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I think Wisdom would have made a better choice than Charisma, if they had to use a mental stat.
It could at least help out on Will saves, and the Solarion actually gets more Wisdom based class skills than Charisma anyway.
Of course I have no playtest data to back this up, but an "enlightened warrior" seems more wisdom-like flavorwise, to me.
So they're the new Chained Monk, huh?
Pity, I really would like to play one if it wasnt't this screwed up mechanically...
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It's not. Try it out before writing off a class based on less than a week of theorycrafting.
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Resolve points will do more for your survival than constitution. Because of the way stamina works you don't need a higher starting Con than 12, although a 10'is perfectly serviceable. The quick rest resolve point use is far more useful than most abilities that consume resolve.!
So a lashunta with +2 str/+2 cha could have a starting array of 16 str 13 dex 10 Con 10 int 8 wis 16 cha. You can shore up the low wisdom with iron will and ability increases at level up.
The class needs to be built to play to its strength, not be built as a second rate soldier.
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The class needs to be built to play to its strength, not be built as a second rate soldier.
/thread
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The class needs to be built to play to its strength, not be built as a second rate soldier.
Mind you, it's strengths IS being a second rate soldier (Favoring Photon). As it's actual control ability are kinda weak as it has very little actual stickiness.
Solarians can top soldiers in melee damage, and come on, isn't it the fighter's turn to be the best combat class?
I agree, the moving dudes around bit seems lackluster, but I'm holding out judgement a bit longer. Some way of making them stay put until your next turn would be nice.
I really like that disarm ability personally. I'm also planning a ranged solarion. While it was designed for melee, I think the abilities also complement the use of small arms.
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I haven't gotten to try a Solarian yet, but it's worth noting Starfinder's ability point system is harsher on MAD than Pathfinder's point buy.
In PF, an 18 and a 10 cost the same as a 15 & 16. In Starfinder, it's 14 & 14. If you needed three stats, 18,10,10 cost the same as 14,14,15. SF, it's 14,12,12.
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At level 1. At level 5 it's 14 14 16 vs 14 14 16. At 10 it's 14 14 17 vs 16 16 18.
You start with lower overall stats, but have much more and more
Balanced rather quickly.
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Solarians can top soldiers in melee damage, and come on, isn't it the fighter's turn to be the best combat class?
I agree, the moving dudes around bit seems lackluster, but I'm holding out judgement a bit longer. Some way of making them stay put until your next turn would be nice.
Moving dudes around is a bit lackluster until you get clever with it. Pull that hard-to-hit enemy out of their full cover so your soldiers and operatives and such can open up on them. Tug someone into hazards. Leap out into space and pull half your enemies out with you, then jet back in and leave them helpless. Pull your biggest, shootiest allies into cover so that they can devote all their actions to firepower without needing to make a dash for safety. (Heck, that's all pretty basic. You've got to improvise to your situation, because it's always going to be a matter of "When would that ever happen" until suddenly you're right in the middle of that unlikely situation.)
If folks want to play someone big and damage-y and simple, they ought to play a soldier. If they want to play someone with mystical space-balance powers, they should play a solarian (and I mean actually play a solarian, not just write solarian on the sheet and carry on trying to play like you're a soldier).
And those folks who can't manage to be clever? Who can muster no inspiration in their play beyond showing up to the table with solved builds and expecting to win purely because their numbers are biggest and their math is sound? Well, the soldier remains a fine choice if one is finding it too difficult to play cleverly.
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Oh no, I agree there's uses for it. Maybe situational, and you won't use them every chance you get, but I think I'll be ok with that. I think a lot of the use will come down to encounter design. If the GM is good about giving varied encounters and not just set piece battles, everything gets a lot more attractive.
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At level 1. At level 5 it's 14 14 16 vs 14 14 16. At 10 it's 14 14 17 vs 16 16 18.
You start with lower overall stats, but have much more and more
Balanced rather quickly.
Hey, you're right! I hadn't even noticed the changes to ability score advancement.
That makes relying on multiple abilities scores much more viable.
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Personaly I hope they add an easily achived feat or ability that lets you change your Key ability. Mostly because alot of classes Key abilities as written are mostly steering players into one kind of build rather than allowing different approaches to the same class. Solarion in particular, which has alot of ways to ignore having a low charisma except the low resolve points you'll have. A high str and cha operative is also viable if the key ability is switched. Same with high dex mechanic. I'll probably house rule this in but it'd be nice to have the option.
