Many questions about surprise spells


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hi,
I have many questions about surprise spells. I know a lot of answers already are on the website. But I began to learn english six months ago and I did not all understand.

1- Does sorcerer’s Bloodline (draconic or orc) increase with surprise spells ?
Ex with Scorching ray :
12d6 (spell) + 10d6 ( sneak attack)+ 12 (draconic bloodline) or 22d6 (spell + sneak attack) +22 (draconic bloodline)

2- If sneak attack is adding to spell ( with surprise spells). Do maximize spell and empower spell work with ?
Ex with maximize spell :
72(12d6) + 10d6 ( sneak attack) or egal to 132 ( 22d6)

3- Does Sniper goggles work with surprise spells ?
Ex with scorching ray whitin 30 feet
12d6 + 10d6 +20 or not

4- If i cast scorching ray the first round. Do I add sneak attack to spell and i have normal sneak attack anyway ?
Ex : 12d6 ( spell) +10d6 ( surprise spells) +10d6 ( sneak attack) or not ?

5- As a spell with many targets is casted with sneak attack ,It’s usual that sneak attack’s damages are applied to one target. is that the same with surprise spells ? or Is the sneak attack adding to every ray ?

6- I read on website that we use surprise spells everytimes we can use sneak attack. But on the description it says your target should be flat-footed. So i can use this during the first round if my targets don't act. Is not ? don’t it work if i attack during the fight invisible being ?

Thank you for reading me and sorry for my English.


First, for a basis.

Arcane Trickster, Surprise Spells wrote:
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Quote:

1- Does sorcerer’s Bloodline (draconic or orc) increase with surprise spells ?

Ex with Scorching ray :
12d6 (spell) + 10d6 ( sneak attack)+ 12 (draconic bloodline) or 22d6 (spell + sneak attack) +22 (draconic bloodline)

Based on the examples used for the spell, the sneak attack damage is 'part' of the spell and deals the same type. Therefore, they are dice of fire damage, and your bloodline increases them. In the above example, you add +22.

(Note 1: Scorching Ray does not deal 12d6 damage.)
(Note 2: This would be the same if you did not have Surprise Spells.)

Quote:

2- If sneak attack is adding to spell ( with surprise spells). Do maximize spell and empower spell work with ?

Ex with maximize spell :
72(12d6) + 10d6 ( sneak attack) or egal to 132 ( 22d6)

I would say that Empower Spell and Maximize Spell do not apply; they both specify affecting the variables of the spell itself, and in this case, the sneak attack damage is a rider to the damage, not actually part of the spell.

Quote:

3- Does Sniper goggles work with surprise spells ?

Ex with scorching ray whitin 30 feet
12d6 + 10d6 +20 or not

As normal for Sniper Goggles, you get a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack die, for +20 total.

Quote:

4- If i cast scorching ray the first round. Do I add sneak attack to spell and i have normal sneak attack anyway ?

Ex : 12d6 ( spell) +10d6 ( surprise spells) +10d6 ( sneak attack) or not ?

No. Surprise Spells doesn't change the normal rules of sneak attack, and they all need to be flat-footed anyways for Surprise Spells to do anything.

All Surprise Spells does is let you get sneak attack damage on spells that do not require attack rolls.

Quote:
5- As a spell with many targets is casted with sneak attack ,It’s usual that sneak attack’s damages are applied to one target. is that the same with surprise spells ? or Is the sneak attack adding to every ray ?

As per the FAQ on the matter, and a related FAQ, a spell with multiple attack rolls or multiple individual instances of damage (such as Scorching Ray or Magic Missile) add the sneak attack damage only once, to one bolt. Surprise Spells doesn't change this.

Conversely, spells that damage an entire group at once, such as Fireball, is just one single instance of damage that happens to hit multiple targets, and sneak attack will apply to all such targets.

Quote:
6- I read on website that we use surprise spells everytimes we can use sneak attack. But on the description it says your target should be flat-footed. So i can use this during the first round if my targets don't act. Is not ? don’t it work if i attack during the fight invisible being ?

If you are invisible, opponents are flatfooted to your attacks. If you are attacking before them in combat, they are also flatfooted to your attacks. Both of these function to let you use Surprise Spells.

On to the notes:
You mention 12d6 a lot for Scorching Ray, but the spell, as typical, is actually 4d6 damage, but with multiple such attacks. While this means little if you are targeting the same foe with all rays and they all are hitting, it is an important distinction.

