Shifter prediction.


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Shadow Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:

I'm right now having a beer with an IT exec and he did laugh hard when I told him about the "internal QA is biased, external input must be provided in order to ensure quality" thing people have here.

D'OHOHOHOHOHOHO!


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My prediction is based on my fondness for the Lapith 3rd party race and the likely dashing of my hopes to emulate that race with some form of the Shifter class:

The centaur form will be a sub-optimal choice at any level at which it is available.


Dragon78 wrote:

Just a couple more weeks to go:)

How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?

I predict eight, like Vigilante, although I wouldn’t be surprised if we got six or so because they turn out to be more involved.

I think we have three confirmed so far? Ooze, wild, and fiendish.


I am hoping for 10 but your wright it might be much lower depending on how involved the archetypes will be.


Whoops, miscounted. I’m getting nine for Vigilante’s initial release now that I count again.


Dragon78 wrote:
How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?

3-4.


graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?
3-4.

Hmm. Just looked at what other data points we have. Only other single-class release was Magus with four archetypes, so could be.

Paizo Employee Designer

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QuidEst wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?
3-4.
Hmm. Just looked at what other data points we have. Only other single-class release was Magus with four archetypes, so could be.

4 in one book and 9 in another? Without looking at my copy, it's been long enough that I don't remember, but I'm going to take the average and say 6.5 then. Given that an archetype that was different enough will require its own list of new forms, 9 seems too many to fit, but it also likely has more pages devoted to it than the magus archetypes.


Mark Seifter wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
How many archetypes do you think the shifter will get in Ultimate Wilderness?
3-4.
Hmm. Just looked at what other data points we have. Only other single-class release was Magus with four archetypes, so could be.
4 in one book and 9 in another? Without looking at my copy, it's been long enough that I don't remember, but I'm going to take the average and say 6.5 then. Given that an archetype that was different enough will require its own list of new forms, 9 seems too many to fit, but it also likely has more pages devoted to it than the magus archetypes.

Sounds pretty reasonable. The podcast mentioned at least one archetype that sounded reasonably like it didn't mess with the actual forms list- a less controlled and more wild shifter. So at least they probably don't all have to worry about re-writing options to pick from.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Given that an archetype that was different enough will require its own list of new forms, 9 seems too many to fit, but it also likely has more pages devoted to it than the magus archetypes.

This is why I was thinking the number would be on the low end. I sounds like the class has plenty of moving parts and each archetype could end up taking a lot of real estate. Myself, I see more than 3-4 and I'll be happy. People wanting 9-10 are likely to be disappointed.

PS: Howdy Mark. Been awhile since I've noticed a post from you in he threads I've been posting in. Nice to see you. ;)


Oh well, no 8-10 archetypes, but 5-7 is better then 1-4.


graystone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Given that an archetype that was different enough will require its own list of new forms, 9 seems too many to fit, but it also likely has more pages devoted to it than the magus archetypes.

This is why I was thinking the number would be on the low end. I sounds like the class has plenty of moving parts and each archetype could end up taking a lot of real estate. Myself, I see more than 3-4 and I'll be happy. People wanting 9-10 are likely to be disappointed.

PS: Howdy Mark. Been awhile since I've noticed a post from you in he threads I've been posting in. Nice to see you. ;)

I’m happy already. The ooze archetype sounds really cool, and a fiend tainted archetype is pretty cool. Whatever else we get is gravy on top.


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I just hope that they allow the ooze archetype for PFS...

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I will literally start playing PFS if they let me sleep in a bucket as my gross ooze archetype.

That said I hope folks really like the archetypes. I don't know if the design team wrote any of their own, but otherwise they were all my little squrimy babies.


QuidEst wrote:


I’m happy already. The ooze archetype sounds really cool, and a fiend tainted archetype is pretty cool. Whatever else we get is gravy on top.

I quite hesitant. Having the shape change based off of wildshaped isn't what I was hoping for in the shifter so I don't know if the base class is going to be something I like. I'm hoping that I'll at least like one of the archetypes, but we'll see.


I hope I like the shifter and find the archetypes I am looking for.


Dragon78 wrote:
I hope I like the shifter and find the archetypes I am looking for.

I hope so too but everything I've heard about it didn't seem to match up with what I'd hoped the class would be. I'm going to have to see the finished product and look over the class before I buy the PDF. This might be the first PDF in while I pass on.


Graystone, what exactly were you hoping the shifter would be like?


I know I would have preferred something that is at-will, rather than than wait four levels and be a druid without spells. Getting natural attacks is kinda nice, but there are a ton of ways to get them.

At the very least I hope it doesn't have to use wild armor and shields just to keep up. It's not worth a +3 anymore after the "clarification" nerf and while yes, Shifter's apparently have Wisdom to AC like Monks(though Constitution would have been more thematic) even Monks need Bracers of Armor and, perhaps, a Monk's Robe.


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I hope that the Shifter class is set up to provide a lot of interesting options. Doing that might not require a lot of archetypes if enough flexibility is built into the main class and major archetypes.


