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The party in my campaign believes Razmir is not actually a real person, but rather he's five retired adventurers who used their combined magical power and influence to con a nation into believing a false figurehead.
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This will be rather OT, and I apologize, but has there ever been any sort of an official answer on just how many of Golarion's people know that Razmir isn't a god, he's only a mortal man? It seems like every time Razmir and Razmiran gets mentioned in either background information or fiction he's described by the speaker as a 'con artist'.
Far fewer than the number of people who do not know, but believe he is a charlatan.
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The party in my campaign believes Razmir is not actually a real person, but rather he's five retired adventurers who used their combined magical power and influence to con a nation into believing a false figurehead.
Hey, Norgorber may have gotten started that way . . . .
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This will be rather OT, and I apologize, but has there ever been any sort of an official answer on just how many of Golarion's people know that Razmir isn't a god, he's only a mortal man? It seems like every time Razmir and Razmiran gets mentioned in either background information or fiction he's described by the speaker as a 'con artist'.
Know, or merely believe?
Like Scientology or other relatively fringe beliefs in real life, most people who don't actually live in Razmiran or follow his teachings believe he's full of crap. Proof is harder to come by.
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The party in my campaign believes Razmir is not actually a real person, but rather he's five retired adventurers who used their combined magical power and influence to con a nation into believing a false figurehead.
I choose to believe he's actually just three kids stacked on top of each other under a trench coat.
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This will be rather OT, and I apologize, but has there ever been any sort of an official answer on just how many of Golarion's people know that Razmir isn't a god, he's only a mortal man? It seems like every time Razmir and Razmiran gets mentioned in either background information or fiction he's described by the speaker as a 'con artist'.
Yeah, it seems to be common knowledge to anyone who hasn't been brainwashed at Thronestep. I vaguely recall his 'godhood' as being commonly known to be fake by anyone living in Absalom. (Apparently there's a big sign or something in Absalom that magically confirms such information*, just like how every commoner in Rahadoum can automatically tell when magic is arcane or divine, even though PCs need arcane sight, a 3rd level wizard spell, to do that.)
But that's boring. What's the story use for a con where everyone knows it's a con? Meh.
Some people might *claim* that Razmir isn't a god, but, logically, they should be taken as seriously as those who claim that Desna is Cthulhu's sister, or Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn are secretly in cahoots, or Norgorber is four halflings stacked on top of each other. Gossipmongering about the gods seems in poor taste, and, in a world where both gods and incredibly powerful wizards capable of seizing control of entire countries and establishing their own religions exist, unwise...
Assuming Razmir's got half a brain, it's not like the number of bridges to the Starstone Cathedral means anything. It's already murky enough, and even the people living *in* Absalom aren't old enough to know enough to contradict him, no matter what they claim 'must be true,' because they heard it somewhere. Cayden, Iomedae and Norgorber explicitly passed the Test of the Starstone. Aroden either was already a god or became a god in the act of raising the Starstone, but wasn't said to have then gone and taken the written exam ('cause, already a god, so why risk it?). Arazni seems to have become a god without the Starstone, for all the good it did her. Razmir can easily claim that the fourth (fallen) bridge represents his ascension and it's only fallen because of the naysayers trying to deny his divinity. Or he can spread some fake news around and say that the number of bridges has nothing to do with the number of people who passed the test, and that there where always four bridges (and that Iomedae crossed on her cape, as her 12th Act suggests, and had no need to cross any bridge), or obfuscate things by pointing to Arazni and claiming that she's also a Starstone Scion, just nobody talks about her anymore because of the whole Lich-Queen of Geb thing...
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This will be rather OT, and I apologize, but has there ever been any sort of an official answer on just how many of Golarion's people know that Razmir isn't a god, he's only a mortal man? It seems like every time Razmir and Razmiran gets mentioned in either background information or fiction he's described by the speaker as a 'con artist'.Far fewer than the number of people who do not know, but believe he is a charlatan.
Yes, unfortunately "knowing" requires some level of proof. And it's hard to prove a negative (usually impossible).
What you have to ask for is proof that Razmir is actually a god.
Which is really hard to come by. For any of the deities actually.
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{. . .}
Assuming Razmir's got half a brain, it's not like the number of bridges to the Starstone Cathedral means anything. It's already murky enough, and even the people living *in* Absalom aren't old enough to know enough to contradict him, no matter what they claim 'must be true,' because they heard it somewhere. Cayden, Iomedae and Norgorber explicitly passed the Test of the Starstone. Aroden either was already a god or became a god in the act of raising the Starstone, but wasn't said to have then gone and taken the written exam ('cause, already a god, so why risk it?). {. . .}
So THAT'S what happened to Aroden . . . .
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Thanks for the answers to my question. They do explain a lot.
Of course Razmir's being a 19th-level arcanist (officially a wizard, but I prefer to think of him as a sorcerer) with a nasty temper, as well as a whole army of similarly-powerful sorcerers in back of him, may also have something to do with the lack of people openly doubting him. Few people openly quarrel with someone who can meteor swarm them out of existence.
