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Starfinder helped out MAD classes quite a bit IMO, You can raise four stats every 5 levels and buying stats isn't that costly at least early on.
If you buff STR, DEX, CHA, and CON every five levels the use a ring of resistance on your Will saves You can cover pretty much all bases without the feats and personal upgrades are fairly cheap for +2
Also most solarians don't really need CHA much since so few of their abilities use saves and they don't have many resolve class features
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Currently you need (if you want to cap offense and defense) a Strength of 28 (though 26 is much more reasonable in my opinion) a Dex of 20, and as high a charisma as you can get.
Um, yes if you want to max a stat you, well, max it. It’s definitely not required.
My Melee Solarion with a STR of 14 is competing just fine with the 18 STR Soldier in Dead Suns.
I think that this is kind of intended. The solarian has the highest damage potential in the game, tied with a maxed out sharpshooter soldier. The solarian has a lot more combat choices however. Not all of these choices will be the best at every situation, but there's a lot of flexibility build into the class with the various revelations and skill boosts. The soldier on the other hand gets extra feats, which in the future will lead more flexibility, but currently there just aren't that many great combat feats. So in return for the greater flexibility of the class a solatian has competing demands on it's resources. The soldier has fewer choices, but they don't have to balance things very much. In short the solarian as a class is built in a way where you can make it what you want, but you must make compromises. The soldier is pretty much a damage dealer, pick which way you want to do it melee or ranged, but that's really about it. If you're just going for reliable damage it's going to be easier with a soldier. If you want a lot of options, while still emphisising damage the solarian is a great class.
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If you buff STR, DEX, CHA, and CON every five levels the use a ring of resistance on your Will saves You can cover pretty much all bases without the feats and personal upgrades are fairly cheap for +2
I made this error once, too, and sadly you can only have a Ring to boost your Save with the lowest base save, so on a Solarian it only works on Reflex. It does work fine with Dex boosts to give you an adequate Reflex Save. And you can only ever have one +2 Personal Upgrade.
On the main question: Upon further reflection, I think that actually, most Classes probably at least one of the Save Enhancers. Whether that's a problem is sorta a personal call, but it's not Class Specific.
Let's look at level 10 with relatively optimized characters (ie: 14s in Save-Based Stats that don't do them much other good, 18s in attack and casting stats, plus Upgrades):
Characters of these levels need +8 Saves, +11 vs. spells (so really, +9s and then Spellbane for spells in many cases). Mystics and Technomancers will have a second Ring at +2 (since, having two low base saves, they can do this).
Envoy: +8 Fort, +11 Ref (or more), +9 Will. Even with Spellbane, needs Great Fortitude. And that assumes no investment in Int (which is weird for an Envoy).
Mechanic: +9 Fort, +11 Ref, +8 Will. Need Iron Will even combined with Spellbane.
Mystic: +8 Fort, +9 Ref, +11 Will (or more). Again with the Great Fortitude.
Operative: +8 Fort, +11 Ref (or more), +9 Will (more on a Detective). So Great Fortitude is indeed needed once again.
Soldier: +9 Fort, +9 Ref (or more), +9 Will. Okay, soldier is the Class that doesn't need a save enhancer.
Technomancer: +8 Fort, +9 Ref, +9 Will. Again, Great Fortitude is necessary.
And everyone needs Spellbane. Or to get additional Save enhancers on top of what's listed above.
That's one Save Enhancer Feat (plus Spellbane if PCs are actually supposed to have a 50% chance of succeeding vs. spells...something I'm increasingly unsure of) fairly necessary on most Classes. Solarians needing one extra isn't the end of the world.
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Just math, huh.
Nothing about revelations, or any multitude of other ways Solarians are bad ass.
How is this different from the million other Solarian threads.
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You need it for revelation saves.
Only 8 out of 25 Normal revelations even have a save and only 2 of the 6 zenith revelations use them, my point wasn't that you didn't need them at all just that it wasn't horribly important
And you're forgetting Wisdom. Here is an example:
01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/10/10/12/16
10: 19/17/12/10/12/18
15: 20/17/14/12/14/18
20: 20/18/16/14/16/18If you don't want any Intelligence Boosts and aren't using save DC revelations:
01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/12/10/12/14
10: 19/17/14/10/14/14
15: 20/17/16/10/16/16
20: 20/18/18/10/18/18You can do this, and it will help... But still limits you to only 4 skills (You really want extra skills as a Solarian) and you're still lagging in Save DC's until higher levels.
