| Wraithlin |
I'm building towards a Paladin Sword/Board in my current game which will include Mythic elements at higher levels. The plan is to go deep into two-weapon fighting so that the Paladin can maximize his use of smite, up-to an including a Legendary Item Shield that will be "weaponized".
This has created lots of rules analysis which I've summarized at the bottom of my post. However there are two rules questions where we are looking for primary sources specifically:
Can anyone point to a primary source that indicates the +10 cap for armour enchantments is separate to the +10 cap for weapon enchantments (i.e a shield can be +10/+10)?
Can anyone point to the same/similar for double-weapons (i.e. Each head can be +10 independently)
PRIOR ANALYSIS:
What I have found mostly consists of rules discussions on the Paizo boards, which generally conclude that:
• Shields are weapons and can be used/enchanted as such at no penalty relative to other weapons
o This includes the fact that they can be main-handed (if declared) and are eligible for relevant feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon expertise.
o Also a general agreement that when using Shield master you use the higher of either the Weapon Enhancement or the Shield Enhancement as your Attack Enhancement bonus when attacking (i.e. a +5/+1 shield would be a +5 weapon, NOT a +6 weapon).
• Double weapons appear to already allow for +10/+10 as each head is enchanted separately.
o RAW: “Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, and special abilities.”
o RAW: "you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material."
o RAW: "The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon."
o http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6xy?Double-Weapon-Enchantment
o http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kovt?Quarterstaff-weapon-enchantment
o https://www.epicpath.org/index.php?title=Magic_Item_Crafting_Rules&mobi leaction=toggle_view_mobile
• The Weapon Enchanting is separate from the Shield Enchanting for a shield, they don’t overlap and each has its own +10 cap analogous to double weapons.
o This point seems to come from reference to the 3.5 FAQs and there is an unwritten assumption that those rules clarifications carry-forward into Pathfinder unless they have been re-ruled or changed.
o RAW: “If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.” (emphasis mine).
o “it states that shields are enchanted separately for weapon and armor properties. Same as a double weapon pays separate costs for each end, not total for the same item with multiple properties.”
Discussion threads on enchanting shields as weapons:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9im?Can-a-shield-qualify-for-weapon-focus
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oup8?Shields-as-magic-WEAPONS
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2th8d?Magic-shield-enchanting-as-a-weapon
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r9v4?Enchanted-Shield-Enchanted-Shield-Spikes
Pathfinder FAQ
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9vdp
DnD 3.5 FAQ:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a
Note: I cant’ find anything on the +10/+10 can in this errata, and have a feeling this is something that was clarified in a Q&A separately.
Overall, the argument that two separate pools for enchanting are allows is based on:
• 3.5 Errata and historical understanding that seems to err on this side, based on rules discussions on the boards
• Interpretation of the “shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right” being analogous to double weapons and hence a separate “item” that can be full enchanted.
• Pricing/cost rules. Using a combined cap leads to pricing ambiguity, as a +1/+1 shield could arguably cost:
o 4k (2^2*1000 under armour enchanting rules)
o 8k (2^2*2000 under weapon enchanting rules)
o 3k (1^1*1000 + 1^1*2000 under mixed enchanting rules)
• The rules state “A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.”
o This wording implies that the price formula would be as per Example 3, and the +1/+1 shield costs 3k
o http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/armo rSpecialAbilities.html
• Double weapons already break the +10 cap by enchanting each end independently.
The arguments against are:
• Rules ambiguity: there is a lot of interpreting disparate sentences spread across the RAW, while its never fully clarified that this is how the rules work (nor that this is NOT how the rules work)
• Potential balance issues.
• Cost
A middle-ground would be to use the combined-items rules that allow for stacking abilities on single slot, at +50% cost. In that case the +1/+1 shield would cost 4k (1^1*1000+ 1^1*2000*1.5). This looks like it would be more clearly within the rules.
| KainPen |
I would say cost is not a valid argument, for against, because a +10/+10 shield is very costly little over 50% of level 19 character WBL for a 1 item. The problem cost is due to a shield master feat. It reduced the cost of a +10/+10 shield by 128K. Which is way over powered for a single feat.
Thankful has been FAQ and weakened a little bit, by saying it only remove penalty for the shield while two weapon fighting. while before some where arguing it removed all penalties on shield attacks. If shield master was broken into two feats it would be a lot more balanced. One dealing with the two weapon fighting penalties and another to deal with the Enhancement bonus.
| Pink Dragon |
For the question on shields:
Page 462 CRB:
Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
Page 468 CRB:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
The bolded part above is taken to mean that the armor enhancement bonuses and special abilities is separate from the weapon enhancement bonuses and special abilities.
Edit: The bolded part would suggest that the cost of enchanting a shield as armor is entirely separate from the cost of enchanting the shield as a weapon.
| Wraithlin |
The bolded part above is taken to mean that the armor enhancement bonuses and special abilities is separate from the weapon enhancement bonuses and special abilities.Edit: The bolded part would suggest that the cost of enchanting a shield as armor is entirely separate from the cost of enchanting the shield as a weapon.
This is about as far as I got with my previous effort - it seems there is nothing more explicit in determining whether the shield is capped at +10 (split across weapon/armour enchants) or +10/+10.
Is there an explicit FAQ/comment in the rules on double wepaons?
Again the only text I could find was under magic item creation where it says the cost for a double weapon is as if there were two distinct weapons. I couldn't find explicit confirmation that a double weapon has a cap of +10/+10.
| Ravingdork |
Pretty sure the limitation does not apply in this instance. +10/+10 shields and double weapons are allowed.
| Pink Dragon |
I am not aware of any further FAQs on either the shield enhancements or the double weapon enhancements.
However, I do not see the need for an FAQ because the CRB reasonably clearly treats the defensive and offensive aspects of the shield separately, so the enhancement cap for the shield protection aspect is a separate issue from the enhancement cap for the shield weapon aspect.
Further, for double weapons, I note the following passages from the CRB, which also support the notion that each head of a double weapon is considered a separate weapon and should be treated separately for enhancement caps.
Page 141 CRB:
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (see page 202).
Page 136 CRB:
Two-Weapon Defense feat applies to double weapons.
Page 144 CRB:
Weapon Qualities:
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
Page 154 CRB:
Special Materials
However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.
Page 202 CRB:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.