Will the Kingmaker CRPG potentially affect the possibility of a reprint or updated version?


Kingmaker


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I know the potential for reprinting a specific AP has been discussed before, but I am kinda wondering if the video game may cause a new version to be printed. I have issues running games via pdf (there are a number of various reasons I am not going into) but I also enjoy seeing hard copies on my shelf. The first two books are going for ridiculous prices, and I'd rather my money go to Paizo directly and I would HAPPILY wait to snap up a compilation or new edition set if that happens to be a plan in the future.

On the other hand, if this looks like it will still be a never-to-reprint kind of situation, then I'd rather get which ones I can while they are reasonably priced now, and simply see about getting the first two pdfs professionally printed.


I used to run from the actual books, but now I actually prefer running from the printed pdf. It allows me to mark all over it with my own notes, modifications, etc.

If you never ran Kingmaker before, I strongly suggest using the materials that have been shared on these messageboards. I ran it when it was first released and my group and I loved it. Now I am preparing to run it again, using a ton of modifications - so much so that it will feel like a completely new experience.

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to your original question. I don't know if Kingmaker was too hot/cold for the Pathfinder community to warrant Paizo releasing a hardcover compilation. I just wanted to say that running it was one of my best tabletop RPG experiences (and I've been doing this for over 30 years). Please don't let the lack of physical copies cause you to miss the experience.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cat Whisperer wrote:
Please don't let the lack of physical copies cause you to miss the experience.

It isn't so much the lack of physical copies, it is more that I had to choose between a desktop computer and a laptop and the desktop is in a different room than the gaming room. PDFs work great when I need to buy something for a reference that doesn't need to be directly on hand, but it doesn't go so well when I try running an adventure directly from it. I'd be saving so much money if it did. I just wish I had known about Pathfinder earlier than I did.


The Lone GM wrote:


It isn't so much the lack of physical copies, it is more that I had to choose between a desktop computer and a laptop and the desktop is in a different room than the gaming room. PDFs work great when I need to buy something for a reference that doesn't need to be directly on hand, but it doesn't go so well when I try running an adventure directly from it. I'd be saving so much money if it did. I just wish I had known about Pathfinder earlier than I did.

I agree. Running from PDF is fine up to a certain adventure size, after that it gets really bothersome. This goes, in my opinion, double for something as involved as an AP where you often want (need) to switch between volumes to cross reference something. It's not impossible of course, but without a pricey tablet with drawing capabilities for notes I think the physical product wins.

It would be so cool if Kingmaker got a reprint. Doesn't even have to be a special edition. It was my first ever AP as a player, and from what I gathered at that time and for years afterwards, it sparked numerous long discussions about exploration, hexcrawling and domain management that spanned multiple forums and different games or retroclones. The blogosphere in particular almost exploded for a while on that topic, it was great. Suddenly, people, who before would have never touched Pathfinder with a ten foot pole, talked about how Kingmaker fulfilled the promise of kingdom management that often went largely unfulfilled in older incarnations of the game.

Even though I'm not planning to run an AP in the foreseeable future, if I were able to buy a Kingmaker reprint I might change plans immediately :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Cheap, big tablets exist, you know. And you can add notes easily using most PDF readers on 'Droid and iOS.


You say "easily", I say "clumsy". Personal preferences, and all that. I don't deny it's possible and workable, and I don't mind using my tablet for bestiaries and rulebooks, but when it comes to adventures I much prefer a physical product.

Dark Archive

Isn't Paizo's M.O. that they reprint stuff only when they update stuff they reprint?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, usually, but Distant Worlds got reprinted without updates. It was an exception from the rule, tho.


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For a while now, I've been toying with posting a Kingmaker rewrite that incorporates rules published since Kingmaker came out, and possibly fleshing out some of the alternate takes here on the boards.


Would that be permissible? It seems like you'd either have to refer to the books constantly or re-write almost everything to not run afoul of their rules, even if not attempting to earn a single penny.

Silver Crusade

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"Here's what all I changed in Kingmaker!" Is perfectly fine to post to these boards as elsewhere, as long as you don't try to make money off of it ^w^


I agree with those of you that prefer to have a physical copy in front of you when running a game. I have a PC in my game room, but I only use it to show my players a picture or a map. When it comes to running the game, I print the pdf and put it in a 3 hole binder.
I love being able to hand write my own notes into the AP. I read the book before running it and I can make notes, highlight stuff, etc. - things I would never do to an original copy.


