My problem with 4th edition forgotten realms isn't that they got rid of NPCs and gods. It's that they assumed we were all f#$!ing idiots and wouldn't want to know what happened to the NPCs and gods that died. "Who cares how Bruenor died, that was a hundred years ago!" "Malar? Oh he's gone, but we won't tell you where, or how, or why".
And don't get me started on the whole "but they were two worlds and now they're one b$~@*!+!".
And the maps!! My god, the maps were terrible!! I could draw the forgotten realms on a paper bag with finger paints and a pen and get the same s!%$ty maps.
So no, it was more than "omg! They killed Khelben!"
considering we still have elminster and drizzt, tymora and mystra and bane and just about everyone else, they didn't kill enough.
It doesn't matter, according to 5th edition, it never happened. :-)
Or whatever they decided to call it, I won't touch Forgotten Realms anymore.
Nor do I care if other people do, I just wanted to state why I left Forgotten Realms. :-)
Edit: if someone asked if I wanted to play a game set in FR I wouldn't say no, but that's true of any setting.
It doesn't matter, according to 5th edition, it never happened. :-)
Or whatever they decided to call it, I won't touch Forgotten Realms anymore.
Nor do I care if other people do, I just wanted to state why I left Forgotten Realms. :-)
Edit: if someone asked if I wanted to play a game set in FR I wouldn't say no, but that's true of any setting.
then you haven't really left, have you?
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My problem with 4th edition forgotten realms isn't that they got rid of NPCs and gods. It's that they assumed we were all f***ing idiots and wouldn't want to know what happened to the NPCs and gods that died. "Who cares how Bruenor died, that was a hundred years ago!" "Malar? Oh he's gone, but we won't tell you where, or how, or why".
And don't get me started on the whole "but they were two worlds and now they're one b!*%@~%&".
And the maps!! My god, the maps were terrible!! I could draw the forgotten realms on a paper bag with finger paints and a pen and get the same s!*+ty maps.
So no, it was more than "omg! They killed Khelben!"
I haven't read the FR lore, so I don't want to excuse the poor writing if that's what it is, but the way you framed it here makes it look like investigating these deaths could be a fun adventure hook for the group that really wants to know.
I haven't read a book in almost ten years (nor do I own any besides my Grey box books and maps and my Atlas Of The Forgotten Realms by Karen Wynn Fonstad which I keep for sentimental reasons) just the occasional marketing blurb on Amazon, and no one else I know uses forgotten realms so yeah, pretty sure it's in the rearview mirror. :-)
It doesn't matter, according to 5th edition, it never happened.
They explained it all in the SCAG
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I found SCAG really repetitive. Lots of dwarven strongholds with THE BIGGEST ROCK EVER. I mean, they can't all be the biggest rock ever, right? Unless all big dwarven rocks have the same big dimensions, which is even more repetitive.
I really like SCAG. Since I kinda flaked out on our Princes of the Apocalypse campaign, when SCAG came out I was like nope. But just the other day, after starting this thread, I borrowed a copy and read it. I want to get my own copy of SCAG now… I actually think it's really nice♥
But we're committed to our Zakhara-based campaign for now… even though I can see an excursion to Chult in the future♥
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For that reason alone I think I liked Cyric, an interesting character really beginning as someone who was not that bad a person just made some bad choices to a complete nut. He went from three to two dimensional unfortunately as time went on.
Yeah, in the first book or two Cyric was a much nicer person than Kelemvore, and then, bam, suddenly he's a ranting nut-job and Kelemvore is supposed to be this nice guy (even though he never actually acts like it, it's just said about him). It was complete whiplash characterization, like someone stepped in on an editorial level and told the author, 'Oh, by the way, this guy's going to be a crazy evil villain...'
Cyric the mad-villain-god was really bad, by comparison, as well as being the poster-child for 'too stupid to live.'
