CR 1 NPC using Soldier Graft. Correct?


Advice


Here's the stats for it. Have I created the NPC correctly?


From a quick glance, I noticed that your laser rifle doesn't have the +1 to damage that as a CR 1 creature it should have. I've not got the rules in front of me but I'm fairly sure that all npcs get their CR to damage rolls.

Nice template by the way! How did you make it?


I am not sure how NPC armor class is supposed to work as most of the monsters conform to standard pc method of calculating AC (except space goblins don't they are lower).

I do know that NPCs are supposed to have lower ACs than PCs of equal level, so if your guy is not a significant NPC, I would change his armor to ceremonial troop to make it more inline with the combatant array table (EAC11 KAC13 for a CR1).

EDIT: Now I am thinking that you should ignore how characters calculate EAC and KAC and use the table so I would have your guy with EAC12 KAC14 (11/13 adjusted with armor savant).

Liberty's Edge

Several things:

1. Your Perception could be +5 and probably should be, though having it at +0 isn't technically illegal.

2. Stats should be listed by stat-mod alone. +3, +2, +1, +0, +0, +0 if you stick with what you've got, though you could raise Str to +4 if you're so inclined (and thus add 1 to the two melee damage numbers).

3. Their AC should be solely and entirely based on that on the chart plus Graft. This'd be an EAC 13 and KAC 15 on a CR 1 Vesk Soldier with Armor Training (the highest AC I can think of on a CR 1), since it's just 11/13 and then two +1/+1 bonuses. What armor they're wearing is, mechanically, entirely irrelevant.

4. One of your Saves should be at +2 over that listing due to the Humanoid Graft. Whichever you like, really. I'd probably go Reflex, personally.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

They already applied a class graft, they shouldn't get the type graft on top of that, correct? Subtype, yes, but not type.

Liberty's Edge

AnimatedPaper wrote:
They already applied a class graft, they shouldn't get the type graft on top of that, correct? Subtype, yes, but not type.

Not exactly (though my initial point was also not exactly right). Re-looking it over you get everything but the 'Adjustments' line from both, and get to pick which 'Adjustments' line to use.

Which means both the stat-line shown above and the one I suggest (+3 bonuses in all Saves) are valid by the rules, since you get +3 Fort, +3 Ref, +1 Will and then your choice of +2 to any one Save (presumably Will) or -2 Ref and +2 Will.

I'd be inclined to err in favor of better Saves, but maybe I just like being rough on my players...


Deadmanwalking wrote:


3. Their AC should be solely and entirely based on that on the chart plus Graft. This'd be an EAC 13 and KAC 15 on a CR 1 Vesk Soldier with Armor Training (the highest AC I can think of on a CR 1), since it's just 11/13 and then two +1/+1 bonuses. What armor they're wearing is, mechanically, entirely irrelevant./QUOTE]

Can you please point out where it spells this out (like a page number)? Because I have actually been looking for it and it keeps eluding me. I finally gave up trying to find it before my game today and then saw that it looked like the Aeon Guard used a dex bonus + armor stats formula and did the same thing for my npcs.


I was looking at the alien archive and most creatures have AC based on how PCs calculate AC. The aeon guard and drow are noticeably wrong in how high their AC is.

However, when you look at modules, the npcs in the modules don't calculate their AC based on how pcs calculate AC.

I believe that if you use the tables in the back and then use gear to get the AC, you will end up with NPCs with ACs far higher than what is expected (the developers note that npcs were created with higher to hit and lower acs than pcs purposefully).

Liberty's Edge

martinaj wrote:
Can you please point out where it spells this out (like a page number)? Because I have actually been looking for it and it keeps eluding me. I finally gave up trying to find it before my game today and then saw that it looked like the Aeon Guard used a dex bonus + armor stats formula and did the same thing for my npcs.

The Aeon Guard and Drow Enforcer do in fact do exactly this, though even if you do that the Aeon Guard is factually inaccurate since it ignores the Armor's Maximum Dex.

But there's a bunch of creatures that don't follow that pattern much (Space Goblins, Maraquoi, etc.), instead having appropriate AC for their CR. And almost all creatures that do follow the Dex + Armor math also fall within a point or so of their expected AC by CR.

Add in that almost no AP featured creatures have AC math that makes sense that way and that nowhere is it even suggested that either armor or Dex should be added to the listed AC and you tend to get the impression that that's not how creatures actually work.

This is especially true considering some of the commentary various people at Paizo have given that supports the idea that the way NPCS operate mechanically is entirely different from how PCs do, and it looks even more compelling.

I'm pretty sure that the Aeon Guard and Drow Enforcer (and possibly a few other monsters) are just errors by people not used to Starfinder monster design yet, at least not on a gut level. It seems more likely to me that some people used a Pathfinder design aesthetic on AC even though they shouldn't, than that they sometimes randomly just did it wrong.

Finally, on a balance note, NPCs are designed with much higher to-hit bonuses than equivalent PCs but lower ACs so as to cause certain systemic effects and allowing PC level AC is thus a really big balance problem.