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Rysky wrote:
"Here's what all I changed in Kingmaker!" Is perfectly fine to post to these boards as elsewhere, as long as you don't try to make money off of it ^w^

I've already done a little bit of that here, as have other Kingmaker GMs ...


Rysky wrote:
"Here's what all I changed in Kingmaker!" Is perfectly fine to post to these boards as elsewhere, as long as you don't try to make money off of it ^w^

Well, yeah, but that's far from what is implied by a 'rewrite'. Still, I would love to see Kingmaker fully updated and reworked with all the rules from Ultimate Campaign and Ultimate Intrigue, with the new classes and beasts worked in where appropriate, and a lot more focus on the kingdom as actually being a meaningful part of the story, rather than just a side minigame.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've been quietly working on a sequel to Kingmaker. Kingmaker 2: The March of Progress, using what I've learned from running/modding Kingmaker the first time around.

There's a part of me that's tempted to file off the serial numbers in order to make it publishable. But it's still early days yet so I've not made a decision regarding that yet.


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Hmm. I guess we could ask someone? If nothing else, it might be fun to put together a Google Doc that's basically a "Book of Scenarios" and link it on here. Each chapter would be a scenario written up by one of the regular posters here -- things like the Monster Kingdom, the Spring Feast, Venture Capital, and so forth. Or maybe offer encounter rewrites that incorporate newer rules.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I redid the Kingdom Building rules in my campaign so that the characters in charge of their various roles can make more decisions, and to abstract it a bit more so it doesn't become bogged down in the minutia of individual buildings in individual towns.

I'd gladly contribute to a community Kingmaker Expansion Pack.


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In the category of rules updates, some things occur to me, in no particular order:

  • Ultimate Campaign updated the kingdom-building rules, and the Downtime/Capital rules with a little tweaking can represent the PCs' personal power and political capital within their kingdom.

  • The Advanced Players Guide and other rules supplements introduced classes that would be quite appropriate for rebuilding certain NPCs. Bokken, for example, would be appropriate as a low-level alchemist. Witch would be appropriate for the Old Beldame (obviously), and I think it would be intriguing if Grigori were a vigilante. Drelev and Irovetti are both perfect candidates for swashbucklers, I think. And this doesn't even get into the goodies in the *Melee Tactics Toolbox*.

  • The Bestiaries have introduced any number of new fey. I think the Seilenos, Erlking, Wild Hunt fey, and hamadryad are all thematically appropriate. Not to mention the other members of the Tane (the Jubjub Bird and the Bandersnatch) that have been introduced.

  • The Influence rules from *Ultimate Intrigue* are well-suited to diplomatic relationships with the neighbors. They can be used to measure relations with Brevoy's Great Houses as well as provide structure to relations with the Nomen Centuars, Fort Drelev, and even Restov itself.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I've been quietly working on a sequel to Kingmaker. Kingmaker 2: The March of Progress, using what I've learned from running/modding Kingmaker the first time around.

There's a part of me that's tempted to file off the serial numbers in order to make it publishable. But it's still early days yet so I've not made a decision regarding that yet.

DM Dudemeister, your stuff is amazing. I have used so many of your ideas, some directly, and some for inspiration, in my second running of KM.

Thank you for all your contributions.
Regarding your ideas for a continuation to KM, couldn't you publish it the same way Legendary Games does? Their "plug ins" are made for APs indirectly, and they just had a successful Kickstarter for their Forest Kingdom hardcover.
I'd love to see you get paid for your amazing ideas.


Pennywit - "Ultimate Campaign updated the kingdom-building rules, and the Downtime/Capital rules with a little tweaking can represent the PCs' personal power and political capital within their kingdom."

I tried that as my game revolves quite heavily around personal holdings and investments. The Downtime-Capital rules don't work well with the Kingdom Building rules at all, and I had to rework them both quite hard to make them compatible. In the end, I dumped the downtime rules altogether and reworked the Kingdom Building rules to incorporate Investment and Business elements. It is quite a big rework.