Second note is that, for a great deal of what you have mentioned here, Surprise Spells is not required. A lot of these circumstances can be met simply under normal criteria of casting Scorching Ray at flatfooted foes. Surprise Spells only changes it to work on spells that do not require attack rolls, such as Fireball, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, etc.


Thank you for your answer.

There are things that i don't understand.

You said « the sneak attack dommage is part of the spell » and « Empower Spell and Maximize Spell do not apply; they both specify affecting the variables of the spell itself »

I would have thought that sneak attack works with metamagic feat. I find it contradictory but if you’re sure. Okay .

Then « Second note is that, for a great deal of what you have mentioned here, Surprise Spells is not required. A lot of these circumstances can be met simply under normal criteria of casting Scorching Ray at flatfooted foes. Surprise Spells only changes it to work on spells that do not require attack rolls, such as Fireball, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, etc. »

So if i cast scorching ray without surprise spells
= 12d6 +10d6 ( usual sneak attack )
and with surprise spells it’s the same 12d6 + 10d6( surprise spells)

I don’t understand why it subtracts the usual sneak attack.

I would say 12d6+10d6 ( spell + surprisespell) + 10d6 (usual sneak attack)

Am I wrong ?

I looked for again the rules of invisibility and i don’t found that being invisibility makes your ennemies flat-footed.

The rules that I found says . « ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC ».
The rules for flat-footed says « character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity »

For me that is not the same thing.

Can you quote me the rule that you have please ?

Thank you


tiarakia wrote:

You said « the sneak attack dommage is part of the spell » and « Empower Spell and Maximize Spell do not apply; they both specify affecting the variables of the spell itself »

I would have thought that sneak attack works with metamagic feat. I find it contradictory but if you’re sure. Okay .

The sneak attack damage is added to the spell's damage, but this isn't part of the act of casting the spell. The core difference here, in my opinion, is that Empower Spell and Maximize spell both reference the variables of the spell itself, which is something you're determining before you actually finish casting it (and anything like bloodline arcanas or sneak attack can apply).

Quote:

Then « Second note is that, for a great deal of what you have mentioned here, Surprise Spells is not required. A lot of these circumstances can be met simply under normal criteria of casting Scorching Ray at flatfooted foes. Surprise Spells only changes it to work on spells that do not require attack rolls, such as Fireball, Burning Hands, Magic Missile, etc. »

So if i cast scorching ray without surprise spells
= 12d6 +10d6 ( usual sneak attack )
and with surprise spells it’s the same 12d6 + 10d6( surprise spells)

I don’t understand why it subtracts the usual sneak attack.

I would say 12d6+10d6 ( spell + surprisespell) + 10d6 (usual sneak attack)

Am I wrong ?

The key is in the wording, "an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed.". You are already adding your sneak attack damage to any spells that require attack rolls (as part of Sneak Attack's rules itself), what this class feature is doing is expanding it to affect all spells instead of just those that require attack rolls.

You can't add Sneak Attack to the same attack twice.

Quote:

I looked for again the rules of invisibility and i don’t found that being invisibility makes your ennemies flat-footed.

The rules that I found says . « ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC ».
The rules for flat-footed says « character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity »

For me that is not the same thing.

Can you quote me the rule that you have please ?

This is a point I am willing to fall back on, as the wording here does appear to be somewhat stricter than that used by ordinary Sneak Attack.

So using fireballs while invisible will not be as great use to you. Unless, of course, your opponents aren't expecting combat.


Sneak Attack does not apply a metamagic because it is NOT a spell, it is an additional effect added too a spell. You can still cast the spell with added metamagic and then add your sneak attack damage too the total.

Scorching Ray is NOT 12d6...it is 4d6 with multiple rays, the sneak attack damage only effects the first ray too hit, this is important because you can miss with some of the rays and can shoot at different targets.

Surprise spell does not add Sneak Attack damage, it allows Sneak Attack damage to be applied too certain spells. Hence the reason you don't get the damage applied twice too the same attack.

If the target is flat footed and you are using a targeted spell, one you make a roll to hit, you can add Sneak Attack damage without using surprise spells.

Too add Sneak Attack damage too NON attack roll spells you must use surprise spells.

If you are denied your Dex bonus you are also considered flat footed, at least where Sneak Attack is involved.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I understand better how to use surprise spells. Thank you a lot.
You have answered all my questions.
Good game.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Many questions about surprise spells All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.