorite race, probably. Except for drow. And changelings. And gith- aasimar. And (Pathfinder) Lashunta. duergar. Oh, and...
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Is this actually the order that most people pick things in?
I have a character in mind before either class or race. Often I'll see a picture, character in [movie-book-comic-ect] or see some neat new rule/spell/feat/ect in a new rule book and go 'that'd make a cool character. With so many options out there, it's easy to find a race/class combo that fit the bill AND is mechanically sound.
nosig: "optimization" may be the wrong word. Human is the easy pick. One 2 abilities and 1 stat to work with so it's HARD to mess up a character. So if you want a quick/easy race that works with any class, it's the best.
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Is this actually the order that most people pick things in? More often than not, we pick the race before the class, and then build around that. An example:
I want to build a grippli.
Oooh, agile tongue looks like a really fun feat.
I need a caster to use that feat.
Wisdom bonus make a cleric mechanically best, does that sound fun?
That dex bonus makes an ecclesitheurge an attractive option.
I'd better take fire as primary domain to have reasonable attack spells.
Sarenrae.
Yay! That means I can also take sun domain.
I usually pick a class and a theme for the class is applicable, (like cleric, then deciding between negative and positive and if I'm going to be a caster or melee cleric) after that I look for race that fits that build (so a str boost for melee cleric, a wis boost for caster cleric) and has any cool stuff.
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Personally, I sometimes worry that the race/class concepts I want to play are too far afield and are going to either hog the spotlight, or are going to make extra work for the GM.
Like the two characters I want to play after perusing the last two player companions at the FLGS are a Cecaelia Brawler and a Waker May Paladin of Sarenae. I feel like if I'm just playing "Jim, the Human Bard" it's going to be a lot less of a problem at the table.
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Cecaelia Brawler
I have a few ideas for a Cecaelia in the right game: rogue, hunter or maybe a warpriest: it's hard to pick as they are all great combo's. ;)
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I tend to start with a concept. Sometimes that comes from a cool feat or other feature, such as the half orc feat ferocious summons. When I saw that I decided I wanted to build a character to make use of it, and I finished up with a half orc separatist cleric of Lamashtu.
Sometimes I start out with a class. I wanted to try playing an alchemist. He ended up a half orc too, because I preferred to go melee rather than bomber, and I discovered the deathless initiate feat and wanted to incorporate that.
Sometimes I start out with race. I wanted to play an elemental race for Season 8 of PFS, and I wanted to make a character that wasn't a melee specialist with dumped CHA (because I have a few of those), so I looked at Ifrit and came up with a story, then a build that suited the story.
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In my experience players mostly choose Humans as their "to go" race because of the mechanical advantage. I can remember 3rd edition... there were way less humans in play back when they didn't get a bonus to stats, and "just" whatever feat they wanted at game start and extra skills.
PF has been extremely generous with humans giving them access to a whole lot of customization, allowing them to pick what they wanted. This is the main "selling point " for humans: they get to choose, other races have fixed bonuses, which means they are good or even great at some roles and terrible at others. You can certainly build an excellent dwarf batte cleric or elven blaster wizard, you are never going to have a wonderful dwarven bard or elven barbarian.
That said there's middle ground here: you can build competitive characters starting from most race/class mixes. A dwarf wizard is surprisingly viable as is an elven archer fighter for example.
P. S.
Racial abilities like "hardy" are easily worth a feat, especially if your character is going to get targetted by spells and magic a lot. The fact you are often able to increase the effectiveness makes them even better. Someone noted how the dwarven +4 dodge bonus is only useful against giants. True but now the option exists for the ability to apply against everyone, and to get an unspecified +2 bonus to hit and wound against them as long as your character suffers at least 1 point of damage in combat. There's very little in game coming near the effectiveness of such bonuses for melee types, and that's just one example of such combinations. Of course building this way requires good system knowledge.
