Why do dragons have hoards?

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

lemeres wrote:

maybe the big pile of gold simply serves as a traditional method to store liquid assets before they are put to use.

Have you any idea how much more dangerous the average Dragon would be with its wealth invested in a Belt, Headband, Cloak and AC booster? If they're planning to spend it, they should get on with it.

Dragons that use magic items = dead party. I actually did have a DM for first edition that would give his dragons magic items to use those were scary times.

Any dragon NOT using the magic items in its hoard is being stupid and deserves to be adventurer-fodder.

[Kileanna]

The BBEG of Price of Courage had a ring of Evasion and I don't remember if he had another one of protection against fire or just knew the spell. And I thought it was OK. I mean, it was meant to be an epic fight where the PCs were so overwhelmed that they couldn't win the fight just by sheer force but they had to use resources and clever strategies.

So if an intelligent enemy has resources to overcome some of its weaknesses, makes sense that it uses them, why not? As long as you keep everything balanced go for it.

As a GM you only have to set the encounters realizing that if you give powerful magic items to an enemy you will probably have to consider it as a higher CR.

[Kileanna]

Random coment aobout dragon hoards: In an old adventure that I GMed I rolled random treasure for a dragon hoard. One of the items was a big laugh: it was a +2 dragonbane quarterstaff. My players imagined that a Wizard with that weapon had for some reason attacked the dragon with that weapon and no magic xD

[thejeff]

Kileanna wrote:

The BBEG of Price of Courage had a ring of Evasion and I don't remember if he had another one of protection against fire or just knew the spell. And I thought it was OK. I mean, it was meant to be an epic fight where the PCs were so overwhelmed that they couldn't win the fight just by sheer force but they had to use resources and clever strategies.

So if an intelligent enemy has resources to overcome some of its weaknesses, makes sense that it uses them, why not? As long as you keep everything balanced go for it.

As a GM you only have to set the encounters realizing that if you give powerful magic items to an enemy you will probably have to consider it as a higher CR.

Making use of a few items it has makes sense and isn't likely to be overpowered.

Treating the entire hoard as a pool of wealth to spend to equip the dragon to kill PCs isn't kosher.

Dragons might use some trinkets, but they like hoards of treasure and they're quite confident in their own personal abilities (greed and arrogance, right?). And why shouldn't they be? Those abilities have served them well for centuries. They've killed scores of adventurers and would-be dragonslayers. They don't know your band of PCs is any different.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

thejeff wrote:

Kileanna wrote:

The BBEG of Price of Courage had a ring of Evasion and I don't remember if he had another one of protection against fire or just knew the spell. And I thought it was OK. I mean, it was meant to be an epic fight where the PCs were so overwhelmed that they couldn't win the fight just by sheer force but they had to use resources and clever strategies.

So if an intelligent enemy has resources to overcome some of its weaknesses, makes sense that it uses them, why not? As long as you keep everything balanced go for it.

As a GM you only have to set the encounters realizing that if you give powerful magic items to an enemy you will probably have to consider it as a higher CR.

Making use of a few items it has makes sense and isn't likely to be overpowered.

Treating the entire hoard as a pool of wealth to spend to equip the dragon to kill PCs isn't kosher.

Dragons might use some trinkets, but they like hoards of treasure and they're quite confident in their own personal abilities (greed and arrogance, right?). And why shouldn't they be? Those abilities have served them well for centuries. They've killed scores of adventurers and would-be dragonslayers. They don't know your band of PCs is any different.

This is why the truly wise dragon keeps detect PC and protection from PCs up at all times.

[Kileanna]

I agree with that. And taking that most magic items a dragon is hoarding is probably useless to him is also a factor. They keep stuff more for being valuable/interesting/a trophy than for being useful and probably won't even think of using it.

[Klorox]

I may have overlooked mention of this earlier, but I like the explanation found in the 3.5 Draconomicon : dracon must have a hoard to consume to help their soul gain access to the afterworld and avoid "the twilight" (i.e. senility), it can also be consumed to gain a form of immortality in becoming the guardian spirit of a geographical feature,... or as resources to research and gain the means to obtain dracolichdom... rather macabre, but quite logical motive to gather such a hoard.

[Ventnor]

Matthew Downie wrote:

lemeres wrote:

maybe the big pile of gold simply serves as a traditional method to store liquid assets before they are put to use.

Have you any idea how much more dangerous the average Dragon would be with its wealth invested in a Belt, Headband, Cloak and AC booster? If they're planning to spend it, they should get on with it.

Have you any idea how stupid a dragon wearing a belt, headband, and cloak would look? I think you overlook their vanity.

[Daw]

Dragons would be using an inlaid scale version of tattoo enchantments.

[Jim Landon]

thejeff wrote:

And yet, you rarely see dragons wandering down Main Street with a giant sack full of gold and rare objects looking to buy.

That's because they know polymorph self.

Also, "rarely" sounds like short lived species thinking.

[avr]

A possibility no one's mentioned so far - what if the hoard collects the dragon? A hoard of gold is decidedly dangerous to the dragon as has been mentioned, and many dragons (especially good ones, or those in remote areas) have no obvious means of collecting one.

Isn't it more likely that the gold and magic seeks out the dragon as part of completing their own peculiar looted-by-adventurers lifecycle?

[lemeres]

Matthew Downie wrote:

lemeres wrote:

maybe the big pile of gold simply serves as a traditional method to store liquid assets before they are put to use.