And poor Adon. The only member of the party to not become a god. The only thing his character arc did was make me dislike Sune. :)
Also made me dislike Gond.
For that reason alone I think I liked Cyric, an interesting character really beginning as someone who was not that bad a person just made some bad choices to a complete nut. He went from three to two dimensional unfortunately as time went on.Yeah, in the first book or two Cyric was a much nicer person than Kelemvore, and then, bam, suddenly he's a ranting nut-job and Kelemvore is supposed to be this nice guy (even though he never actually acts like it, it's just said about him). It was complete whiplash characterization, like someone stepped in on an editorial level and told the author, 'Oh, by the way, this guy's going to be a crazy evil villain...'
Cyric the mad-villain-god was really bad, by comparison, as well as being the poster-child for 'too stupid to live.'
And poor Adon. The only member of the party to not become a god. The only thing his character arc did was make me dislike Sune. :)
THe fact that there were several authors didn't helped.
My problem with 4th edition forgotten realms isn't that they got rid of NPCs and gods. It's that they assumed we were all f@*&ing idiots and wouldn't want to know what happened to the NPCs and gods that died. "Who cares how Bruenor died, that was a hundred years ago!" "Malar? Oh he's gone, but we won't tell you where, or how, or why".
Do you mean like Starfinder's "Gap"?
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No, that's thousands of years.
And a sci-fi setting, so completely different.
And that's not really a discussion for here. :-)
Edit: And you're missing the larger point, which was the maps! They're so bad!
Yeah, in the first book or two Cyric was a much nicer person than Kelemvore, and then, bam, suddenly he's a ranting nut-job and Kelemvore is supposed to be this nice guy (even though he never actually acts like it, it's just said about him). It was complete whiplash characterization, like someone stepped in on an editorial level and told the author, 'Oh, by the way, this guy's going to be a crazy evil villain...'
I blame it on TSR attitude at the time. Being a fan looking in it just matches their standard procedure at the time imo. Borrow as much as possible from Tolkien. Elves going to Evermeet. Dwarves a race on the decline. Evil no matter how smart an competent must be shown as the complete reverse. If I'm not mistaken did not Bane decide "hmm I'm bored maybe the divine and arcane elements of my worshippers should be each other throats". The Cult of the Dragon " There is a very powerful Spellfire wielder who keeps destroying and defeating our minions we should keep sending more and more".
The Avatar novels had such potential only to be ruined imo because after all evil has to be show as dumber than a bag full of hammers and completely incompetent. Which is why Cyric ended up being portrayed so badly in that series and later novels.
Cyric the mad-villain-god was really bad, by comparison, as well as being the poster-child for 'too stupid to live.'
I blame editorial mandate on Cyric being dumb and incomptent Cyric To the point of being ruined imo and written poorly.
And poor Adon. The only member of the party to not become a god. The only thing his character arc did was make me dislike Sune. :)
Sune as written in the series really comes off as poorly written. So much so that I would never ever make a cleric and use her as a god no matter what edition of D&D I'm playing
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The sad part is all the issues that players had or have FR were addressed with 4E FR. Wotc found out those who had issues with the setting liked and still like complaining about them. Yet at the same time DON"T want anything down with the stuff they complain about. It's a Catch-22. Too many high level npcs. We will get rid of some. "how dare you get rid of those high level npcs. " Too many redundant gods "how dare you get rid of those gods". Too much of the world is explored, too many cities. Not enough to explore. " How dare you get rid of all those cities". It's a Catch-22 imo. It's one of those setting players hate and have issues with they also don't want nothing changed./QUOTE]
There's no Catch-22. You're talking about two different groups of people, one group who liked what the old Realms had to offer and one who didn't.
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Evil no matter how smart an competent must be shown as the complete reverse.
Oh yes, those whacky Zhentarim. They *always* lose. Their keep blew up. Then got overrun by dragons. Then caught on fire. I think their god destroyed it, one time. Everywhere they went, it was like epic calamities rained down upon them, *and they weren't even caused by the good guys*, it was just like the universe decided that every day was 'crap on the Zhents' day.