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Personally, I think they're never gonna do that and probably shouldn't.
I'm increasingly convinced that how well the Key Ability synchronizes with other Class Features is a part of balancing the Class in question. I mean, if Str were the key stat for Solarian there'd be very little reason for anyone to ever play a melee Soldier, since Solarian is just better at several melee things than Soldier will ever be (DPR most notably).
Solarian gets some good stuff in exchange for being a bit MAD, is sorta where I'm going with that.
I genuinely believe they meant to give the class 6 and forgot
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I can definitely see an argument lore-wise why Solarion should be Wisdom instead of Charisma.
But from a gameplay perspective, a Solarion is really left without nothing to do in space combat without Charisma. Captaincy is about the only thing they'll be reliably good at. Yes they can get Engineering and Computers with their extra class skill choices, but because they probably don't have the room to up Intelligence reliably, I think Charisma works fine.
They make decent gunners, but any Solarion with a melee focus is likely not to have a huge Dex mod.
If I'm playing a Solarion in a group with no Envoy, I'll probably go captain.
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I can definitely see an argument lore-wise why Solarion should be Wisdom instead of Charisma.
But from a gameplay perspective, a Solarion is really left without nothing to do in space combat without Charisma. Captaincy is about the only thing they'll be reliably good at. Yes they can get Engineering and Computers with their extra class skill choices, but because they probably don't have the room to up Intelligence reliably, I think Charisma works fine.
They make decent gunners, but any Solarion with a melee focus is likely not to have a huge Dex mod.
If I'm playing a Solarion in a group with no Envoy, I'll probably go captain.
The Solarian has plenty of non Charisma based skills:
Perception, sense motive, mysticsim, profession (I know but its something) and possibly survival (if thats a skill you wnat to get from the bonus skills they get at level 1)So there is a good arguement for Wisdom, IMO
Like I said, there is an argument to be made, but without Charisma focus Solarions don't have much to contribute to spaceship combat which is a tent-pole of the game.
I agree it's kind of weird, but I'd rather see them get more mileage out of Cha than have their primary attribute changed, at least personally.
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The thing is, CHa doesnt really do anything for them saves wise which, if you're a melee solarian, you bet your ass some will saves are gonna be coming your way once the spellcasters see
Oh, this glowing sword wielding man on fire is hitting pretty hard, better get that guy out of the fight
and then you're screwed due to a low will save
Will is still a high save for Solarions, so even without much investment they do alright Will Save wise.
The thing is, CHa doesnt really do anything for them saves wise which
Yeah. That's why I said it'd be cool if they got more out of cha innately.
I will say regardless that the Solarian's kind of... weird. Cha is its key score but nothing about the class really feels like it pushes you toward Charisma other than that.
It's got twelve class skills, which puts it tied with mystic for the second most class skills in the game (with envoy and operative tied for first)... but it's got the lowest tier of skill points at only 4+. Quite possibly the fewest skill points period, since Technos and Mechanics are int based and even soldiers could likely afford a higher Int by being less MAD.
That right there almost seems to suggest they ought to be Int based, or at least have 6+ baseline like TheGoofGE3K suggested upthread. Or maybe automatically gain ranks in the two skills they pick at level 1.
As people have already talked about, Wisdom would have natural synergy to help with its saves... but I get the feeling Wisdom was specifically avoided so it wouldn't feel quite as monk-in-space.
Charisma, as a stat, is in rather a poor place. It's the only stat with zero mechanics other than it's skills.
It really feels like the stat itself needs a boost.
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Charisma, as a stat, is in rather a poor place. It's the only stat with zero mechanics other than it's skills.
It really feels like the stat itself needs a boost.
This is the truth. It's not so much that Solarian has a stat other than their main attack one as Key, it's that Charisma is the weakest stat.
If looking for a House Rule to fix this, my standard Pathfinder House Rule of allowing people who want to use Cha rather than Wis on Will Saves to do so tends to work out fairly well historically.
I haven't decided whether to import it to Starfinder quite yet, but must admit I'm leaning in that direction.
I'm ok with the saves idea but charisma and strength for to hit and damage would be to much I think. Solarion does the best melee damage already. I suppose they could of done the kind of like 4th edition where the better of chr/wis for will str/con for fort and int/dex for ref. maybe they cna make it a revelation later and have it work liek the paladin blessing. I don't really see a problem as is but more if you want more charisma related stuff I suppose go that route.
