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So, we have a lot of info about Shifter. I figured I'd try my hand at piecing it together!
- Scaling claws at level one.
- Animal aspects, scaling up to five total selected by 20th, I believe.
- Wild Shape around when the Druid gets it, sounds like limited to aspect forms.
- Wis to AC while unarmored, half-Wis while wearing Druid armor, nothing in other armor. Don't get this from level one.
- Aspects are like Hunter's aspects, but do more. All listed animals have matched Hunter aspect animals, so let's assume we get those twelve aspects.
- Other aspects can modify your Wild Shape form. Capstone uses all five, iirc, so normally just one fusion?
Based on that:
- As is common with classes, things click at fourth. Wild Shape hits then. If you can pick a tiger aspect as we suspect, then you should be able to scale your form's size. This would support the goal of letting you focus on just a couple forms.
- Scaling claws from first sounds like Monk. Consolation for not getting a broadsword, but still need something above that. Aspect is probably just that.
- Second and third are empty, so let's assume second is Wis to AC.
- Even levels 4-10 mostly covered by better Wild Shape. Every other even level has increased Monk-scaling claw damage.
- If we get five aspects, and they should be odd levels, that suggests 1st and every four levels after that. This let's you get used to Wild Shape for a level before giving you a new form.
- That leaves third and every fourth for odd levels. We know aspects are better than Hunter and suspect that you can't use them all at once, so let's put those levels as aspect scaling.
Putting it together:
1: Claws, First Aspect, Speak Druidic, Alignment Restrictions
2: AC Bonus, Minor Archetype Fodder Ability
3: Aspect Ability
4: Wild Shape, Claws Scale, Claws Magic
5: New Aspect
6: Wild Shape Scales, Can Use Secondary Aspect Simultaneously (?)
7: Aspect Ability, Claws Pierce Cold Iron/Silver
8: Wild Shape Scales, Claws Scale
9: New Aspect
10: Wild Shape Scales, Nifty Tenth Level Ability
11: Aspect Ability
12: Claws Scale, ???
13: New Aspect
14: ???
15: Aspect Ability
16: Claws Scale, Claws Pierce Adamantine, ???
17: Final Aspect
18: Pseudo-Capstone
19: Aspects Get Capstone
20: Actual Capstone- Use All Aspects
It's possible Wild Shape will scale differently than Druid- that would throw things off quite a bit. Missing non-animal forms makes even levels above 10 hard to account for.
Still could use a few immunities like aging, disease, poison, paralysis, sickened, nauseated, staggered, and/or stunned.
Constant spell like effects that are supernatural and/or extraordinary such endure elements, freedom of movement, etc. would be nice.
I would be surprised if the shifter didn't get wild empathy, woodland strike, and/or similar abilities.
We know they get wisdom to AC but do they get additional dodge(or natural armor) bonuses as they level.
I would love for them to get 6+int skill points but would be fine with 4+Int skill points.
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Huh.
That's some interesting deductive work.
I wish. Sadly, it's almost entirely inductive. :P
It'll be fun to see what the actual version is!
(The scaling on the aspects is the biggest leap, I think. It would certainly make that ooze archetype tricky!)
Hold on... is there an actual official shifter class in the works? Will other classes appear in the same book?
Please cite some sources, I'm excited.
The book comes out in less then 2 months so you won't have long to wait.
I wish the shifter got a natural armor bonus based on it's con mod.
Playtest are nice but they can be a double edged sword.
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If only we'd had some sort of playtest. Or even a blog post. Not knowing stuff is a sad thing on a class I want to look forward too.
I do like what you've put together, QuidEst. It looks like an okay class.
We'll almost certainly get blog posts, two months out is just a bit early for those.
And there was a playtest, just not a public one.
Well, this is a predictions thread, so here are my thoughts on the "nice to haves" suggested.
Still could use a few immunities like aging, disease, poison, paralysis, sickened, nauseated, staggered, and/or stunned.
Ranger and Hunter don't have any immunities. Druid does get immunity from aging penalties and poison, so those are possible. If I'm right about the multi-step aspects, and what aspects we're getting, then I'd expect something like poison immunity to fall under snake.
Immunity to disease is an archetype deal even for Druid. Immunity to sickened and nauseated aren't thematically related to the class, and pretty much reserved for Oracle curses and maybe some bloodlines. Immunity to staggered and stunned I don't think have been given to PCs ever outside of maybe expensive items and possibly Unchained Synthesist Summoner? I really don't see them showing up here out of the blue.
Constant spell like effects that are supernatural and/or extraordinary such endure elements, freedom of movement, etc. would be nice.