And yeah, also the Cult of the Dragon. 'We spend years creating these amazing dracoliches, to whom we have to give *scads* of treasure to get on the program, and then we send them after this chick who has nothing to do with any of our goals, and she blows them out of the sky, sometimes three in a single day! Where, oh where, did we go wrong?'
Sune as written in the series really comes off as poorly written. So much so that I would never ever make a cleric and use her as a god no matter what edition of D&D I'm playing
Eh, every god gets one of those eventually. With Sune it was kicking Adon to the curb for getting a rocking facial scar. Iomedae has that thing in Wrath of the Righteous which I didn't read, but hear was controversial. Torag may or may not be into genocide, depending on how you interpret his faith. Erastil is or is not a fan of people (of both genders) settling down and raising families and have stable homes and marriages, or a rampaging misogynist, depending on which eye you squint when reading his tenets. Pharasma may or may not feed atheists to Groetus, and even if she does, they were totally asking for it, did you see the way they were dressed? Hippy peacenik stoner Desna once fluttered her pretty butterfly self down into the Abyss and ripped a demon lord's face off in the seat of it's power, and that's actually the coolest thing ever and doesn't belong on this list. :)
On the upside, Sune was Chaotic Good and had an order of Paladins, so that was cool. :)
'Rules, shmools. Quibble me not with thy mortal rules, which are for thee, and not for moi.'
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For a moment I was worried when you mentioned Desna :D
This said, we weren't so much into the novel stuff and basically ignored the Avatar saga. So in our games the Zhentarim were still big badass villains and even to casually mention them was enough to send shivers of concern down our spines.
Though I can't say the same for the Cult of Dragons. I don't think that we ever used them in our games.
I blame it on TSR attitude at the time. Being a fan looking in it just matches their standard procedure at the time imo. Borrow as much as possible from Tolkien. Elves going to Evermeet. Dwarves a race on the decline. Evil no matter how smart an competent must be shown as the complete reverse.
Yeah, in the first book or two Cyric was a much nicer person than Kelemvore, and then, bam, suddenly he's a ranting nut-job and Kelemvore is supposed to be this nice guy (even though he never actually acts like it, it's just said about him). It was complete whiplash characterization, like someone stepped in on an editorial level and told the author, 'Oh, by the way, this guy's going to be a crazy evil villain...'
I do indeed understand that tsr followed the old comic book code, which resulted in a lot of nonsense with respect to the characterization of evil in the books and such.
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Evil no matter how smart an competent must be shown as the complete reverse.Oh yes, those whacky Zhentarim. They *always* lose. Their keep blew up. Then got overrun by dragons. Then caught on fire. I think their god destroyed it, one time. Everywhere they went, it was like epic calamities rained down upon them, *and they weren't even caused by the good guys*, it was just like the universe decided that every day was 'crap on the Zhents' day.
And yeah, also the Cult of the Dragon. 'We spend years creating these amazing dracoliches, to whom we have to give *scads* of treasure to get on the program, and then we send them after this chick who has nothing to do with any of our goals, and she blows them out of the sky, sometimes three in a single day! Where, oh where, did we go wrong?'
this is why I love Paul s Kemp and Richard Lee Byers. They are far more realistic with their evil characters and downfall.
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The half man half golem guy in Rage of Dragons wasn't very realistic.
Just saying.
Something that I would have liked are more novels at the "low-levels". I think that even before 4E they were screwing it with all those "the world is going to end by this high level event!" series. One have to wonder how somebody can harvest wheat without being pulverized by a shade archmage or something.
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Maybe you guys would like FR more if you hadn't read the novels?
Maybe you guys would like FR more if you hadn't read the novels?
I read many of the novels and still love FR.
To each his own I say!
I do echo the sentiment above, my PCs did not take messing with the Zhents lightly.
