If you are under the effects of Greater Invisibility, would a "Spectral Hand" spell you cast be invisible to others or would it still be visible since it is not physically connected to you? Is the Spectral hand giving away your location?
What if, instead of spectral hand, you had a Hide in Plain Sight ability? If after the hand returned to you - having made a touch attack, you move and re-stealth - do you have a glowing hand giving away your position? or is it as hidden as you are?
Thanks.
The spectral hand is separate from the caster and visible in both scenarios.
The spectral hand itself does not give away your position, though the initial casting will. Note, after delivering a touch spell the spectral hand returns to the caster's location. This will not make an invisible or hidden caster visible, but will reveal which square they are located in.
I'm a bit flummoxed. How can you say "the spectral hand itself does not give away your position" while also saying that it will, in fact "reveal which square they are located in" ???
How is that NOT giving up your position?
Anyway - I appreciate the annalyis. I was worried that an npc was about to be too OP for the group. She flies, has a huge stealth and a HiPS (Su) ability, can cast quickened spells, and use touch spells via spectral hand... so it just seemed like the party wasn't ever going to be able to find her, while she just took her time and took them out one by one.
I would have phrased that as the hand does not PINPOINT your position, but does indicate (by hovering) what square(s) the caster is in.
I'm a bit flummoxed. How can you say "the spectral hand itself does not give away your position" while also saying that it will, in fact "reveal which square they are located in" ???
How is that NOT giving up your position?
Anyway - I appreciate the annalyis. I was worried that an npc was about to be too OP for the group. She flies, has a huge stealth and a HiPS (Su) ability, can cast quickened spells, and use touch spells via spectral hand... so it just seemed like the party wasn't ever going to be able to find her, while she just took her time and took them out one by one.
The hand is only adjacent to the caster immediately after delivering a touch spell or moving out of range.
I would assume an intelligent caster would move before completing his turn, leaving the hand floating in an unoccupied square, with no indication of the caster's current location.
In either case, the caster retains full concealment. If stealthing, this may trigger a perception roll with a circumstance modifier, as onlookers know your general location.
Ah! okay - Thank you for clarifying. I had been assuming that the hand followed you around at all times - and only left your side when you sent it to deliver a touch attack.
Would the caster even break stealth? I ask since the caster isn't the one attacking - he is sending the spectral hand to attack in his stead.
If the caster is magically flying while unarmored and virtually invisible (Hidden in plain sight), the caster could cast a touch spell, have the spectral hand deliver it, and then move to a new location (moving at half speed, so as to not require a new roll) after the hand returned to the caster's original position.
I am not concerned about ever leaving a place within 10' of shadows, as the cavern is described as being 60' tall while being filled with stalactites - so as long as the caster is flying along the bottom of the stalactites - he will always be near shadows.
Now... how do my players defeat such a foe? i suppose readied actions to make ranged attacks (or readied "partial charges") towards the square the spectral hand returns to as soon as the hand returns. I suppose that for the party to take that tactic, they would need to make a spellcraft check to show they knew how the spell functioned. That could work... Faeryfire/Glitterdust to negate the stealth would be smart at that point...
Am i missing anything?
Casting still generates a detectable manifestation.
If they have magic weapons or can affect incorporeal some other way, attacking the spectral hand itself would (slowly) work.
If the caster is casting a touch attack spell to be delivered through the hand, he is still Casting an attack spell, with all that goes with casting. There are feats that can make his casting more subtle, and tactics that create helpful distractions, which can Help with the whole Manifestation issues, along with verbal and somatic components. Without these countermeasures, spellcasting is generally not subtle.
Many tables allow the undetectable caster, many don't. That is a matter of preference, since there is a lot of contradictory support data leading to so much disagreement on this. Play it the way you like at your private tables, or, if PFS, find out what your local ruling is.
|
Now... how do my players defeat such a foe? i suppose readied actions to make ranged attacks (or readied "partial charges") towards the square the spectral hand returns to as soon as the hand returns. I suppose that for the party to take that tactic, they would need to make a spellcraft check to show they knew how the spell functioned. That could work... Faeryfire/Glitterdust to negate the stealth would be smart at that point...
Am i missing anything?
Traps are often a good solution for invisible foes that move around. The Rune Domain 1st level ability, Bear Traps, Caltrops, or Grease.
Another valid tactic when dealing with a foe you can't see, is to attempt equal the playing field by becoming invisible yourself. This can be done in two ways. First is just to cast invisibility on yourself. The other option is to make the opponent unable to see you like via Blindness, Darkess, or Obscuring Mist. Pathfinder has an annoying limitation on most attacks where being able to see the target is required to target them. Doesn't really solve the problem of not being able to see your opponent, but may make them stop attacking (and them attacking is probably the larger issue).
If they have magic weapons or can affect incorporeal some other way, attacking the spectral hand itself would (slowly) work.
Good Point - i know both the paladin and the fighter in the group have ghost touch weapons - so yeah - they will just have to ready an action once to foil the caster's plan.
Thanks guys!
|
|
If they have magic weapons or can affect incorporeal some other way, attacking the spectral hand itself would (slowly) work.
Spectral Hand only has 1-4 HP. Magic Missile would decimate it very quickly (if the GM rules it is a valid target). Really, any damaging ability that doesn't require an attack roll or grant saves will harm this quickly.
The main concern with attacking spectral hand is that it has very high AC (10+8size+4natural+INT mod of the caster) in addition to being incorporeal. So with an 18 INT wizard, Spectral hand has 26 AC and 22 Touch AC. I know, not high for a fighter, but high for a creature with only d4 HP. It also has Improved Evasion.
The secondary concern with attacking a spectral hand is that it isn't a creature, while it also isn't an item. A whole bunch of screwy rules lawyering potential with this one. On the one hand, this means the caster can't buff it very easily, on the other hand, means a whole ton of common offensive spells can't target it (like magic missile) and it's even iffy if PCs can attack it with weapons. I know, obviously it can be attacked, but RAW doesn't really support that, despite the description strongly implying that it can be attacked.
Simple non-magic method:
Ready a ranged attack vs. caster when the hand returns.
Still a 50% miss chance, but likely to cause the caster problems.
Alternate non-magic method: throw power on the floor where the hand returns.
Best spell method: ready a glitterdust for where the hand returns.
Alternate spell method: dispel the hand.
/cevah
Make that "throw powder on the floor".
/cevah
Uhm, if the PC's can do things like cast invisibility and dispel magic, you would think they should have access to See Invisibility. My players, when they were low level, went out of their way to have a potion or scroll on hand for situations like this.
Unless you were running a non-standard game, 2bz2p, I hope they didn't have potions of See Invisibility...
"Range: personal"