Building a level 20 human solarian, ignoring theme for simplicity.
01: 16/14/10/10/10/12
05: 18/16/12/10/10/14
10: 19/18/14/10/10/16
15: 20/19/16/10/10/18
20: 21/20/18/10/10/19
So your base +7/+3/+7 becomes +9/+3/+10
With a +3 Ring that's +9/+6/+10 and you don't have to give up your Revelations saves, without any feats, without any personal upgrades.
All you really have to give up is skills which I'd argue a solarian can do more easily than a lot of other classes due to free class skills and sidereal influence
Even then, at say level 10 you need a +9 to make saves 50% of the time.+7/+3/+7 are your saves at that level:
+9/+6/+9 if you forgo any int boosts and forgo any charisma boosts...
If you have a +3 ring you end up with:
+9/+9/+9
That is the bare minimum to making all your saves 50% of the time. If you skipped anything, or your Wis is lower etc, you need to have either Great Fortitude or Iron Will.
Which is fine... For every class but Solarian. Who really needs at least the first array if they are going hard core melee, and if they are a Lashunta, well... Wis is going to lag further.
Again they *can* correct this... But if Paizo would consider adding a feat that allowed us to Swap Will or Fort to our Charisma instead that would make life a lot easier.
I think you are over valuing CHA on a melee build, most of the revelations that use saves seem aimed at more caster build while melee has a ton of buffs that don't require any saves and without many class features that use RES it's not even very useful for that either imo.
EDIT: Got Reflex and Will mixed up
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Unfortunately for you Rysky - The math says no.
The math can say whatever it wants, gameplay says otherwise.
(And I have multiple GMs, not just one, Readied Actions haven’t even come up in the Starfinder GMs I’m in yet)
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You guys are remembering to include personal augmentations, right? A +6, +4, and +2 to three stats can make a fair bit of difference.
My recommended MAD array
01: 14/12/12/10/10/14
03: 16/12/12/10/10/14
05: 18/14/12/12/10/16
07: 20/14/12/12/10/18
10: 22/14/14/14/10/20
14: 24/16/14/14/10/22
15: 24/18/16/16/12/22
20: 24/20/18/18/14/22
Making a level 10 technomancer for a one-shot I got +8/+7/+8, with +2 on saves vs. spells and SLAs via a magic hack. This includes a +4 & +2 personal enhancement & a +2 ring but no save bonus feats. It seems to be quite close to HWalsh's tweaked build if inferior against saves caused by tech. Getting better than that would have been quite hard though.
My recommended MAD array
01: 14/12/12/10/10/14
03: 16/12/12/10/10/14
05: 18/14/12/12/10/16
07: 20/14/12/12/10/18
10: 22/14/14/14/10/20
14: 24/16/14/14/10/22
15: 24/18/16/16/12/22
20: 24/20/18/18/14/22
Saves under this:
10: +9/+5/+9I grab Iron will by now on my solarians So
+9/+5/+11
With the ring you are getting
+9/+8/+11
Of course you should be getting Soul Furnace either at 10 or 12. Which when attuned, you can just end effects.
So you are picking the weakest level to look at saves for the solarian.
But yes, every high level build should include save boosting feats. Especially improved X feats.
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You guys are remembering to include personal augmentations, right? A +6, +4, and +2 to three stats can make a fair bit of difference.
I was, though to be honest it makes little difference in non-Reflex Saves (Reflex Saves seldom need help) since most characters are gonna be using their best and second best Upgrades in either Str or Dex and their Class's Key Ability Score.
That allows a Save Enhancing Upgrade to Will or Fort (the Saves that wind up low for most classes) pretty much only in the case of Soldiers (who don't need a Save Enhancer anyway) and Mystic (who are already doing fine on Will Saves).
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Yeah, I need to run the numbers on every class.
If everyone is seeing within 1-2 of +9 at level 10 then the assumption we've been working on of being expected to succeed on a 10 is incorrect and instead we're expected to save on an 11-12 then the numbers are all in line.
In fairness, my quick run through seems to indicate that relatively optimal characters mostly manage a +9 on two Saves by 10th sans Feats...but not on all three (except in the case of Soldier).
Solarian only manages one instead of the standard two. So...definite downside, but not as much of one as it might be.