Looking forward to my table top campaign where my PCs will BE the Zhents! Running it here on PbP too to get a feel for the low level acgtion before I kick the table top into high gear ;-)
Maybe you guys would like FR more if you hadn't read the novels?
For my part, unlikely. There are plenty of good FR novels and stories. I just wish that they had not introduced so many changes and world-wide catastrophic events via novel (or otherwise)s. Because in the FR is a setting for DM to place their games, let those things to the DM.
Azure Bonds is pretty low level. The wizard eventually has 3rd level spells like fly and fireball.
Azure Bonds is pretty low level. The wizard eventually has 3rd level spells like fly and fireball.
The Module was a bit railroady but I was able to make some changes to it and really make it a lot of fun for my PCs.
Really enjoyed the novels as well.
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G+$~*$n iguana Paladins.
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The half man half golem guy in Rage of Dragons wasn't very realistic.
Just saying.
What was that?
Also made me dislike Gond.
The series really ruined Gond I think for many. I get the wanted to have a god that was Neutral yet he came off as Lawful Stupid imo. "Mystra these unseemly outburst of emotion need to stop. Remember your no longer human but a Goddess" The wrote him like he had a stick up his behind.
There's no Catch-22. You're talking about two different groups of people, one group who liked what the old Realms had to offer and one who didn't.
There very much is a Catch-22. Whatever they did they could not please either group. Leave it as is and people would say it's a rehash and a money grab. Change too much and it's too different and it's a money grab.
The half man half golem guy in Rage of Dragons wasn't very realistic.
Just saying.
To me it's par for the course for FR imo. If Beholders don't bother gamers (essentially a floating laser platform with multiple lasers). I don't see why a half-golem/half-human would cause anyone to blink imo.
Evil no matterthis is why I love Paul s Kemp and Richard Lee Byers. They are far more realistic with their evil characters and downfall.
I'm just glad they began writing after Wotc decided to drop their version of the comics code. Otherwise both would have been probably hampered in their writing.
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My issue with FR is that it seems overrun with NPCs with improbably high levels (like 30th) and insanely powerful templates, so that the PCs can really never have any importance in the setting. A four-person party of even 20th level PCs saying "I want to change the world!" doesn't work when there are 1,000 level 30 NPCs protecting the status quo.
In that regard, the setting seems specifically intended to force players to accept DM overlordship and massive amounts of railroading, because they can never be of any real importance. Even at the pinnacle of their power (20th level), they're still hapless peons compared to just about everyone else. (For comparison, the 3.5 version of Elminster, at 35th level plus a +5 CR template = CR 40, is literally over a thousand times more powerful than any 20th level PC, according to the CR system of that edition). (In 1st edition, he was "merely" 26th level, but was effectively omnipotent due to the DM fiat baked into that rule set.)
If you removed ALL of the named NPCs, and divided the listed level of everyone else by 10 (e.g., 10th level mook guards become 1st), FR would be a lot more to my liking.
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In that regard, the setting seems specifically intended to force players to accept DM overlordship and massive amounts of railroading, because they can never be of any real importance.
Won't go into any numbers game with you regarding the number of high-level NPCs in the Realms, but as far as the importance thing goes, I never had this problem due to a combination of the way I use official settings and the kind of adventures I prefer to run.
Basically, the term "real importance" is a very relative thing. To the people that profit from your actions when you were still at level 1, you might be much more important than Elminster ever will be. And as far as the world goes, I'm not quite sure what you mean with "change the world", but if it is something that Elminster, Khelben or the Simbul might disagree with, I'll probably disagree with it even more and you can bet that I won't hide behind any NSC when stopping you doing such things. or in other words, Elminster will only disagree if I do. But again, I'm not quite sure what you would want to do when changing the world, because I think that you could actually get away with a lot of stuff without Elminster (aka me) interfering. And with level 20, they very much belong to the movers and shakers of the Realms already.