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you are never going to have a wonderful dwarven bard or elven barbarian
If you focus on playing to their strengths, it might work out quite well. A tanky dwarven bard and a highly mobile elven barbarian come to my mind:
Starts with Cha 14-2, good enough for level 6 spells at level 16
Battleaxe
Medium armor (thanks to dwarven FCB and slow but steady)
Frontliner, especially if orcs or giants are around
Doesn't do much damage, but can hold off some foes
Sariel the swift sword
Starts with Con 14-2, still more HP than a d10 class gets
Light armor for high speed, profits from higher Dex here
Navigates the battlefield with Acrobatics and high speed
Might even sacrifice 5 HP from FCB for +5 speed (to catch foes more easily)
Enjoys pouncing from Stealth and with slightly better initiative
Gets slightly more skill ranks and is slightly better in several skills (many are tied to Dex or Int)
Can trade away Elven Magic for stealthier movement (Silent Hunter) or +2 dodge AC vs. chaotic creatures (Vigilance, makes +2/3 AC in average). Constant detect magic (Fey Sighted) is a third option - thematic for caster hunters.
Can also trade away Weapon Familiarity for +5 speed (Long-Limbed) or good swimming (Spirit of the Waters, also needs Elven Magic to be traded). You don't need these elven weapons anyway.
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@SheepishEidolon : I agree to an extent but as everything else it depends on the kind of game you and your DM play. While a dwarven wizard starts with Int 18 and probably Con 16 without having to dump anything but Cha, a dwarven Bard starting with Cha 12 isn't going to be great. A good player can make him shine anyway for sure but mechanically that bard will have a big disadvantage if confronted with someone who has a bonus to Cha instead than a starting negative modifier.
Around 9th is the point at which you realize that your lousiest feat isn't pulling its weight relative to what you could have had in a non-human race choice.
Take the humble gnome in 20pt buy. 14,14,13,13,12,12
str12, dex14, con15, int13, wis12, cha14
That's a lot of positive bonuses.
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If we're going to psychoanalyze, we need to be complete about it: it's quite possible he points out the optimization in order to directly combat the notion that you must be human for optimization (which, to him, seems to be the problem), rather than because he wants the other races due to optimization.Or it's possible that he got caught up in doing so, and forgot to make other points.
Or that he either conflates or unfairly differentiates (or both, in different cases) mechanical optimization and/or RP'ing interesting things or people - intentionally or otherwise.
Or he has worked too many 14 hour days and hasn't always worded posts really well... However the discussion is quite interesting and despite my poor ramblings, I am enjoying it. And "optimization" might be too strong of a word.
With a little thought and only an 11 hour work day... Perhaps I am thinking it as they can't see the forest thru all the trees. Or that they have focused too much on a few mechanics, they are missing other viable options.
Around 9th is the point at which you realize that your lousiest feat isn't pulling its weight relative to what you could have had in a non-human race choice.
Take the humble gnome in 20pt buy. 14,14,13,13,12,12
str12, dex14, con15, int13, wis12, cha14
That's a lot of positive bonuses.
This doesn't follow. All those positive bonuses stop "pulling its weight" as you get to 9th as DC/AC/ect continue to rise and those bonuses stay the same. You need a 30 DC, the difference between that gnome and a human are the equivalent of a trait or a masterwork tool. Vs a scaling feat like power attack/deadly aim/piranha strike, the bonuses are the clear loser. Or, for example, a feat that allows your maxed out Cha to fill in for your attack/damage...
If the feat stopped pulling it's weight at 9th, you might have picked the wrong feat.
This doesn't follow. All those positive bonuses stop "pulling its weight" as you get to 9th as DC/AC/ect continue to rise and those bonuses stay the same. You need a 30 DC, the difference between that gnome and a human are the equivalent of a trait or a masterwork tool.Around 9th is the point at which you realize that your lousiest feat isn't pulling its weight relative to what you could have had in a non-human race choice.
Take the humble gnome in 20pt buy. 14,14,13,13,12,12
str12, dex14, con15, int13, wis12, cha14
That's a lot of positive bonuses.
I think you're making my argument for me.