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Thanks to simulacrum, I wonder if a good dozen or so of the 'priests' serving at Thronestep, and across Razmiran, are actually half-strength copies of Razzy himself.
It may be hard to *find* good (absolutely trustworthy) help, but it's just a 7th level spell (and 4500 gp. in rubies) to *create* good (absolutely trustworthy) help. A dozen or more 9th level wizards could be useful to handle the light work, and perpetuate stories that you are everywhere, see everything, and, if 'killed,' will show up again unharmed later.
As they say, it's a trick, but it's a *good* trick. :)
Thanks to simulacrum, I wonder if a good dozen or so of the 'priests' serving at Thronestep, and across Razmiran, are actually half-strength copies of Razzy himself.
It may be hard to *find* good (absolutely trustworthy) help, but it's just a 7th level spell (and 4500 gp. in rubies) to *create* good (absolutely trustworthy) help. A dozen or more 9th level wizards could be useful to handle the light work, and perpetuate stories that you are everywhere, see everything, and, if 'killed,' will show up again unharmed later.
As they say, it's a trick, but it's a *good* trick. :)
Great idea as long as you make sure you can control them all.
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Simulacrum (the real 7th level spell, not the cheap imitation) says "At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner.". So no problem getting them to obey your commands as long as you can convey your commands to them.
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Simulacrum (the real 7th level spell, not the cheap imitation) says "At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner.". So no problem getting them to obey your commands as long as you can convey your commands to them.
Razmir's a bit of a control freak, from all appearances, so I would not put it past him to doubt the absolute obedience of a simulacra or summoned monster or whatever.
It would fit what I've read of him for the dude to not be on a first-name basis with sanity...
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^Hmmm . . . that sounds disturbingly familiar . . . .
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Simulacrum are copies of the real creature so they should be able to think for themselves. "Absolute command" means that it wont ever question your commands. That is different from "Can't make decisions on its own".
They are a copy* of the original creature so if the they should be able to bluff, use diplomacy and so on since they have the ranks. It's not like a construct with an int of -.
*I know they are not equal to the original creatures. <----In case it needed to be said.
Also, simulacra are weaker than the original and while they don't have all the original's knowledge, they do have lots of it -- which means that someone might not want weaker versions of himself wandering around where someone might capture and interrogate them and find out, say, the passwords to Razmir's vault in the Bank of Abadar.
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The big thing I don't like with Razmir is how the default assumption seems to be that folks (IRL folks) assume layfolk doubt his divinity more than they do other gods. He has an active church, that does "good" in your communities. His priests cast magic just like the Iomedians, they just charge you money instead of requiring you do a few good deeds for your neighbor. To the lay, no matter what implications the community or the iswg gives, they are priests to what quacks walks and smells like a god.
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The big thing I don't like with Razmir is how the default assumption seems to be that folks (IRL folks) assume layfolk doubt his divinity more than they do other gods. He has an active church, that does "good" in your communities. His priests cast magic just like the Iomedians, they just charge you money instead of requiring you do a few good deeds for your neighbor. To the lay, no matter what implications the community or the iswg gives, they are priests to what quacks walks and smells like a god.
Razmir's often heavy handed tactics, you know, oppression, murder et al, and the fact that he is NEW compared to even the "Upstart Gods", does not help his acceptance. The People of Golarian are not the Players of Pathfinder. They do not have the emotional distance of even a roleplayer, let alone a wargamer. It is not all the same thing to them.
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He's also doesn't behave like the other gods. He's present on Golarion ruling a kingdom, not off in some other realm doing godly things and only directly interfering occasionally.
Isn't the in-setting explanation given by his priests for this "Razmir isn't off in some ethereal Heaven, he's down here on Golarion so he can properly help his followers. He cares, unlike the other gods."
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Isn't the in-setting explanation given by his priests for this "Razmir isn't off in some ethereal Heaven, he's down here on Golarion so he can properly help his followers. He cares, unlike the other gods."He's also doesn't behave like the other gods. He's present on Golarion ruling a kingdom, not off in some other realm doing godly things and only directly interfering occasionally.
You can say that all you want, getting the people to buy into what you say is hard. Remember, Razmir may be the most successful pretender, but he is hardly unique in Golarian, with chamelean cults, godlike-wizards, and who knows what else. There is going to be a certain degree of native resistance, especially considering the costs of making a mistake can cost you a lot more than ridicule and limited loss of money and self-respect.
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The party in my campaign believes Razmir is not actually a real person, but rather he's five retired adventurers who used their combined magical power and influence to con a nation into believing a false figurehead.Hey, Norgorber may have gotten started that way . . . .
I heard that Norgorber was just two halflings standing on each others shoulders...
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^I had heard that it was four Halflings (one for each aspect of Norgorber), but still . . . .
Also, simulacra are weaker than the original and while they don't have all the original's knowledge, they do have lots of it -- which means that someone might not want weaker versions of himself wandering around where someone might capture and interrogate them and find out, say, the passwords to Razmir's vault in the Bank of Abadar.
Modify Memory solves. Yes, I know, it isn't on the Sorcerer/Wizard list -- Limited Wish(*) solves.
(*)"Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools."