In the end, I basically never saw much of a difference to what Paizo is doing with Golarion regarding that point. Because if I want to, I already can free Cheliax from the Thrune family, only that this won't change the official history in future Paizo products. And from the very start, I could do the same in the Realms. And I wouldn't let me stop just by the existence of a few NPCs that mainly existed in the novel line and for marketing reasons.
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My issue with FR is that it seems overrun with NPCs with improbably high levels (like 30th) and insanely powerful templates, so that the PCs can really never have any importance in the setting. A four-person party of even 20th level PCs saying "I want to change the world!" doesn't work when there are 1,000 level 30 NPCs protecting the status quo.
In that regard, the setting seems specifically intended to force players to accept DM overlordship and massive amounts of railroading, because they can never be of any real importance. Even at the pinnacle of their power (20th level), they're still hapless peons compared to just about everyone else. (For comparison, the 3.5 version of Elminster, at 35th level plus a +5 CR template = CR 40, is literally over a thousand times more powerful than any 20th level PC, according to the CR system of that edition). (In 1st edition, he was "merely" 26th level, but was effectively omnipotent due to the DM fiat baked into that rule set.)
If you removed ALL of the named NPCs, and divided the listed level of everyone else by 10 (e.g., 10th level mook guards become 1st), FR would be a lot more to my liking.
I think that problem disappears when a DM who is not concerned with these matters is managing the Realms. The same could certainly be said of the Dragonlance setting as it so tied to the stories of the novels. Ravenloft has nigh unbeatable Lords. Dark Sun nigh unbeatable Dragon Kings. Greyhawk had the Mord and the Circle of 8. Etc. etc.
It's more about the DM than the setting IMHO. And this is coming from a DM who has DM'ed extensively in the setting for the last 15 years.
A FR fanboy DM one may have a problem with I suppose.
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Forgotten Realms suffered from time creep. In first edition their weren't a lot of super high level people. But then they went to second edition and had to age everyone five years and consequently leveled everyone up, and then repeated it for 3rd edition.
While it certainly had more than it's fair share it wasn't nearly a thousand.
At least they weren't given the boot at 18th level like in Dragonlance. :-)
"But, I was two levels away from retiring!!"
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Forgotten Realms suffered from time creep. In first edition their weren't a lot of super high level people. But then they went to second edition and had to age everyone five years and consequently leveled everyone up, and then repeated it for 3rd edition.
While it certainly had more than it's fair share it wasn't nearly a thousand.
At least they weren't given the boot at 18th level like in Dragonlance. :-)
"But, I was two levels away from retiring!!"
Good point, the longer the setting is out there the more NPCs it is gong to have. Especially when you decide to drop a Realms Shaking Event via novel into the setting every 3 years...
Heh, I remember that get the boot at 18th level rule for DL!
In the end I think in the realms it's easy to just take the good and leave the bad.
A lot of the bad that has been brought up in this thread, I was unaware of :/
So not sure. I've read two novels (Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils) and I liked both.
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If you removed ALL of the named NPCs, and divided the listed level of everyone else by 10 (e.g., 10th level mook guards become 1st), FR would be a lot more to my liking.
I ran a Realms game for years (until the Time of Troubles, actually, when the game advanced to second edition, and everyone but our cleric of Lleira got a hawt new specialty priest), and the 'Sage of Shadowdale' was an 8th level Wizard, specializing in Divination. (Which wasn't even my idea, I think I read it online, somewhere, on a BBS, which was the hot new thing.)
He wasn't centuries old (although he sure looked it...), he didn't sleep with gods, he wasn't chosen of anything (there were no 'Chosen' of anything) and his faux-Asian manservant who was not named Wong, wasn't the long-lost princess of Tir-as-Lee, either.
He did have a crystal ball, and he was in contact with some other mid-level Harpers across the continent, so he was still a good source of information, if not the person you go to solve all your problems.
