Back on track with shifter predictions!
How viable do folks think it will be stacked next to druid, hunter, cleric, warpriest, and paladin?
What kind of guesswork are we going to venture forward and consider about the new class?
How much different is it from the Beast Course of Vigilantes?
I'd love a shifter playstyle focused around shifting natural attacks around on a round to round basis, like some sort of living weapon.
Barring that, if Shifters can qualify as the Shapeshifter subtype for feats so I could give one Gruesome Shapeshifter I would be so happy.
*Sees ships course being righted* Right now its just sounding like a hybrid druid/monk class. Which might be ok too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Barring that, if Shifters can qualify as the Shapeshifter subtype for feats so I could give one Gruesome Shapeshifter I would be so happy.
Expanding on this, if they could explicitly take monster feats or racial feats for races not their own, it could be pretty cool too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it full BAB?
I have been wanting to play a full BAB shape shifter since I first saw the druid...
The Shifter is a full BAB class with d10 HD. Skill points unknown, good saves unknown, class skills unknown. Gains claws at level one, gets a version of wild shape at level 4 I believe. Also gets aspects similar to the hunter that adds interesting options/combinations.
Last I heard it didn't have any spell casting at all.
If it's kind of like a slayer (which gives up ranger spell-casting, if memory serves) that might not be so bad. If it's 'a fighter with some fancy bling features' (but not a brawler) then it might not be so good.
If it's kind of like a slayer (which gives up ranger spell-casting, if memory serves) that might not be so bad. If it's 'a fighter with some fancy bling features' (but not a brawler) then it might not be so good.
Well, we know it’s able to shift into specific forms and augment them with different forms. You also get scaling damage claws. To me, that’s already more interesting than slayer’s bonus damage and ranger combat feats.
Well, we know it’s able to shift into specific forms and augment them with different forms. You also get scaling damage claws. To me, that’s already more interesting than .
If it's kind of like a slayer (which gives up ranger spell-casting, if memory serves) that might not be so bad. If it's 'a fighter with some fancy bling features' (but not a brawler) then it might not be so good.
We aren't really treading any new ground though, so it's really going to be how everything comes together.
For instance: advanced weapon training/sacred weapon let a claw scale and claws aren't hard to get. Wildshape type changing isn't hard to find either at 4th. Feral hunter allows for wildshape and Feral Focus...
We'll have to see if it comes out more interesting than "slayer’s bonus damage and ranger combat feats".
Perhaps some way to be able to 'full attack' or 'extra attack' while moving, reflecting the mobility of the class?
Perhaps some way to be able to 'full attack' or 'extra attack' while moving, reflecting the mobility of the class?
It would definitely be appropriate for the Shifter to have a "Pounce" ability -- perhaps at 4th level, when the Pounce evolution becomes available to the Unchained Summoner.
My innate pessimism states those interesting aspects are going to boil down to "pounce" and "things that assist in murdering stuff while pouncing"
Yep, I'm right there with you. It's why I was hoping for a base/1st level change self type ability for more use out of shapechange than 'die!!! claw, claw, bite...'.
For instance, an Agathiel Vigilante at least gets to LOOK like the animal it gets to beast shape into at 4th, so it shows some versatility out of combat.
Perhaps some way to be able to 'full attack' or 'extra attack' while moving, reflecting the mobility of the class?
I'd expect some kind of ability like this in a natural weapon/shifting class: I just hope it's not the central reason/focus for the class. I'm REALLY hoping for a lot of out of combat options.
As for pounce, I think one of the interviews confirmed it as a tiger ability. Dunno whether it’s only as a tiger, or also as a secondary option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it tiger only then that just continues to make Big Cats the main combat animal, whether in form or companion.
If it tiger only then that just continues to make Big Cats the main combat animal, whether in form or companion.
Yep. "I'd LIKE to pick a [fill in the blank] but not getting pounce..." I'd expect a glut of tiger shifters if that's the case.
Mhmm. I’m hoping for some good reasons to pick/use other forms.
Mhmm. I’m hoping for some good reasons to pick/use other forms.
Oh, you and me both. I just understand it's near impossible to expect someone to bypass pounce. If it's locked into a certain form, you'd need something equally useful in combat to make it a viable option over it. That's not something easy to do.
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.
If, but not only if. Plus, even if you don’t consider it the only viable option, it is annoying when the options you like are much worse than one stand-out option, or when you see something over and over because it’s the best.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.
Or the I don't like losing 2-3 attacks every time I move mindset. the difference between single and full round attacks is FAR too great to be seen as some kind of powergaming: It's just common sense. It's even greater for a natural attack build where every attack is at full BAB and as likely to hit as the first.
Not taking pounce IS a serious hit to viability vs a non-pouncing version if you're a melee combatant. That's not to say that there would never be a reason to pick another form, it's just saying that doing so is making a deliberate choice to be less effective in combat which means the form has to be impressive enough to compensate you for that. For instance, a 'wolf' form that makes free combat maneuvers after a charge hits or a stealth type sneak attack ambush. I'm all for variety but if it's pounce and a bunch of 'meh' options, I expect to see a lot of pounce...
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.Or the I don't like losing 2-3 attacks every time I move mindset. the difference between single and full round attacks is FAR too great to be seen as some kind of powergaming: It's just common sense. It's even greater for a natural attack build where every attack is at full BAB and as likely to hit as the first.