That seems a little patchy for a non-casting class, so I wouldn't expect them on the class chassis itself. If somehow against all odds I got even the progression right, constant Freedom of Movement would make sense for a level 19 aspect capstone. Mouse, maybe?
I would be surprised if the shifter didn't get wild empathy, woodland strike, and/or similar abilities.
You make a good point! Wild Empathy should probably be added to first level features, and Woodland Stride seems like a possibility for second. (Placing Woodland Stride is hard, because the other nature classes get it at 2, 5, and 7.)
We know they get wisdom to AC but do they get additional dodge(or natural armor) bonuses as they level.
I'd lean towards 'probably not', but I'm not sure. I think the interview mentioned that it was making up for the lack of casting defensive buffs, which would include Barkskin, but I don't recall for sure. You can reasonably expect to have a Wisdom bonus of +5 by level twenty, which is what you'd get from an Amulet of Natural Armor. Beast Shape III gives you a net +2 in huge. That's missing +2 or +3 from Unchained Monk at high levels, and you're getting major strength bonuses that the Unchained Monk doesn't get.
I would love for them to get 6+int skill points but would be fine with 4+Int skill points.
I'd put my money on 4+Int. It's most directly modeled after Druid, and it can't step on the Barbarian's toes too much. That said, Hunter and Ranger are both 6+Int, so that's far from out of the question.
I wish the shifter got a natural armor bonus based on it's con mod.
We've had almost no constitution substitutions, and the biggest was reverted back. It'd also make a dragon archetype less likely- it'd have to either trade that feature out or take a big hit somewhere else, since the Form of Dragon spells give big Con bonuses, where animal forms don't. It might be cool, but it wouldn't be balanced.
What I'm curious about is if the class incentivizes shifting into a form other than raptor/big cat for combat. It'd be a real shame if the pounce forms remain the one true beatstick options.
Agreed. The interview mentioned combining a pounce aspect with a strength-boosting aspect (I think?) was good, so pounce might still be king.
Pounce and +Str on the same package? Geez, if that's true a shifter is only really going to have listed aspects -1 available to choose since I can't think of much of anything that can even eat the dust trail left by Pounce+StrWhat I'm curious about is if the class incentivizes shifting into a form other than raptor/big cat for combat. It'd be a real shame if the pounce forms remain the one true beatstick options.Agreed. The interview mentioned combining a pounce aspect with a strength-boosting aspect (I think?) was good, so pounce might still be king.
That's a combination of two aspects.
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I think it will be good....def plugs a gap.... still think a new class should always get a playtest.... which actually makes me think that it might fall short in quality as a design.
Which IMO = no playtest
Unless of course we're talking about a select group of customers being picked to do it? This is slightly better as some sort of objectivity is brought in. A pure Paizo in-house play test is almost meaningless.
I think it will be good....def plugs a gap.... still think a new class should always get a playtest.... which actually makes me think that it might fall short in quality as a design.
As has been stated numerous times, there has been a playtest. Just no more public ones. Creates too many issues, apparently.
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I'm bummed that it's a nature themed class, or seems to be. While the game needs a martial shifter I was hoping for something with customizable flavor: Morphing into undead, constructs, dragons, etc based off flavor preference.
I'll be happy if there are archetypes with different flavors.
Designed to plug the 'Nature Paladin' gap I think
Designed to plug the 'Nature Paladin' gap I think
Nature Paladins? I don't think such a thing is even possible due to the conflicting alignment restrictions. Maybe a Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good deity focused on nature, but even if alignment isn't an issue, I'd struggle to see a typical Paladin support the way of Nature, due to how seemingly cruel it can be.
I'm bummed that it's a nature themed class, or seems to be. While the game needs a martial shifter I was hoping for something with customizable flavor: Morphing into undead, constructs, dragons, etc based off flavor preference.
I'll be happy if there are archetypes with different flavors.
The podcast mentioned that there will be archetypes with other flavors, citing the ooze archetype as an example.
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The podcast mentioned that there will be archetypes with other flavors, citing the ooze archetype as an example.I'm bummed that it's a nature themed class, or seems to be. While the game needs a martial shifter I was hoping for something with customizable flavor: Morphing into undead, constructs, dragons, etc based off flavor preference.
I'll be happy if there are archetypes with different flavors.
And I am certain there will be more to come as the game continues to progress. We can't have all the nice things we want immediately with a brand new class--it just ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.
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Plus, of all the alignment restrictions and flavor requirements, I feel like Druid-like is the easiest to get GM approval on dropping- even more so on a non-caster. I'll probably be making a lawful evil VMC rakshasa bloodline character and grabbing the tiger or wolf aspects, if they're in.
