Hey all,
So Illusion spells of the phantasm type usually allow for a Will save to disbelieve at the onset of the spell, but then, I'm a little unclear of whether a target ever gets another chance if they fail.
Unlike figments, their save entry doesn't say 'if interacted with' but there are a lot of spells that raise a lot of questions otherwise.
As an example, take any of the hallucination spells; a target who fails that initial save thinks what they see/hear is real.. but what if someone tells them it's not? or what if they witness proof that it's not themselves?
Do they ignore that? Does the mind-affecting aspect of these spells mean their brains fill in the gaps or otherwise reject the evidence? Nothing in the spell says anything like that though.
I'm inclined to think that they should follow the general rules for disbelief but I just wanted to get other people's thoughts on this.
Thanks
They do not get a Disbelife save, because its all in their head, they think they are touching the phantasm because their brain tells them thay are.
From the CRB Phantasm: a phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Well, they get 1 disbelief save; the initial one when the spell is cast.
so, what happens then when a victim of a phantasm is exposed to absolute proof what they see isn't real?
As an example, take a paladin who fails against a complex hallucination spell and now sees a demon. Like, I dunno, a Babau.
I get that no one else can see this thing but what happens when the paladin declares her smite evil against it and.. nothing happens because it's an invalid target?
if they failed their save, they believe they see their sword connecting with a flash of Holy fire (or whatever their smite looks like) the l=rest of the party is wondering why the paladin is shouting challenges to empty air. I would probably say that in that specific example, the paladin just thinks they used a smite, and so wont lose a use /Day
Even if the hallucination has the target walk into a wall, in the mind of the target, he/she is going down a passageway and not stopped at the wall like other members of the party see.
It is extremely difficult to come up with an example wherein someone else "points out" what is in their mind is false, as their mind will compensate for the reality.
Ask your GM. It's hard to run illusions consistently.
Personally I find one way seems to be overpowered and another way seems to make them useless. It's hard to find an appropriate middle ground.
Well, I am the GM in this case. :)
But you're right, finding a balance for illusions can be tricky.
In regard to the spell making you think resources are being spent when they're not; that opens up a whole can of worms. I mean, a paladin thinking her smite evil workes when it really didn't is one thing, but what if it's a wizard who decides to cast magic missile?
It just seems very messy in terms of mechanics to let them run that way.
I agree with you that ones claiming that the spell forces the mental state beyond the specific effect described in the spell probably go a little too far.
It's no less or more messy than if the character was hit by an enchantment effect doing something similar. Proof doesn't matter--they're still affected. The paladin smites the demon, and (per the rules for audiovisual hallucination) either the demon disappears or the caster makes the demon behave "believably"--either by getting damaged and pissed off or grinning and shrugging off the paladin's feeble damage.
The question of "what happens if you try to cast a spell/use an expendable resource on an invalid target under the belief that the target is valid" is separate and extremely prone to table variation.
Edit: To be clear, the paladin isn't forced to freak out and keep smiting. If the paladin believes it's a hallucination, the paladin can behave as such, but the hallucination still continues, which could be pretty funny in practice. This isn't a compulsion.