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I'm tending to think needing a 11-12 is the new normal. Currently, what is the worst effect from failing a saving throw?
I don't know of any level appropriate save or die spells that will kill a character ignoring their hit points. Currently the most powerful high level spell I can think of is plane shift. That will remove you from the fight, but won't kill you anymore. High level armor means you can survive a plane shift for weeks, and your enemy can't pick the location on the plane (its either close to a place you've been before, or randomly chosen if you've never been there). It also is two rolls, the melee attack roll and the save, dropping the odds closer to 25%.
Disintegrate just does damage, but by level 16 or so, many characters be able to survive a hit with a failed save without a problem (two will be pushing it unless you invested in Con). It does less average damage than a typical CR 16 if they hit will all attacks on a full attack. It also requires an attack roll.
Even Dominate Person allows an additional saving throw at +2 every time an order against their nature is given. Plus its a 1 round casting spell so fairly easily disrupted. Its more of an out of combat spell than in combat.
Snuff life just does damage to appropriate level characters.
There's alot of save or be debuffed, but that at least has some counter play.
Failing saving throws in Starfinder is bad, but so is getting hit in combat. Its also not as game ending as it was in Pathfinder. I feel if you're advocating taking all the save boosting feats for a Solarian, then you should be advocating every Envoy, Drone Mechanic, Mystic and Technomancer should invest a few points in strength and grab heavy armor proficiency as well, probably most easily done at 5th level.
I'm tending to think needing a 11-12 is the new normal. Currently, what is the worst effect from failing a saving throw?
I don't know of any level appropriate save or die spells that will kill a character ignoring their hit points. Currently the most powerful high level spell I can think of is plane shift. That will remove you from the fight, but won't kill you anymore. High level armor means you can survive a plane shift for weeks, and your enemy can't pick the location on the plane (its either close to a place you've been before, or randomly chosen if you've never been there). It also is two rolls, the melee attack roll and the save, dropping the odds closer to 25%.
There are no armor effects that will protect you from eventually dying on the plane of fire (3d10 damage per round) or the negative energy plane. The positive energy plane will eventually kill you if you sleep and stop stabbing yourself regularly. They're an eventual death sentence for almost all characters who can't leave. The only change Starfinder brings is you won't drown right away on the water plane if you're in armor.
But note that Plane Shift is touch range and does provoke.
Stone to Flesh is the closest thing to save (or don't get get hit) or die. Given AC protection against the nastiest spells I feel like poison is one of the biggest save concerns now, but maybe the auto damage you can't avoid the bigger problem.
I think the biggest takeaway from this discussion is that everyone needs to be concerned with failing saves as it is expected that this WILL happen. The solarian suffers the most from this situation because of it's MAD status, but not that much more than many classes. It does make abilities to recover from failed saves such as soul furnace or the soldier fighting style abilities that do something similar more desirable. Either way boosting saves is a good idea, if you can do it with attributes great, otherwise plan on spending some of your feats.
There are no armor effects that will protect you from eventually dying on the plane of fire (3d10 damage per round) or the negative energy plane. The positive energy plane will eventually kill you if you sleep and stop stabbing yourself regularly. They're an eventual death sentence for almost all characters who can't leave. The only change Starfinder brings is you won't drown right away on the water plane if you're in armor.
But note that Plane Shift is touch range and does provoke.
Stone to Flesh is the closest thing to save (or don't get get hit) or die. Given AC protection against the nastiest spells I feel like poison is one of the biggest save concerns now, but maybe the auto damage you can't avoid the bigger problem.
I was thinking the suits protected against all temperature ranges, but further in the environmental section, if it does damage without a save, its not protected, so I agree, plane of fire will do damage.
Edit: Never mind, found it in the environmental section further down.
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I wouldn't call it the Solarian problem but more Specifically the Charisma problem. Charisma's complete lack of mechanics it supports other than improving the social skills. I LIKE Social Skills but literally every other stat also has a mechanic of some decent importance tied to it beyond it's skills.
Strength How much Stuff you can carry, melee damage, melee attack rolls.
Dexterity AC, Ranged Attack Rolls, Ref Saves
Constitution Damage you can take, fort saves.
Intelligence Skill Points
Wisdom Will Saves
Charisma You get... NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY, SIR!!!
For a Solarion Charisma supports their Revelations and Resolve Points.
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For a Solarion Charisma supports their Revelations and Resolve Points.