-- If you can narrow down the "opportunity cost" of playing a gnome to only being a trait behind the human, then why not when great things like gnome magic are waiting to free-scale? (You can build an entire fun concept around Silent Image and Ghost Sound cast at DCs where they actually work). And humans will never get a feat as cool as Bewildering Koan.
Vs a scaling feat like power attack/deadly aim/piranha strike, the bonuses are the clear loser.Not that many feats scale; even the notoriously feat-starved paladin could have all three of those and still have room for both Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy by 9th as a non-human.
Or, for example, a feat that allows your maxed out Cha to fill in for your attack/damage...
If the feat stopped pulling it's weight at 9th, you might have picked the wrong feat.
The only people who don't occasionally "pick the wrong feat" are those with nearly iron-clad system mastery (at least until the next slew of books come out, in which case they have to re-evaluate).
The +2/-1 adjustment races are particularly good for generalist characters in point-buy. That array above, for example, would make a great skald, or even a regular bard/barbarian multiclass. Qualifies for Raging Vitality or Combat Expertise out of the gate without waiting for items. Swap a number pair and you're a summoning reach-cleric. or a cavalier.
+2/-1 is even better if you accept a dump stat, as in:
str12, dex17, con14, int12, wis7, cha16
20pt halfling paladin with a splash of rogue.
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{. . .} You can certainly build an excellent dwarf batte cleric or elven blaster wizard, you are never going to have a wonderful dwarven bard or elven barbarian.
{. . .}
While the Charisma penalty on Dwarves does hurt a lot for making Bard, somebody at Paizo thought it worth having a Stonesinger archetype for them, which is actually pretty cool and doesn't trade out too many things, although you will have to build very carefully to make it work, since unfortunately it doesn't actually do anything about the Charisma penalty. Now, if you want to make it really good, find a way to get Tremorsense onto your allies, although unfortunately the few magic items for this are very expensive, poorly effective (lousy range and/or eat actions to use for just 1 round at a time), or both.
If you can narrow down the "opportunity cost" of playing a gnome to only being a trait behind the human
LOL No you missed the point: the plus for the gnome was a trait for the stats all 14's worth of bonus vs a feat, +1 skill point/level and +2 to a main stat... 'Fun' cantrip use + trait... Not cutting it. I can play a caster if I want 'fun cantrip' use.
Bewildering Koan: ANY HUMAN can pick up the feat as well a gnome can. Racial Heritage is a thing.
Not that many feats scale
Not that many HAVE to: the ones I mentioned are the gold standard for people that use weapons and it doesn't take any system mastery. Any thread, guide or helpful friend is going to point them out. If you can't find a feat that's useful at 9th, you haven't taken a second to check it out.
The only people who don't occasionally "pick the wrong feat" are those with nearly iron-clad system mastery (at least until the next slew of books come out, in which case they have to re-evaluate).
We're talking about the bonus first level feat. If you're picking the wrong one, you haven't checked it out.
The +2/-1 adjustment races are particularly good for generalist characters in point-buy.
Pathfinder actively rewards specialists and hinders generalist. All those +1-2's do is make you less worse than a specialist. In pathfinder a jack of all trades is truly a master of none. About the only way a generalist works is if we're talking an aid another build that's shooting for a DC 10 and even then, a bard does it better focusing in Cha...
So really, the all 14's character ends up being beaten even at being a 'jack of all trades' by a specialist...
UnArcaneElection: Sadly, humans make better stonesingers than dwarves...
I admit to liking variety in the party, and so created a starting port city large enough to allow any race Paizo has put in a book to be a player character...
My wife is a Samsaran, and the rest are humans. So five humans and a Samsaran.
Same with class any published class and I get: fighter, cleric, paladin, monk, sorcerer. And a swashbuckler.
So the only interesting character to me is the Samsaran Swashbuckler.
And they are all human for the same reason, +2 to what ever they want and the bonus feat. So human just cause they are more concerned with character optimization than making a fun character.
I kind of blame the class build guides put out by lots of people. Which takes away some of the creativity in character creation. Sure a Kitsune isn't a numbers perfect race for a war priest, but the concept is interesting and the high dex with the right weapon makes for an effective melee. Yes the -2 to str hurts the damage dealt, however the sacred weapon and the weapon enhancements the war priest can do evens it out a bit.