They aren't properly polished or play tested yet, but (if anyone is interested) my Campaign 'House Rules' can be found here

http://rp.baileymail.net/doku.php?id=pathfinder:campaign_systems:start

Be warned though - there is a load of stuff there and some of the boundaries where the various rule sets meet need refining. (and wording / structure needs some polish)


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Been working on a massive overhaul of the Kingdom Building rules, and thought I might post my notes here in case anyone else might be interested in it. As soon as I've actually finished it, I'll post a link to a pdf or something in a thread of its own, but since I'm also massively overhauling the campaign itself, that might take me the rest of the year or longer.

Notes

  • I am using a base 100 currency system, so 10,000 cp = 100 sp = 1 gp, so that the new silver piece replaces the gold piece from the standard currency system. Among other considerations, this allows the new gold piece to be the standard unit of taxation in my new system, since 100 people earning 10 cp/day for 30 days works out to 3 gp, one third of which is 1 gp.
  • Also, I am using the automatic bonus progression and scaling item systems from Unchained, so magic items will be a little more important and assumed to stay around from book to book, as any magical item found it book 1 will still be useful and difficult to replace even in book 6.

Major changes

  • 12-mile hexes replaced by 2-mile hexes, in a configuration which results in 36 ‘new’ hexes for every 1 ‘old’ hex. This allows more accurate mapping of current party location, since even forested mountain hexes can be traversed in a single day on foot, but also allows for more static locations, more localized terrain (such as the swamp that the Old Beldame lives in), and a faster-paced approach to the Pursuit rules from Ultimate Intrigue. It also makes exploration and travel the same thing, since physically traversing a hex allows it to be counted as ‘explored’, discovers any ‘automatic’ features, and allows discovery of ‘hidden’ features. The party can always ‘see’ adjacent hexes, including any major landmarks (ie, things you could see from 2 miles away, like a massive lone tree atop a hill or a tall tower), and can ‘see’ two hexes away across open terrain (plains, water, or if the distant terrain is at a higher elevation than the adjacent terrain, such as mountains on the other side of a hills hex).
  • Each hex will have a population of 100 people when settled unless it contains a town or city, with towns consisting of a single 36-acre city district but being able to coexist with a regular hex improvement such as a farm, and cities consisting of up to 56 city districts. (2/6/8/8/8/8/8/6/2 hex configuration, allows adjacent city hexes to merge seamlessly and generally follow the overall shape of the underlying terrain)
  • A new mechanic for Rank has been added, with a default of Knight (1) -> Baron/Baroness (2) -> Duke/Duchess (3) -> King/Queen (4). Rank is determined solely by vassals sworn to you, requiring a pyramid shape and that rank 4 nobles not be anyone’s vassal. (ie, if you have two knights as vassals, you are now a baron/baroness, otherwise you are the same rank as your highest ranked vassal) Rank affects what sort of events you will get each month, how many court positions need to be filled in order to not take penalties, and gives a bonus on various checks, as well as determining certain upkeep costs.
  • Control DC is now equal to the total hexes under your control, plus the number of city districts, plus the number of direct vassals sworn to you, and to make the control check, you simply roll a 1d20 + your leadership score, with each member of the court (General, Magister, etc) able to make the same roll against a DC 15 to give a +2 bonus on the control check.
  • Above two mechanics give an incentive to develop a feudal system of rule, whereby vassals are expected to pass a certain amount of income up to their liege, but are otherwise free to administer the lands granted to them as they see fit. This has two important effects: firstly, it allows each character to be a lord in their own right, such that the party might eventually consist of (for example) a queen, duchess, and two dukes, whilst still maintaining a single cohesive kingdom. Secondly, it allows the party to focus their attentions on whichever aspect of kingdom management they want, handing off responsibility for tasks they are not interested in to vassals who can simply be abstracted by the GM. (ie, Baron George provides X in taxes/tribute each month, and isn’t really an issue unless an event makes him an issue, so the GM doesn’t even have to figure out how exactly George is administering his lands, since the party only cares that he remains loyal to the crown, pays his taxes, and lets them know if orcs invade or something.)
  • BP mechanic is now split into 3 separate values: BP, GP, and food. BP are generated by quarries and logging camps, and either give a discount on any buildings built that month, or can be saved up in a storehouse for use in future months. Food is now required to meet the Kingdom’s consumption, with specific costs and/or penalties for failing to generate enough food each month to keep everyone fed. GP is generated primarily by population, with more generated by some hex improvements and buildings, and is used to pay soldiers, to pay for the completion of ‘public’ buildings, to promote the construction of private buildings (ie, encouraging people to move to your kingdom by offering to pay x% of the cost of building a new inn for them to run) and to pay the living expenses of the ruler and members of the council.