I think his point was what "class neutral" benefits you get from investing in different ability scores. Mystics get crazy will saves and excellent Perception skills "for free" by investing in their primary stat, Operatives get higher AC, melee/ranged attack bonuses and reflex saves "for free" by investing in their primary stat.
Solarians get... Well, face skills. It doesn't help that their typical secondary high score (Strength) is kind of underwhelming as well. Apart from extra bulk capacity (which tends to get eaten up by big weapons and heavy armor) and damage, strength doesn't really add all that much.
For a Solarion Charisma supports their Revelations and Resolve Points.
Yes but Resolve can be tied to any single stat. That's not really a base mechanic tied to the stat innately. Kudaku more or less has my point there, that Charisma as a primary stat offers very little that other primary stats do not.
Why would someone want to invest in Wisdom? To get better will saves AND the most widely useful skill in the game (Perception). Why would someone want to invest in Con? To be tougher and to have more fort save. Charisma? Well, we don't have a derived 'I'm too pretty to die' mechanic...
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i ran through the 1st 4 adventure league missions this last weekend and from an actual play perspective my solarian was by far the most constant solid damage dealer and at level 2 was flat out out preforming the others in combat.
the solder was hitting a bit harder on the normal attacks but was easier to hit due to his less expensive armor,
i had a great time :)
though level 2 did solidly improve him
Yeah, and Technomancers who don't pick Magic Missile are dummies.
Every class has things which are awesome, things which are meh, and things which are highly useless except in very specific cases which will only come up in certain campaigns. (Which means your character will probably know they need those weird things by the time they have access.)
I don't see that as being some huge detraction from a given class.
It's not that they CAN fail saves is that they in general WILL fail saves most of the time. Neither Charisma nor Strength contribute to saves at all, something that the Pathfinder Paladin bolstered with Divine Grace but the Solarian's save boosting is nearly non-existent. In addition, Starfinder saving throws get very, very nasty if you are working with a tertiary (At best) stat boosting them.
If I switch between con and wisdom as my last choice (so for sure str dex and chr(and on some build you don't necessarily need a lot of charisma) then switch back and forth for wis and char) overall aren't I really only low my saves by 2 each at most? so 10%?
If I switch between con and wisdom as my last choice (so for sure str dex and chr(and on some build you don't necessarily need a lot of charisma) then switch back and forth for wis and char) overall aren't I really only low my saves by 2 each at most? so 10%?
However, that's 10% lower saves on a class that's holding the front line or chasing down enemy casters (since the only way to interrupt spells is with an AoO now).
So a class that's typically going to be a prime target for enemy spells simply by nature of being melee gets worse saves - even if only by 10% - than all other classes. That seems like a clear design flaw to me.
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Haven't we already seen that the Solarion has the highest DPR in the game? If its slightly weaker defensively I wouldn't call that a problem exactly.
Wait, so you mean unless one has some irrational unhealthy obsession with minmaxing paper DPR, one can still have completely good DPR without mixmaxing DPR stats, letting one invest in well rounded stats to support saves & revelations/resolve? Out of this world! (ha...ha...ha... OK fine)
Eh your argument doesn't have enough weight to speculative and situational. I could also say hes going to be in melee so casters are going to have a harder time hitting him with spells so he doens't need that 10%.
Also his saves are only worse if you make them that way.
don't bump your str and charisma once each so its only 5% (they will still do great damage even if you dock their strength by 2 maybe even 3 times and you should be able to loss a point or 2 of charisma bonus as well without major consequences.)
I'll tell you what would make me believe you do a write up of their stats compared to others keeping their saves where you feel they need to be and then see if they are crippled in combat because of it.
Eh your argument doesn't have enough weight to speculative and situational. I could also say hes going to be in melee so casters are going to have a harder time hitting him with spells so he doens't need that 10%.
Also his saves are only worse if you make them that way.
don't bump your str and charisma once each so its only 5% (they will still do great damage even if you dock their strength by 2 maybe even 3 times and you should be able to loss a point or 2 of charisma bonus as well without major consequences.)I'll tell you what would make me believe you do a write up of their stats compared to others keeping their saves where you feel they need to be and then see if they are crippled in combat because of it.
It's a pretty easy comparison. You take a standard melee soldier build and make a melee solarian with the same saves and compare. Both classes perform the same role in combat, and thus will get hit with the same amount of spells in their career. Since the DPR difference between a optimized level 20 melee solarian and soldier is a whopping 3 points, I don't think it's worth mentioning.
