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"Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn."
During the session tonight, our rogue succeeded on a Feint check against his opponent thinking that he could get sneak damage during his next turn (denied his dex). However, the ruling at the table was that he could NOT do it DURING the next round, as the wording did not say "before the end of your next turn".
The wording says "on or before your next turn". Is there somewhere that clarifies that "ON your next turn" EQUALS or DOES NOT equal "before the end of your next turn"?
Thanks
Note "This attack must be made on or before your next turn". This implies before the end of your next turn. So successfully feinting should open up the possibility for a Sneak Attack on the next turn. It isn't very efficient(*), but Rules As Written, it should work.
(*)As a practical matter, you really need to get a way to feint using less than a Standard Action, but this isn't strictly necessary to get feint to work at all.
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Is there somewhere that spells out the "implied" meaning?
To me and everyone else but the gamemaster and the asst director (Venture Lieutenant for Pathfinder Society Organized Play), it was obvious that "ON" your next turn meant any time at all DURING your next turn up to and including the "end of your next turn". They were not able to justify it, but simply ruled against us as they said:
"that's how it's always been ruled. 'On your next turn' does not equal 'until the end of your next turn'."
PERIOD, end of discussion. I just want to know WHERE it was ruled thusly that they seemed to be quoting.
Thanks
Is there somewhere that spells out the "implied" meaning?
{. . .}
I don't know how you would spell it out any more than it is spelled out in the text without taking up a lot more space to give examples (which is not necessarily a bad idea, but from what I understand page space/count limitations are a severe constraint at Paizo, since a lot of their stuff is printed, and even though they make most stuff available online, they don't want to do a special version for it, with the closest thing being the FAQs that show up from time to time).
The Paizo forums Search function doesn't seem to cover FAQs, so I Googled for Pathfinder Feint FAQ and found a FAQ saying that if you have Greater Feint your target is flatfooted to everybody (not just you) until the start of your next turn (in addition to the normal effects of a feint), but nothing spelling out what you want. I wonder if your GM read Greater Feint and got the durations of the effects mixed up (it gives a broader effect, but it doesn't last as long as the normal effect of feint).
Let's flip it around for a moment. What other way is there to read "on or before your next turn"? If there is no other reasonable way to read it, well, there you go.
Yeah, that is a ruling that needs justifying as I cannot see any other way to read "on...your next turn" other than as the way you wanted to use it.
I would be asking your VL to substantiate their ruling.
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Indeed.
It shouldn't be you that needs to find an FAQ or a clarification.
The burden of proof falls on them.
As Venture Agents, they can make a ruling on an ambiguous ability for that game, because game slots are short and it's best to keep the game moving, but generally speaking a more thorough search is done sometime after the game is over, when there's more time, so the issue doesn't come up again.
Only in the case of genuinely ambiguous issues is a more long lasting ruling required.
Show them this thread. They should want to read it.
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This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
That is equivalent to "this attack must be made on your next turn or before your next turn." An attack made "on your next turn" is certainly before the end of your next turn.
Just like maneuvers, feinting without feats is awkward. You don't provoke, but it takes long to set up. Round one, feint as standard action, round two make attack. Or round one, feint as standard action, then as attack of opportunity profit from the feint.
In general in Pathfinder, there is more than one way to say something. You can say "an attack made before the end of your next turn", or "an attack made before or on your next turn", or "an attack made on or before your next turn", and those are all correct English ways to say the same thing.
Pathfinder doesn't have a language bible specifying that only one of those things is the correct way to phrase something and therefore the other phrasing doesn't do anything. Text is written in different styles all over even a single book.
Furthermore, for the most part, "stuff works". Cases where an option genuinely doesn't work are rare and considered actual errors. (Like the old Prone Shooter feat.) If reading a piece of rules you get the impression "this doesn't work at all", you're probably not reading it correctly (or at least, not as the author intended it to be read).
If there are two ways to read something which are both grammatically correct, but one leads to an absurd conclusion ("there is a feint option even without a feat, but without a feat it's useless") and the other one leads to a more plausible outcome ("feinting without the feat is awkward but possible, just like maneuvers without feats") then the second choice should be used.