  • Several improvements require soldiers in order to get the benefit, with 1 gp paying for 10 soldiers per month (30 cp * 30 days = 9 sp, with a squad leader earning twice as much). This price assumes peacetime employment, and treats soldiers, town guards, and other such positions as effectively interchangeable.
  • Rulers have monthly upkeep costs which increases their kingdom’s consumption by their current rank (ie, a duke ‘consumes’ 3 additional food each month), as well as a typical standard of living cost, which must also be paid towards their council. While party members are certainly free to refuse this stipend and pay out of pocket for their living expenses, NPC council members will expect an amount equal to twice the standard cost of living for a nobleman one rank below the ruler, unless the ruler is a knight, in which case they expect to be paid a stipend equal to the cost of living for a knight. Paying more than this amount will often foment unrest among the citizenry, whereas paying less will invite disloyalty from council members, who might slack in their duties or even turn traitor!
  • Hex improvements like roads and aqueducts are now an improvement to a hex boundary. (ie, a road exists connecting hex A to hex B, rather than all of hex A having ‘roads’)
  • The Farm improvement now generates a default of 2 food, similar to how it normally functions, thus providing 1 excess food after feeding its own hex, but this amount can be increased, allowing larger amounts of food to be generated in order to feed large cities, using a mechanic whereby a Farm that has access to fresh water (via river/lake/canal/aqueduct) and is connected by a road to a Mill in a town/city no more than 2 hexes away will produce 3 food per month.
  • The Fishery improvement is now a town building rather than a hex improvement, and allows the collection of 1 food for every 2 ‘exclusive’ water hexes within 2 hexes of the hex the Fishery is located in. (exclusive meaning that no other Fishery is benefiting from that hex)
  • Towns/cities are now more focused on providing services to the inhabitants, with private buildings chosen by the people attracted to the city via promotion edicts. (ie, when you first attract 100 people to your new settlement, they might choose to use the funds to build either an inn, or a general store, or something else, but the Ruler won’t typically have any say unless they take a penalty on their promotion edict, which typically means either spending more or accepting a risk of failing to attract settlers.) Instead of focusing on building shops and such, the focus is instead on attracting settlers and then keeping them happy by building Shrines and Temples dedicated to their preferred deities, Walls and Watchtowers to keep them safe from marauding armies, or Cisterns and Granaries to ensure the stability and health of the settlement. Some buildings, like an Academy or Bardic College, will instead unlock events for the kingdom and allow settlers to choose to construct buildings that give bonuses, such as Exotic Artisans and Theaters.
  • Events are now focused heavily on party interaction. Even events that ‘simply happen’, like a natural disaster, still give suggestions for how they might be interacted with and resolved. (Perhaps the High Priest could deal with a flood event by researching a ritual that would appease Hanspur, whereas a General might mobilize the kingdom’s soldiers to erect sandbag barriers, and a Councilor might be more focused on how to prevent future floods by constructing dams and levees along the river.) Some events will be easily dealt with by a single member of the council, such as the Marshall conducting a pursuit (Ultimate Intrigue) to track a group of bandits back to their hideout so that the kingdom’s soldiers can prevent the event from becoming a recurring issue that plagues the kingdom for months on end. Other issues will require several members working together, or may even represent a small side adventure that the party needs to go deal with, such as a wyvern preying on livestock. All events will have at least two suggested methods of resolving the event, as well as likely results in case of success/failure. (Yes, the party could simply ride out and deal with undead spewing forth from an ancient tomb on their own and be virtually assured of success, but sending their troops to deal with the problem can have far more beneficial effects if they succeed, since that sort of choice will generate veteran troops and reassure the citizens of the kingdom that the troops can handle problems when the party is all off adventuring in the mountains.)


I think I'd need a very programmed excel sheet or custom app to track that.


kadance wrote:
I think I'd need a very programmed excel sheet or custom app to track that.

The idea was to take advantage of the fact that you already need a spreadsheet to track kingdom building rules, so you might as well go all the way. I'm not fixing that problem, since spreadsheets are something I'm naturally good at. All my efforts were focused on fixing issues with: runaway control scores, lack of balance for city-building, and events that lack interactivity.

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