Still in a fantasy world where you can pretty much be anyone or thing, why would you not want to try and think of something unique and interesting? I understand that everyone's idea of fun is a bit different, but how is playing a character laid out for you every step of the way fun? At that point it is like picking a character in a video game.
It's the free feat I'm guessing. Half-elves and Half-orcs also get the +2 to any stat and a lot more besides.
I'm usually the opposite. I love my core races. There's been a few humans... but a lot of elves, half-elves and Dwarves too. The really weird goofy races?? I really can't stand them. THOSE are the ones I usually see that picked only for optimization bonuese and then get role played just like a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers... most of the time I can't tell the difference between a character with a weird race... or a human sorcerer with a bloodline power.
But each tables different. If they're RPing those humans completely different with a character quirks I would have no problem with the party you have...
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THOSE are the ones I usually see that picked only for optimization bonuese and then get role played just like a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers...
For a LOT of the races, the entirety of the race description is a paragraph. Add to that quite a few are descended from humans so it's hard to suggest someone is playing the race wrong when the books mainly just give you the race is "a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers".
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THOSE are the ones I usually see that picked only for optimization bonuese and then get role played just like a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers...For a LOT of the races, the entirety of the race description is a paragraph. Add to that quite a few are descended from humans so it's hard to suggest someone is playing the race wrong when the books mainly just give you the race is "a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers".
And then of course, there are those people who roleplay dwarves as "short human who likes beer" and elves as "arrogant human with Spock ears."
Let's face it. We're all humans here, so any non-human race we roleplay is gonna have some human in it. We can't help seeing the world through human eyes.
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THOSE are the ones I usually see that picked only for optimization bonuese and then get role played just like a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers...For a LOT of the races, the entirety of the race description is a paragraph. Add to that quite a few are descended from humans so it's hard to suggest someone is playing the race wrong when the books mainly just give you the race is "a human with blue skin or a human with some air powers".And then of course, there are those people who roleplay dwarves as "short human who likes beer" and elves as "arrogant human with Spock ears."
Let's face it. We're all humans here, so any non-human race we roleplay is gonna have some human in it. We can't help seeing the world through human eyes.
Add to that adopted is a thing you see throughout the game in traits [racial and race], raised by angels/dragons/animals/ect. Plus, in metropolitan areas it's likely you'd have more of an area 'culture' than 'race'. When your family has lived in Oppara for generations, do you think of yourself more as your race or as a Taldan? There are times when role-playing as a generic human wouldn't be the best way to roleplay a human bepending on where they are from and their background.
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Is this actually the order that most people pick things in? More often than not, we pick the race before the class, and then build around that.
If I'm not rolling randomly for my new character (in which case I come up with a race/class combination simultaneously), it mostly depends on where I got the idea for the character, which is mostly the last book I read or the campaign info submitted by the GM. So it might be anything that starts my character creation process.
But I don't think that I have ever chosen a race just for the mechanical benefit, and I also wouldn't decide about class based upon the racial boni alone.
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A cantrip that a full-martial can cast with its DC based on character-level thats make an entire company of guards crap their pants and run is more than just 'fun'. It's very useful.If you can narrow down the "opportunity cost" of playing a gnome to only being a trait behind the humanLOL No you missed the point: the plus for the gnome was a trait for the stats all 14's worth of bonus vs a feat, +1 skill point/level and +2 to a main stat... 'Fun' cantrip use + trait... Not cutting it. I can play a caster if I want 'fun cantrip' use.
Bewildering Koan: ANY HUMAN can pick up the feat as well a gnome can. Racial Heritage is a thing.Kiss goodbye the bonus feat.
Not that many HAVE to: the ones I mentio--Not that many feats scaleVs a scaling feat like power attack/deadly aim/piranha strike, the bonuses are the clear loser.Not that many feats scale; even the notoriously feat-starved paladin could have all three of those and still have room for both Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy by 9th as a non-human.