What "clarification" nerf did wild armor get?


That even though it's now melded into your form you still take all the penalties of wearing the armor. Armor Check Penalty, Arcane Spell Chance Failuer(if it applies), Max Dex, No Monk AC Bonus, and the like. Note there is nothing to support this in the text.

There was a +2 armor enchantment that did exactly that in 3.5. At most that is what nerfed wild should be.


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Dragon78 wrote:
Graystone, what exactly were you hoping the shifter would be like?

Azten Is thinking like me.

At will shifting from 1st: I don't want to be a shapechanger waiting 1/5th of my levels before I can change.

For me, shifting is more important than natural weapons: I'd rather have an at will change self level shift that gives no bonuses/attacks than natural weapons.

Armor: Azten understands my worry. Is the class meant to like a monk? A druid? Is it meant to rely on an innate natural armor bonus from shifting, and therefore not activated until later levels. Wondrous items maybe?

So pretty much I wanted a class that shifts and happens to get linited natural weapons as it levels but we got a natural weapons build that happens to get limited shapeshifting as it levels. I might end up liking what we get but I can't help thinking that I'd have liked it more if the focus was 'shifted' to something different.


The Agatheil Vigilante sounds like it does that. At the very least it tries and doesn't screw you out of your equipment(except hands, but what if you are a monkey?).

That aside, yes, not having our first 'shapeshifting' ability(claw attacks? We can't even pick what Natural Attack we'd like?) shared by a ton of other classes or just plain beaten by races that can get them all the time would have been great.


Azten wrote:

The Agatheil Vigilante sounds like it does that. At the very least it tries and doesn't screw you out of your equipment(except hands, but what if you are a monkey?).

That aside, yes, not having our first 'shapeshifting' ability(claw attacks? We can't even pick what Natural Attack we'd like?) shared by a ton of other classes or just plain beaten by races that can get them all the time would have been great.

Agatheil was EXACTLY what I was thinking of... Full equipment [go, go Ape power!!!] and your option of what natural you want [bite attack, a gore attack, 2 claws or 2 slam attacks].

Granted, it doesn't actually get shapechanging until 4th but I can at least do a pretty good job of LOOKING like the animal so it's workable. If the shifter falls behind the Agatheil, I'm going to be quite disappointed.

PS: on ape/monkeys, the blog talked about how animals with hands could use weapons physically but prefered their own natural ones. As such, I don't think hands for a PC animal are an issue. ;)


If it falls behind Agatheil might see the nerf bat XD


Azten wrote:
If it falls behind Agatheil might see the nerf bat XD

It'd be nice if that wasn't a distinct possibility.

Everyone, hide the archetype... :P


Looks like we only have until next week to find out what the class will really be like.


Dragon78 wrote:
Looks like we only have until next week to find out what the class will really be like.

Not 'we'. PDF's aren't out until the 15th of next month and even then I'm not seeing it unless someone I know happens to get it. I'm most likely going to have to wait until it comes out on the online sources before i get a chance to look through everything.

If anyone is curious why, I don't buy books after ACG and I rarely buy PDF's without preview look. Of course I'll be happy to read any info people want to leave in threads once they get the material.

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I'm sure those of us with subscriptions will be posting information that is relevant as soon as we have it available. I for one can't wait to get my PDF copy and see what this shifty shifter is all about. :)


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When I get it I'm going to go in rather pessimistic. If it's actually really good, I get to be pleasantly surprised. If it isn't... I'm not disappointed as much.


Yeah, if you hype yourself up too much then you will never be happy with what you were excited about;)


cartmanbeck wrote:
I'm sure those of us with subscriptions will be posting information that is relevant as soon as we have it available. I for one can't wait to get my PDF copy and see what this shifty shifter is all about. :)

Oh, I hope to see plenty of relevant info! For me though, I want to see it set out on the page, compare the archetypes back and forth with the base class, mull over the feats, ect... It's hard for me to say I want to buy it until I actually SEE it and can see the whole thing together. I'm not in desperate need of a wilderness book in general so it's ALL on how much I like/dislike the class and from the info already out it's already iffy IMO.

The 'relevant info' is going to have to be darn impressive for me to buy before actually seeing it. ;)

Azten;LOL Compared to me, you seem fairly optimistic. You seem sure you're getting the book and I'm not even close to there yet.


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I try to get first printings so if an option is killed off by errata or a 'clarification' I still have the good stuff. It's why I look for first printings of Ultimate Combat.


I like getting first printings as well. If I don't get a book around it's release then it is rare for me to ever get it. In other words, if it does interest me I get it, if it doesn't I will not get it.


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Azten wrote:
I try to get first printings so if an option is killed off by errata or a 'clarification' I still have the good stuff. It's why I look for first printings of Ultimate Combat.

Way back machine does it for me. I dislike having a colorful paperweight when the internet can do the work for me. ;)

Dragon78: I USED to get 1st prints until ACG came out... That book used up ALL my good faith in physical book from this company. I've got to see it first now.