More quest-giver (and occasional riddle-de-stumper), less deus ex machina.
It's not even a FR specific thing. Play in the DC universe, and it's a question of 'If this is a big deal, why not just call the Green Lantern Corps? Or the Flash? He could round all these guys up before I hear the dial tone after he hangs up on me... And there's the guy in Metropolis, with the cape...' And the answer is, 'Because you're the hero today. Either they aren't around, or they can't do what their reporter girlfriend says they can. Either way, it's on you.'
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But that… kinda is why I don't like playing in the DC universe. At least not as heroes.
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But that… kinda is why I don't like playing in the DC universe. At least not as heroes.
Eh, play in Europe, where nobody but the Global Guardians ever goes.
Or Australia. I think their only local hero is, uh, Tasmanian Devil?
Or the 31st century, where your competition for heroing is the Legion of Super-Heroes, which has no Green Lanterns, no Flashes, and, currently, no Kryptonians!
Or one of the many cool worlds of the multiverse, like the one where the Justice League is evil, and the underground resistance is led by good versions of (mostly non-powered villains like) the Joker, Captain Cold, Deathstroke, etc. :)
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Or just have things happening in the Realms while those other people are off doing other important things! There's no shortage of such things, and the more power one has, the more stuff is heaped upon their plate to take care of.
Honestly, I ran games in the Realms for almost 20 years and never really ran into a problem. Being who I was, I also introduced many of these high level NPCs into my games at various points, but never as elements to take over for the PCs. Often, I created story elements that none but the PCs could deal with, or that were subversive or clandestine enough that the PCs had to deal with it before getting higher-powered elements involved. I was also nick-named the "god killer" because as DM I loved dispatching gods that I didn't like. The BBEG of my second primary Realms campaign was one of the Dark Powers of Ravenloft! So I mixed-and-matched too!
The limitations of high-powered NPCs lay entirely within the confines of a DM's brain. If they can't move past it, then it will consistently be a problem. Otherwise, a bit of creativity and a whole lot of rational thinking will allow anything to be possible in the Forgotten Realms setting.
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My issue with FR is that it seems overrun with NPCs with improbably high levels (like 30th) and insanely powerful templates, so that the PCs can really never have any importance in the setting. A four-person party of even 20th level PCs saying "I want to change the world!" doesn't work when there are 1,000 level 30 NPCs protecting the status quo.
Well, there it is.
Next time I run a FR game, there's going to be a cataclysmic event. Planetary on scale.
I'll run an adventure leading up to the adventures Semi-succeeding (capture the bad guys but don't stop the event), from which a massive bomb akin to a EMP will spread across and through the world, instantly killing every intelligent creature of 5th level or higher.
Then we'll start a new campaign in the surviving world.
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The limitations of high-powered NPCs lay entirely within the confines of a DM's brain. If they can't move past it, then it will consistently be a problem. Otherwise, a bit of creativity and a whole lot of rational thinking will allow anything to be possible in the Forgotten Realms setting.
And yet, what you've described is you (successfully) fighting against the setting.
Ever watch the TV show Heroes? In it, every single season, you get a front-seat to a bunch of writers who are manifestly incapable of writing a dramatic show dealing with characters with the super-powers they've chosen to give them. In every season, there needs to be an 'excuse' built in as to why the characters Hiro or Peter don't solve every problem with a snap of their fingers. One's lost his powers. The other's trapped in an alternate dimension/timeline. One's sworn an oath to never use his powers that way again. Now there's an eclipse and *everyone* has lost their powers. Powers are back, but one's powers work differently! The valuable lesson here seemed to be, don't write in elements that you not only don't want to use, but are going to interfere with your dramatic storytelling in the future and need to be written out or explained away or sent to the cornfield with every crisis.