I've restored the context.
You're trying to have your cake (need that extra feat) and eat it too (only a few feats scale).
The only people who don't occasionally "pick the wrong feat" are those with nearly iron-clad system mastery (at least until the next slew of books come out, in which case they have to re-evaluate).[/quote[If you can't find a feat that's useful at 9th, you haven't taken a second to check it out.
You misread me. I didn't say that you run out of good feat options at 9th (that's just silly). I said that most players have a sad choice or two in their build by then, some poor thing that's just not pulling its weight. Even a highly optimized build is likely to have "spare slots" past 12th.
I'm currently working on a 12th-level martial who has thirteen feats but contains only two levels of fighter. It's a half-orc. - If he were human, he'd have a fourteenth feat. Of all the feats, would the absolute worst one, the least used, whichever one it is, still be better than all the racial benefits?
Absolutely not.
Point-buy construction actively hinders min-maxing, which becomes a major consideration in campaigns that require it, such as PFS (i.e., the biggest campaign). A table of specialists who don't overlap and cover all the holes is a marvel, and something you'll almost never see in a mustered-table environment. The Cha20/Int7 4th-level bard is a lot less useful than the Cha18/Int14 character who can actually make a skill-check that isn't cha-based.The +2/-1 adjustment races are particularly good for generalist characters in point-buy.Pathfinder actively rewards specialists and hinders generalist.
All those +1-2's do is make you less worse than a specialist. In pathfinder a jack of all trades is truly a master of none.
That's a caster-mentality. Put a 20 in the prime-stat, and all done. But how many classes are there in the game? A lot. How many of them are wizard? One. What works for a wizard doesn't work in other classes.
The 12th-level martial I referred to above. His highest stat at the moment is strength, but his most important stat is dexterity, without which he couldn't spam AoOs. Five-six years ago, you'd be nuts if your point-buy build had anything higher than a 12 in dex for a cavalier. Today? There are really sick tagteam-action combo feats out there that rack el stupid damage, to the point where having a dex of 18 instead of 20 at 12th means you and bounce-off buddy could lose out on two attacks generating 75+.
Sadly, humans make better stonesingers than dwarves...
It's sad because the writer completely overlooked them (or hates dwarves, but isn't telling). Then again, a human stonesinger underground won't be auto-spotting all the traps just by being near them the way a dwarf of any class could. And when the human trips one, he'll probably blow the save that a dwarf would easily make.
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I can understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree. I have a player that ALWAYS plays an elf or half-elf bard. A couple years ago we got him to read a guide, so now he makes optimized bards, but still nothing but bards. I have another that always want's to be an elf wizard, even though she's awful at it. I got her playing a magus, finally. He keeps wanting to go back to wizard, even though she plays a way better magus. I have one goof ball that always plays really weird combinations, but only to optimize builds, and he is frequently boring or annoying. In my Skull and Shackles campaign, the human fighter was the most interesting of them. It all depends on the player.
My recommendation it to work with each of the players to create a unique and interesting character that they like to play. I usually give them two traits, one is there choice, the other is my choice, based on the character's description and background. But I do optimize, so I'll give them a trait that reinforces what they said, AND improves there character.
Also, analysis paralysis is a thing. In shopping, if given too many options, people will look around, buy nothing, and leave. Or take human if they are playing pathfinder. By fleshing out the campaign world in advance and making some suggestions, I've gotten my players really pumped about the idea of playing undines and skinwalkers.
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I can understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree. I have a player that ALWAYS plays an elf or half-elf bard. A couple years ago we got him to read a guide, so now he makes optimized bards, but still nothing but bards.
I know exactly where you're coming from. (Got a friend into Star Wars RPGs who only plays 'Mary Sue' Twi'leks.)
It can abused in humans, too; for example the player always running sneering enchantresses with Masterful Demeanor who won't let a moment go by without reminding the party of how much better she is.
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And then of course, there are those people who roleplay dwarves as "short human who likes beer" and elves as "arrogant human with Spock ears."