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Which IMO = no playtest
Unless of course we're talking about a select group of customers being picked to do it? This is slightly better as some sort of objectivity is brought in. A pure Paizo in-house play test is almost meaningless.
Would it be almost meaningless if it was almost pure Paizo in-house play test with you included? Careful, it's a trick question. :)
Prediction or wishful thinking.
Class options or archetypes that allow you to assume the form of more exotic wildshape forms, giants, magical beasts, undead, dragons.
A late game option that allows the Shifter to assume gargantuan forms.
It would have been nice if the class had built in options of what creature type you could focus on changing into but it looks like we will have to rely on archetypes for that.
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I think it will be good....def plugs a gap.... still think a new class should always get a playtest.... which actually makes me think that it might fall short in quality as a design.As has been stated numerous times, there has been a playtest. Just no more public ones. Creates too many issues, apparently.
Especially when the community starts thinking no one is listening and gets proof they aren't when bad options stay bad.
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What I'm curious about is if the class incentivizes shifting into a form other than raptor/big cat for combat. It'd be a real shame if the pounce forms remain the one true beatstick options.Agreed. The interview mentioned combining a pounce aspect with a strength-boosting aspect (I think?) was good, so pounce might still be king.
Pounce is always gonna be king, but this sounds like you can get Pounce via an Aspect (probably Tiger) and thus apply it to, say, a Bear form. Or a Wolf.
So you could potentially add Pounce, extra Str, and claws onto a Wolf and have a pouncing Wolf of doom.
That's neat.
Which IMO = no playtest
Unless of course we're talking about a select group of customers being picked to do it? This is slightly better as some sort of objectivity is brought in. A pure Paizo in-house play test is almost meaningless.
As I understand it, this is pretty much exactly what they did. It's been stated as a closed playtest, not an in-house one and several other statements seem to imply this as well.
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Especially when the community starts thinking no one is listening and gets proof they aren't when bad options stay bad.I think it will be good....def plugs a gap.... still think a new class should always get a playtest.... which actually makes me think that it might fall short in quality as a design.As has been stated numerous times, there has been a playtest. Just no more public ones. Creates too many issues, apparently.
There's sorta a vicious cycle going on there, where people get angry that they seemingly aren't listened to, and then become abusive to the folks at Paizo, who then become much less inclined to listen to people.
Where it started is almost immaterial at this point because it's self-propagating. In many ways, nobody who takes the attitude you just demonstrated is a useful playtester any longer because it's hard to sort through the vitriol for any valid data.
Now, you personally might be consummately objective while playtesting, I have no idea...but people who take the attitude you just did, or similarly unpleasant ones, while playtesting absolutely do exist, and Paizo taking their advice on anything is so vanishingly unlikely as to defy belief.
This is not to say that Paizo is utterly blameless...but it's hard to know who to blame, why it happened that way, or how the internal processes work. Looking at the ACG for example, a particularly controversial and venomous playtest (I know, I read through the threads), the same person was in charge of the Swashbuckler (widely considered, including by me, a failure to listen to playtesters on Paizo's part) and the Investigator (whose Studied Combat is a triumph of listening to playtester input).
So...that's a weird juxtaposition. What is responsible for it? People in the Swashbuckler thread being much angrier about the whole thing? Editorial meddling? The rush to get the book out by Gen Con?
I honestly have no idea...but most people I've seen complain about it blame either the designer personally or the concept of Paizo as some nebulous entity that doesn't listen. Which is weird. Paizo is made up of people. Like all people, they listen better to suggestions and criticism that are not phrased as personal insults and attacks on their competence.
Such suggestions are not unknown in recent playtests, but the signal to noise ratio is really bad in terms of angry 'this class sucks' posts to actual useful information. The signal to noise ratio of mathematical analysis to actual playtesting is similarly really bad. I'm guilty of that one myself, in fact. The people at Paizo can do mechanical analysis themselves (you can argue they don't do it as well as you can...but there's some hubris there and we're back to insulting their competence), that's not the data they're looking for.
The combination makes public playtesting really labor intensive to get anything useful out of, and the folks at Paizo have been super busy recently.
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I would prefer to forget about the ACG playtest:( But lets get pack to the subject at hand. Now what class skills do you think the shifter will have?
I think the shifter will have acrobatics, craft, climb, disguise, handle animal, heal, intimidate, knowledge(geography), knowledge(nature), perception, profession, sense motive, stealth, survival, and swim as class skills.
Yeah, I'd expect something very close to that, but without Sense Motive (out of place on a nature class) or possibly Acrobatics (which isn't handed out as often as you'd expect- even Ranger doesn't get it), but with the addition of Fly.
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Sense Motive could be visible tells too, and on a class where I imagine body language could be a thing, since a lot of animals use it for a lot of different things...
