So the final fight


Dead Suns


Should PCs be level 2 or 3? I keep hearing how everyone has had trouble with that fight and it sounds brutal-but that may be half the point and what makes the fight cool and exciting. My question is, is it better to give the cushion of being level 3? Or does that make it too easy?

The Exchange

I haven't run It yet.

I have four players, built well and following the wealth from gear drops in the AP.
I will absolutely be making sure they are level 3 before they fight Mr Fighty McGnashyteeth at the end.

At level 2, our toughest character will have 14 stamina and 22 HP. That's not going to last long, especially if they have a fight or two before running into this thing (which is how it looks like playing out in all honesty).

At level three that goes to 21 Stamina and 33 HP. Which is much more likely to survive a few more rounds. That will make it a tough fight as opposed to a TPK.

At level three the parties damage output will not be much higher than level 2 either, so the fight is likely to run just as long.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I haven't run it yet, but I try not to throw anything at my players with a CR greater than APL+2, so I will certainly make sure the party hits level 3 before dealing with the Garaggakal. It should still be fairly challenging.

On a related note, I need to figure out when to take the party from level 1 to 2 (we level by milestone, not by XP), since I want them to be at level 2 before hitting the Acreon's bridge, but I'm not sure what order they'll explore the ship in. I'm thinking right after the starship battle, but I'm not settled on that yet.

Silver Crusade

Jimbles the Mediocre wrote:
I haven't run it yet, but I try not to throw anything at my players with a CR greater than APL+2,

Note, following is a general comment and not specific to this end boss (haven't read the Adventure Path).

CR is, at best, a VERY vague and imprecise indication of power level. I've run the four SFS scenarios and they all have a CR 3 encounter. One of these is, IMO, markedly harder than the others. I'd have personally put it as at least CR 4, maybe CR5.

Don't just look at the CR of a monster. Look at what it can actually do and whether your party has appropriate ways to deal with its powers.

The Exchange

Garragakil has only got four resolve points. If it uses life leach it burns one resolve per use.

If it phases it takes one resolve per use.

Hit and run tactics on this thing make it considerably weaker.


I've settled on my decision that the PCs are going to be Level 3 right before tackling the big bad boss. At best, I hedge my bets to give them every possible chance to avoid a TPK. Since they will be level 2 upon boarding the Acreon, it will be enough evenly-space between levels to not frustrate the feel of progress for them.

At worst, I can always gift the monster 1 or 2 extra resolve points to make him a more challenging foe if the PCs are having an absolutely cakewalk with it. That way, I don't have to artificially boost AC or hit points and throw him too far out of whack with the published stats. In this way, monster resolve points are an excellent extra dial to control challenge level on a monster without throwing it out of whack.

Silver Crusade

I ran it with my PCs at 2, and they haven't had the easiest time with many of the other fights already (no deaths yet, but plenty of times 2 of the 4 have been unconscious). This fight ran a bit more smoothly. The tactics do not have it staying in melee combat 100% of the time, and it will also leave with a decent number of hit points left. It is a tough fight, but they made it through. Probably would have breezed through it pretty easily at level 3 given that a lot of classes get a decent bump in power at that level.


Parimer wrote:

I ran it with my PCs at 2, and they haven't had the easiest time with many of the other fights already (no deaths yet, but plenty of times 2 of the 4 have been unconscious). This fight ran a bit more smoothly. The tactics do not have it staying in melee combat 100% of the time, and it will also leave with a decent number of hit points left. It is a tough fight, but they made it through. Probably would have breezed through it pretty easily at level 3 given that a lot of classes get a decent bump in power at that level.

Level 3 Soldier with a Pulsecaster Rifle (level 1 weapon) can hit this thing for 1.5x(1d6+3) or an average of 18-19 per full attack.

Combine that with a team of level 3's and this thing can be burned down so fast.

Example:
18 avg from Soldier Pulsecaster Rifle
21 avg from Shocking Burst (technomancer)

Alone this drops the thing by 39 HP in one round. Easily allowing a group of level 3's to kill it in 2 rounds.

The Exchange

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HWalsh wrote:
Parimer wrote:

I ran it with my PCs at 2, and they haven't had the easiest time with many of the other fights already (no deaths yet, but plenty of times 2 of the 4 have been unconscious). This fight ran a bit more smoothly. The tactics do not have it staying in melee combat 100% of the time, and it will also leave with a decent number of hit points left. It is a tough fight, but they made it through. Probably would have breezed through it pretty easily at level 3 given that a lot of classes get a decent bump in power at that level.

Level 3 Soldier with a Pulsecaster Rifle (level 1 weapon) can hit this thing for 1.5x(1d6+3) or an average of 18-19 per full attack.

Combine that with a team of level 3's and this thing can be burned down so fast.

Example:
18 avg from Soldier Pulsecaster Rifle
21 avg from Shocking Burst (technomancer)

Alone this drops the thing by 39 HP in one round. Easily allowing a group of level 3's to kill it in 2 rounds.

If they hit it. a full attack soldier is rolling at +5 to hit at best when making a full attack (assuming highest stat boost and some feat to max hit potential).

That means he only hits 30% of the time.

Which means three rounds of full attacks will hit twice. So it takes three full rounds to do the 18-19 damage you're mentioning above. Unless you're very lucky on the dice.

This thing can drop a player in that time.

You're scenario also assumes electricity damage being thrown at it. This is not very likely given what's dropped in the game and what weapons are cheap to purchase in the early levels of game play.

You're also assuming a technomancer.

So, while it is possible to kill this thing in two rounds, it's highly unlikely.
I suspect the majority of combats against it to last 4 to 6 rounds, just like the rest of the game. And it will be a very arduous 4 to 6 rounds too.