Human soldier:
Attributes // Saves // To Hit // Resolve
1: 16/13/12/10/12/10 // (3/1/3) // +4 // 4
5: 18/15/14/10/14/10 // (6/3/6) // +9 // 5
10: 19/17/16/10/16/10 // (10/6/10) // +14 // 9
15: 20/18/18/10/18/10 // (13/9/13) // +19 // 11
20: 20/19/19/12/18/12 // (16/10/16) // +25 // 15
Human solarian:
Attributes // Saves // To Hit // Resolve
1: 14/13/12/10/12/12 // (3/1/3) // +3 // 2
5: 16/15/14/10/14/12 // (6/3/6) // +8 // 4
10: 18/17/16/10/16/12 // (10/6/10) // +14 // 6
15: 19/18/18/10/18/12 // (13/9/13) // +19 // 8
20: 20/19/18/12/18/14 // (16/10/16) // +25 // 12
So to maintain the same saves a melee soldier achieves without any sacrifices, a melee solarian must sacrifice their primary stat. They lose resolve points, save DCs, and the ability to play a face character.
Is this 'crippling' in combat? No probably not. Would it feel bad to build such a sup par solarian to maintain a 'balanced' save array compared to other classes? Absolutely.
Edit: Had to readjust for a math error.
Ok. What does the soldier have to give up to be able to use the revelations that the solarian can use?
How about the fact that the soldier has 2 less class skills than the solarian and does not gain sidereal influence.
The solarian is better at a bunch of stuff when compared to the soldier. Yes the soldier can be better at combat and keeping his defenses up.
You very much sound like all the classes should be capable if exactly the same things at exactly the same level.
Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. Deal with it
Hmm so maybe we should get a revelation in a later book to use charisma for will saves, or possibly a revelation that just gives a boost to all saves. make it give a little more then oompf since its costing you a revelation. maybe like a build up +1 to +2 to +3 or some such as you are in combat.
Ok. What does the soldier have to give up to be able to use the revelations that the solarian can use?
How about the fact that the soldier has 2 less class skills than the solarian and does not gain sidereal influence.The solarian is better at a bunch of stuff when compared to the soldier. Yes the soldier can be better at combat and keeping his defenses up.
You very much sound like all the classes should be capable if exactly the same things at exactly the same level.
Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. Deal with it
Hmm also a solid point that some differences between classes should be their. soldier focused on melee should be really the best at it since that is literally their main thing.
I assume you guys factored in iron will and great fort as well?
Hmm alright fair enough im down for a save boost revelation.
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Ok. What does the soldier have to give up to be able to use the revelations that the solarian can use?
How about the fact that the soldier has 2 less class skills than the solarian and does not gain sidereal influence.The solarian is better at a bunch of stuff when compared to the soldier. Yes the soldier can be better at combat and keeping his defenses up.
You very much sound like all the classes should be capable if exactly the same things at exactly the same level.
Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. Deal with it
Exactly what things is a solarian meaningfully better than a soldier at?
Is it DPR? No, they stay extremely competitive from 1-20.
Is it survivability? No they'll have nearly identical AC and the soldier will have better saves.
Is it mobility? No the soldier and the solarian get exactly the same improved charge mechanic, and while the solarian gets it sooner, the soldier has +10 movespeed.
Is it skills? Barely. They both get the exact same number of skills per level, and with their excess of feats, a soldier can get Skill synergy at any point to get exactly the skills they want. Sidereal Influence gives a solarian a d6 on two skills, four skills after level 11. No solarian or soldier will ever come close to being as useful with skills the other classes, regardless.
Is it class abilities? No. The solarian gets a revelation every other level, but since melee solarians never go into graviton mode, it's really one every four levels. Many of these revelations are simply replicating class abilities soldiers get themselves through abilities or bonus feats(improved charge, extra melee damage, full attacks as a standard action, DR, ect).
So where do solarians outshine soldiers to much that they deserve to have bad saves as a weakness? What solarian ability no soldier can replicate balances no solarian maintaining balanced saves without sacrificing their primary stat?
From a purely mechanical perspective, putting all flavor and roleplaying preferences aside, I don't see why solarians must choose between their primary stat or standard fort and will saves. I don't see their numerical strength that requires this weakness to balance it.