Well, it's likely the difference between the rattlesnake leaving you alone or striking you because you didn't understand what the rattle meant.
I wonder if the shifter will get any bonus feats.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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Which IMO = no playtest
Unless of course we're talking about a select group of customers being picked to do it? This is slightly better as some sort of objectivity is brought in. A pure Paizo in-house play test is almost meaningless.
The playtesting for the shifter also included freelance authors working on the project. As I was tasked with writing all of the shifter archetypes, I did some extensive playtesting and fielded information back to the design team. Everyone who worked on the book (10+ freelancers?) had access to those rules. I can't recall how many others playtested but there was considerable discussion on the class from many of us.
The above, by the way, is standard with all of the hardcovers I've worked on (starting with Occult Adventures going all the way through closed playtest work I did on Starfinder). The Paizo design team works hand-in-hand with freelancers and fields notes/input from them in their own design work.
...As I was tasked with writing all of the shifter archetypes, I did some extensive playtesting and fielded information back to the design team...
Hmmm. It's too bad kytons and Zon-Kuthon are LE instead of NE. A NE shifter worshiping a NE Z-K/kyton deity would meet the classes alignment requirement (assuming there is one, mirroring the druid's); they'd be horrifying manifestations of Nature's seemingly unending variety and adaptability, cruelly playing elaborate games with their prey.
The playtesting for the shifter also included freelance authors working on the project. As I was tasked with writing all of the shifter archetypes, I did some extensive playtesting and fielded information back to the design team. Everyone who worked on the book (10+ freelancers?) had access to those rules. I can't recall how many others playtested but there was considerable discussion on the class from many of us.
The above, by the way, is standard with all of the hardcovers I've worked on (starting with Occult Adventures going all the way through closed playtest work I did on Starfinder). The Paizo design team works hand-in-hand with freelancers and fields notes/input from them in their own design work.
Well thats something at least, although I do strongly feel that in order to avoid bias there should ALWAYS be input from people who have no vested financial interest in the product in question.
Thats why although the ACG had major issues in the eyes of many, at least there was a public playtest involved.
Cheers for the reply
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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The playtesting for the shifter also included freelance authors working on the project. As I was tasked with writing all of the shifter archetypes, I did some extensive playtesting and fielded information back to the design team. Everyone who worked on the book (10+ freelancers?) had access to those rules. I can't recall how many others playtested but there was considerable discussion on the class from many of us.
The above, by the way, is standard with all of the hardcovers I've worked on (starting with Occult Adventures going all the way through closed playtest work I did on Starfinder). The Paizo design team works hand-in-hand with freelancers and fields notes/input from them in their own design work.
Well thats something at least, although I do strongly feel that in order to avoid bias there should ALWAYS be input from people who have no vested financial interest in the product in question.
Thats why although the ACG had major issues in the eyes of many, at least there was a public playtest involved.
Cheers for the reply
Having a financial interest in a product has a less than 0 percent effect on playtesting. While you're wrong about why playtesting is important, you're right that the more eyes there are on a project the more inconsistencies and corner-cases can be discovered. Diversified playtesting opportunities are always better than small focus groups from my experiences.
However, when you cast the net too large it becomes a daunting task to separate the good input from the "lol needs more" input that's about as valuable to the design team as water to a drowning person. The main reason I'm assuming there was no public playtest (because I honestly don't know for certain why there wasn't one for both this and Starfinder) is labor.
Collecting, interpreting, valuating, and discussing playtest data takes exponentially more time the more playtesters are involved. What I can say is that Starfinder and Ultimate Wilderness shared 100% of the same design teams and overlapped in their development cycles, which looks to me like it was strictly a labor issue due to not having the "boots on the ground", so to speak, to make use of the data a playtest would generate.
Design also doesn't have control over when Starfinder went into development, if I had to wager a guess. Typically those kinds of decisions are made from higher up on the chain than the design team. So it was a matter of needing to do 2x (if not 3x when you consider the complexity of Starfinder) of the work with 1x of the labor and 1x of the budget. Something had to give.
I am sure the shifter will have a good fort save but hopefully it will get a good ref save or even better a good will save.
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I am sure the shifter will have a good fort save but hopefully it will get a good ref save or even better a good will save.
Good fort and reflex seems likely to me. That's what animals get, after all, and they don't seem to have the level of "the class wouldn't make much sense without good will saves" that Vigilante does.
It could also only have a good fort save but I would prefer two good saves. if it's good saves are fort and ref then hopefully some of archetypes will change ref to will if it fits the creature type you focus on like dragons, undead, etc.
I hope the shifter is the first thing they preview for Ultimate Wilderness.
Just a couple more weeks to go:)
How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?