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For me Occult Adventures renewed that faith;)


Dragon78 wrote:
For me Occult Adventures renewed that faith;)

Not for me. A debacle of the magnitude of the ACG can't be washed away with a well made book or two.

Shadow Lodge

Point of order. Got my first email for my subscription yesterday. SHOULD see it middle of next week, which means you should start seeing the early subscribers middle of next week. Just saying. If there is a hype train, you can probably get on it.

Silver Crusade

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graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
For me Occult Adventures renewed that faith;)
Not for me. A debacle of the magnitude of the ACG can't be washed away with a well made book or two.

Man, I hope nobody ever applies the same unflinching standard to some SNAFU in your own work or private life.


Gorbacz wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
For me Occult Adventures renewed that faith;)
Not for me. A debacle of the magnitude of the ACG can't be washed away with a well made book or two.
Man, I hope nobody ever applies the same unflinching standard to some SNAFU in your own work or private life.

Yeah that would be a lot of baggage to have to carry around.


Handy Haversack of Hillarity wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
For me Occult Adventures renewed that faith;)
Not for me. A debacle of the magnitude of the ACG can't be washed away with a well made book or two.
Man, I hope nobody ever applies the same unflinching standard to some SNAFU in your own work or private life.
Yeah that would be a lot of baggage to have to carry around.

*shrug* If I messed up as badly as ACG, I'd hope people would put me to a higher standard for it. I've seen accidental tire fires with better planning and organization. I have no intention of forgetting they sold me something so subpar I think I should get money back above a refund. :P

To put it plainly, I once bought a car and it spontaneously combusted after 1 week. I don't buy that brand of car again: They might make great cars now, but why should I trust that the same thing isn't going to happen again?

if you think differently, that's fine. I just expect professionals that want my business to act like professionals and provide me a professional product: Pushing out a product that's clearly subpar fails in every criteria IMO. I can forgive mistakes but this wasn't a mistake. It was a calculated move to sell a broken product and 'fix' it later. I don't think me wanting to not buy their products 'sight unseen' anymore is unjustified: who knows when a new situation will come up when they think it's ok push out another unfinished work? Maybe never, but my cash is staying in my pocket until I make sure.

Shadow Lodge

So glad to hear you know exactly what Paizo's business plan is.

That being said, it's your money, do what you want.


TOZ wrote:
So glad to hear you know exactly what Paizo's business plan is.

You missed the point. I DON'T know what it is. That's why I don't know when they might feel like it's ok to put out another ACG quality book.

And to everyone replying to me that seem offended I'm not loving Paizo enough... I just posted I was going to wait to see the book before buying... If people don't like what I've said is my reason for no pre-ordering, then the quickest way to solve that is to not reply to my opinion.

TOZ wrote:
That being said, it's your money, do what you want.

I don't understand why so many feel the need to convince me my feelings on the subject are wrong. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, Just saying why I wouldn't be getting it the moment it hits the streets.

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:
TOZ wrote:
So glad to hear you know exactly what Paizo's business plan is.
You missed the point. I DON'T know what it is.

You sure sounded certain. Perhaps in the future use phrasing such as "I feel" rather than "It was".

Edit: Actually, having brought that up, I should explain that it comes from conflict resolution. Saying "You did X" makes it sound like an attack on the subject. Focus more on how you feel rather than what the other party did. "I felt disrespected when this happened, and here is what would have made it better."

And as I further consider it, the best wording I could have used was "I read your response to be very certain, and insulting Paizo's professional capabilities." Hopefully that is the best example of the difference.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
insulting Paizo's professional capabilities

The thing is that they seem to HAVE high professional capabilities which makes ACG all the more damning in my eyes. the higher you think of someone's abilities, the higher you expect of their work: ACG doesn't reflect well on anyone involved.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
You sure sounded certain. Perhaps in the future use phrasing such as "I feel" rather than "It was".

I'm 100% sure ACG was deliberately put out flawed. Again, I'm SURE they are far more capable than the book I bought indicates. It was too mangled, in numerous ways, for it to be simple errors, mistakes and oversights. So I'm sure what it WAS when the ACG come out: shove it out the door for a certain convention and fix it later. As to what the 'business plan is' NOW, I hope it's to never repeat something like ACG again: I worry that if another time crunch comes along, quality isn't going to suffer again.

As to the rest, it's a bit to 'PC' for me. I'm an old foggie back from when 'he' was the expected pronoun and and we only had 2 genders. As such I don't notice 'microaggressions', in other or myself. I'm fine with your first comment as it's straight forward and to the point: I get what you're saying.


Wow, this is an interesting conversation about the Shifter class.


Dragon78 wrote:
Wow, this is an interesting conversation about the Shifter class.

It ALL started from your post on "we only have until next week to find out what the class will really be like." Everything after is about my reply to that. ;)

Grand Lodge

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graystone wrote:

I'm 100% sure ACG was deliberately put out flawed.

Oh, I am certain that you believe that. I also am certain that your belief does not make it true. And that you absolutely understand why people respond the way they do to your statements.

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