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@TheGoofGE3K
Why do you say that?
Because all other classes gain a number of skill points equal to half their number of class skills except the solarion. Mechanic Technomancer and soldier get 4 skill points with 8 class skills. Envoy and Operative have 8 and 16. mystic is 6 and 12. Only odd one out is the solarion with 4 and 12.
Cha helps keep the solarian MAD which prevents it from invalidating other classes with it's really powerful kit of abilities.
Premier melee damage, AC boosters, control abilities, and even skill roll enhancements. It's a very disruptive all rounder that can be strong in every situation. So yeah, your gonna boost every stat to keep you unspecialized.
At level 1. At level 5 it's 14 14 16 vs 14 14 16. At 10 it's 14 14 17 vs 16 16 18.
You start with lower overall stats, but have much more and more
Balanced rather quickly.Hey, you're right! I hadn't even noticed the changes to ability score advancement.
That makes relying on multiple abilities scores much more viable.
Yes and at 16 and below for stats you get 2 points per boost and you get 4 boosts to allocate at level 5 and 10. You pretty quickly can round out your characters and bring secondary/tertiary stats up to a solid level. The initial starting stats are more limited so initially solarians feel a bit stretched but make it to level 5 and you start breathing a lot easier.
Cha helps keep the solarian MAD which prevents it from invalidating other classes with it's really powerful kit of abilities.
Premier melee damage, AC boosters, control abilities, and even skill roll enhancements. It's a very disruptive all rounder that can be strong in every situation. So yeah, your gonna boost every stat to keep you unspecialized.
Is it really premier melee damage in every situation though? Plasma Sheath is fire damage. So against resistant or immune enemies you'd have your insight bonus from Photon atunement to compare against a Soldier's Melee Striker Gear Boost (which seems to even out). The Solar Weapon itself seems to become competitive with the Dimensional Slice Longsword (both appear to average 63 damage from their die sizes) at level 20. Though it looks like there are breaking points where an advanced melee weapon may do more damage than a Solar Weapon vice versa (*edit: I'm just referencing 1h Advanced Melee vs a Solar Weapon in this example). That really depends on how much cash you have to upgrade, but just looking at the weapon averages it looks like there are break points of effectiveness for both options.
The AC booster is only applicable to light armor and creates an ability point juggling gaming to try to keep it relevant. If you want to absolutely max out your Dex bonus to keep the AC as high as possible then you have to make sacrifices.
The Control Abilities require a high investment into Charisma which you may not see until after level 5 or even 10 depending on what you prioritize. Yet, compare the effectiveness of control spells for the Technomancer or Mystic that may just split focus between Dex, for ranged combat, and their primary casting stat. If either wishes to build as a melee then they run into the same problem as the Solarian. However, their class design isn't as encouraging towards melee as it is for the Solarian, like Flashing Strikes.. ugh.
The skill roll enhancement is cool, but it enforces specialization until 11th level where it gets a little better. You have to select either Graviton *or* Photon skills to add your 1D6 insight bonus. That's only 2 skills you may wish to focus on or just let this ability compensate if you don't max out ranks. And again, you can only get the benefit from 1 of those two selected until 11th when it opens up slightly. Either way, I don't see this ability overshadowing other classes. By the time you can have 5 of either Graviton or Photon skills, other classes are likely to be competitive or exceed the Solarian outside of very dedicated builds. The Solarian won't even overshadow a Soldier with this ability as the Soldier has other skills like Engineering that are not applicable to Sidereal Influence. So this perk doesn't seem that strong, when compared to other skill focused class features, and the insight bonus is lost in combat (no enhancing Intimidate for Demoralize).
I'm just Devil's Advocating on your points. The Solarian is an interesting class, but the design decisions seem very questionable to me. Making the class MAD for the sake of it doesn't sit well with me when the benefits you're locked out of aren't exactly game breaking things. The class is still very playable in a number of ways, but I can't help feeling it is held back for no other reason than just to make it MAD.
I wonder if giving it 6+ Int per level in skills, and Solar Weapon + Solar Armor would be all that game breaking. Activating both would require the same move action to grab the Mote that floats around your head, and I see no reason why Quick Draw couldn't apply. It's not like you're putting on the Solar Armor. It just appears at the end of the move to grab your fluffy space ball.
This is starting to remind me of the chained rogue where the class said you need dex but that was a less than optimal build
I feel like the stats to prioritize are str>dex=cha?everything else.