A Realms game in which everything is going so terribly wrong on a planetary scale that the seven Chosen, Elminster, etc. are all super-busy putting out fires is one that nobody should want to live in, since more people are dying and more countries are changing maps daily than the average season of Game of Thrones. It would be like playing golf in a minefield. These guys have more personal power than the demigods of settings like Greyhawk.
Ever watch the TV show Heroes? In it, every single season, you get a front-seat to a bunch of writers who are manifestly incapable of writing a dramatic show dealing with characters with the super-powers they've chosen to give them. In every season, there needs to be an 'excuse' built in as to why the characters Hiro or Peter don't solve every problem with a snap of their fingers. One's lost his powers. The other's trapped in an alternate dimension/timeline. One's sworn an oath to never use his powers that way again. Now there's an eclipse and *everyone* has lost their powers. Powers are back, but one's powers work differently! The valuable lesson here seemed to be, don't write in elements that you not only don't want to use, but are going to interfere with your dramatic storytelling in the future and need to be written out or explained away or sent to the cornfield with every crisis.
Hiro controlled time and space, he couldn't really work as a "fair" character once he mastered his powers.
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My issue with FR is that it seems overrun with NPCs with improbably high levels (like 30th) and insanely powerful templates, so that the PCs can really never have any importance in the setting. A four-person party of even 20th level PCs saying "I want to change the world!" doesn't work when there are 1,000 level 30 NPCs protecting the status quo.Well, there it is.
Next time I run a FR game, there's going to be a cataclysmic event. Planetary on scale.
I'll run an adventure leading up to the adventures Semi-succeeding (capture the bad guys but don't stop the event), from which a massive bomb akin to a EMP will spread across and through the world, instantly killing every intelligent creature of 5th level or higher.
Then we'll start a new campaign in the surviving world.
please, let me know when you get to elminster.
I want to know how he and his entire dmpc clique die.
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please, let me know when you get to elminster.
I want to know how he and his entire dmpc clique die.
Easy enough. Mystra chokes to death on a chicken bone (while eating ham, how bizarre!) and Elminster has to ascend to take the reins of being the new god of magic, Elmyster. (We've lost, like, three Mystra's, in the last couple centuries, so whoever the elven god of magic is probably just shrugs and pushes a bead on a string to commemorate the occasion and shouts, 'Next!')
The seven sisters ascend with him and become his demigod servants / heralds, each representing some form of magic (Storm covers bards, the Simbul sorcery, etc.).
Boom. All gone from the setting, other than as names of gods that never appear *in* the setting.
Additionally, the massive disruption to magic across the Realms results in every spellcaster losing half of their caster levels, as the magic is sucked away to empower the new god of magic, so all those 24th level archwizard/shade/whatever people become 12th level, and *still* quite powerful, but no longer quite so Epic.
Shandril Shessair ascends to become the demigoddess of Spellfire. But since she's the only one, she turns out to have zero worshippers, and so she vanishes in a puff of logic. Narm recovers from being her epic doormat / hapless damsel and finds someone his own level to date.
Meanwhile, in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, etc. (all the parts of the Realms that have no idea who Elminster or Mystra are), life goes on.
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And yet, what you've described is you (successfully) fighting against the setting.
Not necessarily. First off it's simply not true, that there is an Elminster-like figure waiting around any faerunian corner. There are actually only a few, and Faerun is a big continent, so they simlpy can't be everywhere at the same time. And most of the other high-level chars are actually villains aka the guys and gals the world needs saving from
Second, we know (mainly from the novel line) what at least some of them are up to at a given time. 1372 DR being a good example. Elminster imprisoned in Hell, the Simbul out there looking for him -> two of the big guns already out of the picture. The Blackstaff is probbly busy dealing with the Shade thread at that time, and so on.
And third, they all have their own agendas and dedicate a lot of their time to those. Not everything has to be about putting out fires, they aren't the Justice League of the Realms. And depending on what we talk about, might not even care about certain developments out of their direct jurisdiction.