Wrath wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Parimer wrote:

I ran it with my PCs at 2, and they haven't had the easiest time with many of the other fights already (no deaths yet, but plenty of times 2 of the 4 have been unconscious). This fight ran a bit more smoothly. The tactics do not have it staying in melee combat 100% of the time, and it will also leave with a decent number of hit points left. It is a tough fight, but they made it through. Probably would have breezed through it pretty easily at level 3 given that a lot of classes get a decent bump in power at that level.

Level 3 Soldier with a Pulsecaster Rifle (level 1 weapon) can hit this thing for 1.5x(1d6+3) or an average of 18-19 per full attack.

Combine that with a team of level 3's and this thing can be burned down so fast.

Example:
18 avg from Soldier Pulsecaster Rifle
21 avg from Shocking Burst (technomancer)

Alone this drops the thing by 39 HP in one round. Easily allowing a group of level 3's to kill it in 2 rounds.

If they hit it. a full attack soldier is rolling at +5 to hit at best when making a full attack (assuming highest stat boost and some feat to max hit potential).

That means he only hits 30% of the time.

Which means three rounds of full attacks will hit twice. So it takes three full rounds to do the 18-19 damage you're mentioning above. Unless you're very lucky on the dice.

This thing can drop a player in that time.

You're scenario also assumes electricity damage being thrown at it. This is not very likely given what's dropped in the game and what weapons are cheap to purchase in the early levels of game play.

You're also assuming a technomancer.

So, while it is possible to kill this thing in two rounds, it's highly unlikely.
I suspect the majority of combats against it to last 4 to 6 rounds, just like the rest of the game. And it will be a very arduous 4 to 6 rounds too.

Not really.

If this thing had free reign to do whatever it wanted and the GM changed its behavior maybe?

Spoiler:
The garaggakal initially attacks its foes in melee combat with its lamprey-like bite to get a “taste” of its prey, but if reduced to fewer than 60 Hit Points, it keeps its distance and uses its life leech ability to bolster itself. If anyone deals electricity damage to the garaggakal, it turns on them to take out the greatest threat. If its victims try to run away, the garaggakal pursues them throughout the Drift Rock, using its phase through ability as needed to catch them or cut them off.

It has 75 HP.
EAC/KAC 17/19

A Solider with a +6 (level 3 with a +3 in Dex) can shoot and hit this thing on an 11. With a -4 (from full attack) they can hit this thing on a 15. If they have an 18 they can hit it on a 14, and a 13 if they have Weapon Focus. Realistically we can assume they have at least Weapon Focus and a 16 base stat. So we can assume they have a +7 base to hit it. Meaning they need a 14 on a full attack or a 10 on a single attack. That means a 35% chance per full attack and a 55% chance per single attack (providing they aren't seeing any bonuses from envoys, etc.)

A melee'er at this level is going to hit it for around 1d6+6 minimum. So 9-10 damage per shot.

So just assuming a single attack from 1 melee combatant and 1 non-electricity using longrifle user (again at level 3) you are going to reach its 60 HP threshold in 1 round using just average damage.

9-10 from the melee'er, 6-7 from even a laser rifle.

That is a 2 person team mind you.

Spoiler:
Once it has dropped to 60, it isn't going to be in melee full attacking anymore. Which is never really does anyway. It will back away (eating an attack of opportunity from the melee for another 9 damage.) and attempt a life leach (18 damage average, 9 if they make the DC 13 save. At level 3 typically PCs have a total durability of 25 HP and 21 Stamina, even if they don't have a con bonus) but if this thing has been struck so far by each of the 3 attacks that would have been incoming it would have been at 51 - So if it regains the average of 9 here, it will still be only at 60.

Once it is in this precarious situation it is in a bad spot, assuming at least 2 other team members are there dealing only 6 damage average per hit (this assumes no trick attacks and no full attacks and lower than average damage rolls) that means this thing, at the end of round 1, is at 48 hp.

Round 2 - Later, rinse, repeat:
Melee hits it for 9, everyone else hits it for 6, that drops it to 24 HP. It backs away again, eats another AoO, which is cancelled out by the life leach.

Round 3 - Dead, with no PCs even getting dropped.

-----

This fight is only really bad if:

1. The team has no combat healing. (no Shamen, no Envoy.)
2. Has no cohesion. (again no Envoy helping out.)
3. Has bad rolls. (The great equalizer.)
4. Has no melee. (Yes, having no melee in this fight hurts.)
5. The GM ignores the creature's stated behavior.
6. Have no combat casters. (A technomancer can nuke this thing from orbit.)


We dropped it with a 2nd level party and nobody unconscious, killing it before it could flee. Envoy, 2 melee, 1 electric-ranged Operative.

Its tactics are that bad, so bad that our GM apologized when moving the pawn. But he ran it as written because he felt it was hardwired into the writing for balance. I agree because we had to hit it a whole lot and 2 hits could drop us (3 with Envoy boost). There were so many opportunity attacks that we nibbled it like piranhas. With the damage boost for being 3rd, I can't imagine the creature threatening the party in any "End Boss of first AP, Book 1" kind of way unless the GM altered the tactics and I'm not sure even then.

If you feel you need to fudge, please don't do it by leveling up the PCs to 3rd. Assuming that they rest because they're leveling, that would make the fight too easy (unless they're new to RPGs or otherwise under average).

I suspect the damage from the trap (added to the strength damage from before) is supposed to encourage the party to rest, which a GM could nudge the party toward doing. We didn't set off the trap, used items to heal the strength damage, and had no spellcasters to recharge so were near full strength other than Resolve.

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