Because of resolve points restoring HP and changes to health in general con isn't nearly as important as it used to be.
Wisdom would be nice for some skills or will save but isn't really required.
Int would be nice for more skill points, but isn't really required.
So using a race that gets +2 to str & cha you can start with:
str 16
dex 14
con 10
wis 10
int 10
cha 14
Which should be a perfectly viable starting ability score set.
The only thing is that there is pretty much only 1 race that has a charisma & str bonus.
Now, the Ability Quick Pick method would offer an alternative stat set, so that race and them don't determine your score, but unfortunately those don't offer the level of rounded I would like to see.
Focused 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 10 <-- Too specialized
Split 16, 16, 11, 10, 10, 10 <-- Close, but i'd rather see the second stat lowered and the 3rd raised
Versatile 14, 14, 14, 11, 10, 10 <-- Too diverse
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It's not. Try it out before writing off a class based on less than a week of theorycrafting.
there IMHO pretty good though its all on paper since i have not played one yet
i made a brutal "at least on paper" halfling ranged solarian the other day.the str builds are a bit tricker at level 1 but its not that bad
Both of your examples are currently very viable under the current rules. You'll simply be a few resolve points behind.
A high str/cha operative would need to pick a specialization that allows trick attacks from a str or cha skill, like athletics or bluff. I have a high dex mechanic, 16 dex, 16 int. In fact, I'm not a sure a 10Dex mechanic is very viable unless you're turning him into a exocortex tank.
Try to think before you complain. Honestly, solarian is the only class I see that has a key ability not viable to most builds. And really if you want to tank the key ability on any class then do it, wanting to change the rules to optimize your idea is kind of cheesy.
Personaly I hope they add an easily achived feat or ability that lets you change your Key ability. Mostly because alot of classes Key abilities as written are mostly steering players into one kind of build rather than allowing different approaches to the same class. Solarion in particular, which has alot of ways to ignore having a low charisma except the low resolve points you'll have. A high str and cha operative is also viable if the key ability is switched. Same with high dex mechanic. I'll probably house rule this in but it'd be nice to have the option.
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Culture, Diplomacy, Stealth
1. Fleet, Skill Adept (Bluff, Culture), Solar Armor, Black Hole, Supernova
2. Gravity Boost
3. Jet Dash, Sidereal Influence(Diplomacy, Stealth), Weapon Specialization
4. Stellar Rush
5. Enhanced Resistance(Kinetic Damage) ||17str 14dex 12con 12int 10wis 16cha||
6. Crush
7. Iron Will, Flashing Strikes
8. Blazing Orbit
9. Blind-Fight, Zenith Revelations(Star Acceleration, Wormholes)
10. Stealth Wrap||18str 14dex 14con 14int 10wis 18cha|| Skill: Bluff
11. Deflect Projectiles, Sidereal Influence(Culture, Bluff)
12. Soul Furnace
13. Weapon Focus (adv melee), Solarian’s Onslaught
14. Gravity Shield
15. Improved Iron Will ||18str 16dex 16con 16int 12wis 18cha|| Skill: Sense Motive
16. Astrologic Sense
17. Great Fortitude, Zenith Revelations(Ray of Light,Time Dilation)
18. Gravity Hold
19. Lightning Reflexes,Sidereal Influence(Intimidate, Sense Motive)
20. Hypnotic Glow, Stellar Paragon ||18str 18dex 18con 18int 14wis 18cha|| Skill: Intimidate
Personal upgrades in str, cha, and dex
I said premier melee damage because of full bab and onslaught. For armor, you end up a couple points behind, but grav shield helps close that. For skills, you actually need int to make use of that ability. I have set up here a diplomat/rogue set up but if I didn't boost int, I wouldn't have the skill points for it.
I'm just saying the class about balance with the universe may work the best with a balanced array. You get to do a lot and because this isn't PF, being a generalist doesn't make you useless.
** spoiler omitted **
Personal upgrades in str, cha, and dexI said premier melee damage because of full bab and onslaught. For armor, you end up a couple points behind, but grav shield helps close that. For skills, you actually need int to make use of that ability. I have set up here a diplomat/rogue set up but if I didn't boost int, I wouldn't have the skill points for it.
I'm just saying the class about balance with the universe may work the best with a balanced array. You get to do a lot and because this isn't PF, being a generalist doesn't make you useless.
Ah, I follow ya.
Neat build with the Android btw!