Not taking pounce IS a serious hit to viability vs a non-pouncing version if you're a melee combatant. That's not to say that there would never be a reason to pick another form, it's just saying that doing so is making a deliberate choice to be less effective in combat which means the form has to be impressive enough to compensate you for that. For instance, a 'wolf' form that makes free combat maneuvers after a charge hits or a stealth type sneak attack ambush. I'm all for variety but if it's pounce and a bunch of 'meh' options, I expect to see a lot of pounce...
"Viable" is a really low bar to clear. It just means it works or is feasible. Having a small animal companion is viable, even if there are clearly better options. But I do agree with the sentiment.
As for comparable features…
- Wolf might just give free trip attempts on bite attacks, regardless of charging. Really, any "every round" ability, and things that works with attacks of opportunities for reach builds. Opening round, I'll want pounce, but the long-term value of mid-combat feature could outweigh it.
- Flight is a pretty important feature later on. Pounce loses a lot of usefulness in aerial fights, since you need to start from at least the same height to charge mid-air.
Or tiger might grant pounce even when it's a secondary form. In that case, you can grab any of the forms and put pounce on.
"Viable" is a really low bar to clear.
I'm looking at viable as more 'practical' as opposed to bare minimum workable. For a big chunk of players, clearly inferior options just never get used because 'practical' viability beats out 'technically workable' viability. ;)
As to comparable features, that kind of thing is what I'm hoping for. I want each form to be good enough it's a tough choice on which I want to have.
As for pounce, I think one of the interviews confirmed it as a tiger ability. Dunno whether it’s only as a tiger, or also as a secondary option.Tiger and one other aspect get it.
Cool, thanks!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.
Or, you know, the "Kill the thing before it can kill myself, my friends, and possibly others' mindsets. Or do abilities like Smite Evil, Archery, Inquisitor's Bane, 9th level casters, and Instant Enemy fall into "I MUST WIN D&D" category too?
I mean, I guess if we all pick subpar options and don't optimize in the slightest we're playing the right way, correct? Is that the way, oh great Prophet Gorbacz? ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.Or, you know, the "Kill the thing before it can kill myself, my 3friends, and possibly others' mindsets. Or do abilities like Smite Evil, Archery, Inquisitor's Bane, 9th level casters, and Instant Enemy fall into "I MUST WIN D&D" category too?
I mean, I guess if we all pick subpar options and don't optimize in the slightest we're playing the right way, correct? Is that the way, oh great Prophet Gorbacz? ;)
Why demand good, balanced, well-designed options when it's so much easier to just imply that everyone who doesn't intentionally cripple their own characters is a dirty powergamer who only cares about DPR? ;)
- - -
Anyway, my prediction for the Shifter is that it'll get animal aspect a few times a day, wild shape even fewer times a day and... That's about it. I'll be honestly surprised if it doesn't end up as little more than a slightly different, full-BAB, no-spells version of the Feral Hunter.
|
Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.Or, you know, the "Kill the thing before it can kill myself, my friends, and possibly others' mindsets. Or do abilities like Smite Evil, Archery, Inquisitor's Bane, 9th level casters, and Instant Enemy fall into "I MUST WIN D&D" category too?
I mean, I guess if we all pick subpar options and don't optimize in the slightest we're playing the right way, correct? Is that the way, oh great Prophet Gorbacz? ;)
Yes, Jerry, it is.
And here I was ready to start making horrible "bear arms" jokes, but a mentioned above, pounce is hard to pass up.As for pounce, I think one of the interviews confirmed it as a tiger ability. Dunno whether it’s only as a tiger, or also as a secondary option.Tiger and one other aspect get it.
Look Owl let you stick to avian puns and you let me keep it grizzly with my unbearable puns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just some updates from the product thread.
- Each aspect has minor and major forms.
- Before Wild Shape, you can take on an aspect for 1 min/level.
- Wild Shape is different than the Druid version. Each aspect lists the abilities you get, rather than just using the Beast Shape list. Nice to have the forms more balanced.
Yes, Jerry, it is.Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.Or, you know, the "Kill the thing before it can kill myself, my friends, and possibly others' mindsets. Or do abilities like Smite Evil, Archery, Inquisitor's Bane, 9th level casters, and Instant Enemy fall into "I MUST WIN D&D" category too?
I mean, I guess if we all pick subpar options and don't optimize in the slightest we're playing the right way, correct? Is that the way, oh great Prophet Gorbacz? ;)
Wow. Everyone who doesn't cripple themselves is wrong? That sounds pretty sad, and I wouldn't want to be in any game you ran,
And that's not my name.
|
|
Yes, Jerry, it is.Of course, pounce is the only viable option if your mindset is of the "I MUST WIN D&D" type.Or, you know, the "Kill the thing before it can kill myself, my friends, and possibly others' mindsets. Or do abilities like Smite Evil, Archery, Inquisitor's Bane, 9th level casters, and Instant Enemy fall into "I MUST WIN D&D" category too?
I mean, I guess if we all pick subpar options and don't optimize in the slightest we're playing the right way, correct? Is that the way, oh great Prophet Gorbacz? ;)
Wow. Everyone who doesn't cripple themselves is wrong? That sounds pretty sad, and I wouldn't want to be in any game you ran,
And that's not my name.
Thaaat's exactly how my games look like. We cripple ourselves and enjoy it.
Also, that pumpkin by Jillian of Midgard *is* wicked, I agree.
Predictions ehh...
*Grins*
The Shifter will be compared unfavorably to the Paladin.
*Laughs maniacally*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Shifter will be compared unfavorably to the Paladin.
That's impossible unless the shifter can fall from performing an 'evil' act... :P