Which results in enough space to have your own adventures without those big guns interfering. My experiences with the Realms are very similar to Sub-Creator's, and I had never the feeling that I had to fight anything to make the setting my own any more than I have to fight to achieve the same with Golarion. Less, actually, but that's probably due to personal preferences.
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please, let me know when you get to elminster.
I want to know how he and his entire dmpc clique die.Easy enough. Mystra chokes to death on a chicken bone (while eating ham, how bizarre!) and Elminster has to ascend to take the reins of being the new god of magic, Elmyster. (We've lost, like, three Mystra's, in the last couple centuries, so whoever the elven god of magic is probably just shrugs and pushes a bead on a string to commemorate the occasion and shouts, 'Next!')
The seven sisters ascend with him and become his demigod servants / heralds, each representing some form of magic (Storm covers bards, the Simbul sorcery, etc.).
Boom. All gone from the setting, other than as names of gods that never appear *in* the setting.
Additionally, the massive disruption to magic across the Realms results in every spellcaster losing half of their caster levels, as the magic is sucked away to empower the new god of magic, so all those 24th level archwizard/shade/whatever people become 12th level, and *still* quite powerful, but no longer quite so Epic.
Shandril Shessair ascends to become the demigoddess of Spellfire. But since she's the only one, she turns out to have zero worshippers, and so she vanishes in a puff of logic. Narm recovers from being her epic doormat / hapless damsel and finds someone his own level to date.
Meanwhile, in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, etc. (all the parts of the Realms that have no idea who Elminster or Mystra are), life goes on.
no, I want them dead, not worshippable. The fanboys will simply switch out their wizard elminster wannabes for clerics.
I liked Forgotten Realms in 2nd edition and 3.0/3.5 even though I cannot stand most of the Realms' heroes (Elm, Drizzie, etc.). Those were work arounds, but when Wizard decided to nuke the entire setting for 4E, that's really when I stopped supporting the Realms. I was VERY disappointed with what they did. Especially when they had JUST brought back Cormanthyr from its ruined state as an actual elven empire and then BOOM!
no, I want them dead, not worshippable. The fanboys will simply switch out their wizard elminster wannabes for clerics.
Let me try-
Mystra dies (for such a foundational part of the Faerunian cosmology, the goddess of magic sure dies a lot)- only this time, the Weave goes into torqued-out convulsions from the nature of her demise- which resonate in the Shadow Weave, to clean up that ridiculous Shar-push we got in 3rd edition.
The more magical power you wield, the more the overtaxed Weave dumps the excess energy from Mystra's dying surge of power into you, the more painful your spontaneous incineration becomes.
When the smoke clears, no spellcaster above 5th level remains, and the echoing convulsions of the Shadow Weave have also torn Shar down from the loftier heights of her power as she desperately unravels her own work to avoid dying like Mystra.
The Weave, amusingly, is just fine, since Mystra cooked off all those spellcasters to preserve it. Magic works- but everyone above a certain threshold is simply gone. Selune steps in as the new goddess of magic, co-equal in power to her diminished twin- who becomes a patron to those interested int he use of magic for selfish ends, and that's how the "balance" everyone likes to gibber about is maintained- not by making one deity play by rules they may not believe in, but by splitting it between two diametrically opposed beings.
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Selune steps in as the new goddess of magic, co-equal in power to her diminished twin- who becomes a patron to those interested int he use of magic for selfish ends, and that's how the "balance" everyone likes to gibber about is maintained- not by making one deity play by rules they may not believe in, but by splitting it between two diametrically opposed beings.
I like this, because it really gives Selune something to do. She's always felt kind of sidelined, in her own pantheon, and after seeing the wonder that is Desna (who occupies a similar niche), Selune kind of feels like a poor cousin by comparison.
Selune and Shar as oppositional goddesses of magic has a certain synergy to it, with Azuth sort of stuck in the middle. (Shades of Krynn's three lunar gods of magic, perhaps, but that's not a bad thing.)