Thanks for all the corrections thus far. I really appreciate it. A couple of questions

Deadmanwalking wrote:

1. Your Perception could be +5 and probably should be....

3. Their AC should be solely and entirely based on that on the chart plus Graft. This'd be an EAC 13 and KAC 15 on a CR 1 Vesk Soldier with Armor Training (the highest AC I can think of on a CR 1), since it's just 11/13 and then two +1/+1 bonuses. What armor they're wearing is, mechanically, entirely irrelevant.

1. Why?

2. That's what I thought, but then what the heck does this line mean:

Quote:
As mentioned on page 128, you can skew the creature’s gear by a few levels, though you might need to make other adjustments to its statistics if you do so.

That's from page 137 in the Gear writeup. I totally do not know how to reconcile that statement with armor not affecting a creature's AC.

Liberty's Edge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Thanks for all the corrections thus far. I really appreciate it. A couple of questions

No problem. And sure, I'd be happy to clarify.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
1. Why?

All creatures can have Perception as an additional skill if you want, and them having it is assumed. It's on p. 128 under 'Skills'.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
2. That's what I thought, but then what the heck does this line mean:
Quote:
As mentioned on page 128, you can skew the creature’s gear by a few levels, though you might need to make other adjustments to its statistics if you do so.
That's from page 137 in the Gear writeup. I totally do not know how to reconcile that statement with armor not affecting a creature's AC.

Well, armor is hardly the only gear. There's also weapons and several other gear pieces that might effect stats to some degree. Also, it struck me as being perhaps a suggestion that if you gave them higher level armor you might increase AC slightly.

Oh! And I found the specific part of the book that states that AC is independent of armor worn:

Alien Archive p. 127 wrote:
In this system, you don't calculate an NPC's final statistics the same way as a player character would. Instead. you take the numbers directly from the array and then make a few adjustments based on grafts and special abilities chosen later. In other words, if the array says the NPC's Reflex saving throw bonus is +6, that number already represents the benefits of its statistics or any gear it might have.

The 'or any gear' there makes it very clear it counts gear in pre-decided stats. No exception is made for AC.


Thanks for finding the stuff on the AC. And sure, I guess you could say the "NPC" took the feat to get Perception as a bonus skill. I'd rather not though, personally.

I'd be wary of giving an NPC created using the method in the book any bonuses for AC. Here are a levelled NPC vs a standard alien archive NPC for CR 1 and CR 12. The CR 12 NPC vs the levelled NPC show they have comparable stats. The levelled NPC has had personal upgrades to it's ability scores, which it needs to try to keep up with the standard CR 12 NPC.

Given the grafts don't allow for purchasing ability score boosters, I'd assume that it's part of the base stats for the CR. For anyone interested here's the same document as a word doc for anyone who would like a copy of the template I made.

Liberty's Edge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Thanks for finding the stuff on the AC. And sure, I guess you could say the "NPC" took the feat to get Perception as a bonus skill. I'd rather not though, personally.

Uh...not exactly what I was saying. To actually quote:

Alien Archive p. 128 wrote:
NPCs generally have Perception as a good skill, and it isn't included in these numbers.

The assumption is that NPCs have Perception as a Good Skill most of the time, and if they do it doesn't count against their skill allotment.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
I'd be wary of giving an NPC created using the method in the book any bonuses for AC. Here are a levelled NPC vs a standard alien archive NPC for CR 1 and CR 12. The CR 12 NPC vs the levelled NPC show they have comparable stats. The levelled NPC has had personal upgrades to it's ability scores, which it needs to try to keep up with the standard CR 12 NPC.

Oh, definitely. Vesk explicitly get a boost and some Class abilities grant a small one, but yeah, boosting it too much is a real mechanical problem.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Given the grafts don't allow for purchasing ability score boosters, I'd assume that it's part of the base stats for the CR. For anyone interested here's the same document as a word doc for anyone who would like a copy of the template I made.

I would assume the same. Especially since the Abilities of NPCs can be arbitrarily high sometimes and such upgrades are un-lootable anyway.


Right, but then it specifically calls them out as using armor. I was mostly wondering where you saw the +1/+1 for have the soldier graft, cause that would really clear s*@& up.

That being, said, though, I just tossed my party against a CR3 guy last night using the "dex+armor" stats, and the party didn't have TOO much trouble with his 19 ac. I mean it sounds high, but they would find ways to get him prone to lower it, boost their attacks to get more accurate, and other such stuff. I actually snuck an extra 10 hp into his total to make him a little more challenging.

Liberty's Edge

martinaj wrote:
Right, but then it specifically calls them out as using armor. I was mostly wondering where you saw the +1/+1 for have the soldier graft, cause that would really clear s$@! up.

I was saying Armor Training from Guard giving +1/+1 AC was the logical inference of how that worked.

martinaj wrote:
That being, said, though, I just tossed my party against a CR3 guy last night using the "dex+armor" stats, and the party didn't have TOO much trouble with his 19 ac. I mean it sounds high, but they would find ways to get him prone to lower it, boost their attacks to get more accurate, and other such stuff. I actually snuck an extra 10 hp into his total to make him a little more challenging.

That's only +3 AC as compared to the default. That's not actually enough to make the creature terribly overpowered on its own. I mean, it's overpowered , but not necessarily enough that it'll be an actual problem in a particular encounter.

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