Let's face it. We're all humans here, so any non-human race we roleplay is gonna have some human in it. We can't help seeing the world through human eyes.
To be fair I have had two GMs who have forgotten what race people are playing. I can understand NPCs not reacting to Dwarfs or Elves, but Kitsune or Tengus are another thing entirely.
So it does kind of go both ways, along with asking players what their familiars or pets are doing in combat or social interactions.
I don't know if every tavern owner or patron would be comfortable with a wolf or bear sitting at a table. But all the GMs I have had don't even have someone question at a bear in the tavern.
Granted since there are no Dwarfs or Elves in the party, I don't have to remember secret doors or passages if they pop up in any of the APs I borrow ideas from.
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A cantrip that a full-martial can cast with its DC based on character-level thats make an entire company of guards crap their pants and run is more than just 'fun'. It's very useful.
You must be looking at something I'm not as at best, it's something a trait can pick up. It also doesn't have a scaling DC and isn't based on a stat the martial uses. The guards are more likely slightly annoyed instead of "crap their pants and run".
Kiss goodbye the bonus feat.
A feat to put your bonus stat where you want while gaining access to everything the race can take? Not a wasted feat by any means and refutes you 'no one but gnomes can take this' argument.
I've restored the context.
I have no idea what this means in context with the quote.
You misread me. I didn't say that you run out of good feat options at 9th (that's just silly). I said that most players have a sad choice or two in their build by then, some poor thing that's just not pulling its weight. Even a highly optimized build is likely to have "spare slots" past 12th.
I'm currently working on a 12th-level martial who has thirteen feats but contains only two levels of fighter. It's a half-orc. - If he were human, he'd have a fourteenth feat. Of all the feats, would the absolute worst one, the least used, whichever one it is, still be better than all the racial benefits?
Absolutely not.
Who ever said that? As you level, racials affect your character less. The thing you skipped though is you have to GET to 12th and that extra feat helps LOT of builds get off the ground quicker. Humans often come together levels quicker and THAT is the value of the bonus feat past the individual worth of the feat itself. Being able to make your character 2 levels before another race is the benefit of the bonus feat.
Most people aren't starting characters at 12th and I'm talking about starting fro the beginning and working up.
Point-buy construction actively hinders min-maxing
Point based construction actively hinders SAD classes like monks. What that means is that min/maxers move to single stat classes and aren't slowed down a bit with their 20's in their main stat. Point-buys are a complete failure if it's meant to stop optimization.
A table of specialists who don't overlap and cover all the holes is a marvel, and something you'll almost never see in a mustered-table environment.
And? You're the first person talking about a throw together table. And even then, it's better to have overlapping specialists than a group of generalists that all overlap.
The Cha20/Int7 4th-level bard is a lot less useful than the Cha18/Int14 character who can actually make a skill-check that isn't cha-based.
And both lose to an Oracle that that has a Cha20/Int7 using Cha on ALL int skill checks. Oracle [Spirit Guide], Ancestors Spirit, Wisdom of the Ages: Use her Wisdom modifier instead of her Intelligence modifier on all Intelligence-based skill checks [archetype allows Cha use instead of Wis].
That's a caster-mentality. Put a 20 in the prime-stat, and all done.
No it's the SAD mentality and lots of classes follow it. Myself though I tend for 2 18's, usually dex and main stat. I NEVER proposed 20's as a requirement, just that whatever stat number the person making the character wants, not having a bonus IN that stat means you're spending extra points you could spend elsewhere. You're literally throwing points away.
Then again, a human stonesinger underground won't be auto-spotting all the traps just by being near them the way a dwarf of any class could. And when the human trips one, he'll probably blow the save that a dwarf would easily make.
Assuming they kept those abilities, AND it's built into the stone and not the wood door AND it's not a ref save and... Those abilities are nice but it's a bard we're talking about without trapfinding so are they really in front instead of someone that can disarm them? If you were talking about Sorcerer [seeker] taking the sage bloodline, then you could have a point as the racials actually backup the class abilities and use the same stat.