Have you any idea how much more dangerous the average Dragon would be with its wealth invested in a Belt, Headband, Cloak and AC booster? If they're planning to spend it, they should get on with it.

and do you know how much it costs to get the xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxl belt?

[M1k31]

Decimus Drake wrote:

It's probably all about sex. As Kileanna said, a large hoard is a status symbol, a sign of power. Thus dragons could select who they mate with on the basis of hoard size. The bigger the hoard = the more powerful the mate = the better the offspring.

Now I really want to make a dragon Vigilante Austin powers...

[UnArcaneElection]

Matthew Downie wrote:

lemeres wrote:

maybe the big pile of gold simply serves as a traditional method to store liquid assets before they are put to use.

Have you any idea how much more dangerous the average Dragon would be with its wealth invested in a Belt, Headband, Cloak and AC booster? If they're planning to spend it, they should get on with it.

For a few seconds I read that last part as that they should get it on . . . which some people have posted above that this is what the hoard is really for.

[Mohrlex the Reborn]

Ventnor wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

lemeres wrote:

maybe the big pile of gold simply serves as a traditional method to store liquid assets before they are put to use.

Have you any idea how much more dangerous the average Dragon would be with its wealth invested in a Belt, Headband, Cloak and AC booster? If they're planning to spend it, they should get on with it.

Have you any idea how stupid a dragon wearing a belt, headband, and cloak would look? I think you overlook their vanity.

Word of Red Dragon. Believe him.

I've known a White Dragon whose hoard was merely based on clothes. Specifically white clothes. I never knew if she used to wear them but she loved to spend a lot of time morphed into a human. She was a sadistic hag and her human shape allowed her more subtle manipulations. But I don't think she cared a lot for the properties of the gear she was wearing, just about of herself looking gorgeous on it. Speaking about vanity.

Her son collected potions. Lots of potions. And then he encased them on ice. So his hoard was based solely on frozen potions. He wasn't afraid of using them. He didn't even bothered to take them properly, he just crushed them with his teeth and swallowed them whole, with bottle and all. He was a weird guy.

These two dragons appeared on DL's Price of Courage and I thought they had the most bizarre hoards ever. My players even refused looting the potions because they felt that they were not worth the effort of releasing them from the ice.

[Lathiira]

Dragons hoard gold and whatnot to mark the location of ley line nexuses, duh!

Or was it to subtly shift the rotation of the planet by piling up mounds of ultra-dense and heavy stuff so as to carefully aim the world toward the most convenient Elder God? I forget.

[UnArcaneElection]

^The two might not be mutually exclusive . . . especially if ley lines of their own accord encourage the hoarding of things so as to get the world into the proper alignment for the Elder Gods to enter . . . .

[Nethys, "Elder God"]

Lathiira wrote:

Dragons hoard gold and whatnot to mark the location of ley line nexuses, duh!

Or was it to subtly shift the rotation of the planet by piling up mounds of ultra-dense and heavy stuff so as to carefully aim the world toward the most convenient Elder God? I forget.

As definitely the most convenient Elder God, I should point out that mass shifting probably isn't going to change the orbit much.

The ley line notion has interesting implications: are the magical properties of amassing wealth (i.e. the magic used by the Prophets of Kalistrade) acquired because said wealth spends time near nexi? This needs to be found out! Does anybody have a spare Golarion that I can test this on?

[Scott Wilhelm]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Easiest way to get food to self deliver to your cave

Much lower maintenance than a princess

All that treasure, and dragons never tip the pizza delivery guy. That is why they deserve to be slain!

[Scott Wilhelm]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

What's in it for them? Most are super intelligent and would know it just makes them a target for thieves and adventurers. And other dragons.

And what did they do before the advent of humanoid civilization? There weren't any coins back then, what did they hoard?

Dragons are a metaphor. They mean what the writer means, and so does their treasure. In Beowulf and Grendel, the Dragon seemed to represent the instinct to find something precious to you and never let it go. Smaug's presence in the Lonejly Mountain seemed to symbolize an oppressive economic policy, currency deflation or something. The Spanish called Sir Francis Drake El Draco, the dragon who plundered the silver they plundered from South America. Drake was a symbol for the burgeoning English Empire, back in the days when the concept of a global economy was a new thing. There was a dragon guarding the vaults of Gringotts Bank, but it was more a prisoner.

This is a question I've spent some time thinking about myself. For starters, what is money, and what is the significance of a monster like a dragon that is in some ways defined by the money it has?

I would have dragons use their money. I would have red and blue dragons operate banks that engage in predatory lending practices. I would have a gold dragon whose whole hoard is just a lending library. You'd never know that the librarian is a polymorphed gold dragon to look at her, that is until the party fails to return a library book on time....

[Mohrlex the Reborn]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Easiest way to get food to self deliver to your cave

Much lower maintenance than a princess

All that treasure, and dragons never tip the pizza delivery guy. That is why they deserve to be slain!

Pizza delivery... guy?

You mean the thing they bring in a box is the real food and not just a starter?
I might have eaten one or two of those «pizza delivery guys» by accident. They should have made clear that they weren't the food!

[Alni]

Why do dragons have hoards has been an issue with me. They kill adventurers and then... take the gold from their pockets? A huge dragon checking the pockets of dead adventurer, with a nail? Then after they've shaken the gold out of them, and opened their backpacks and taken any valuables from there they carry it in their cupped palm back to their lair? What if they recover a lot of it? Multiple flights back? Pack it? Need someone to draw a dragon packing up the treasure they just got in sacks for easier transport.

Then again, it was in Baldur's Gate I think where bears kept gold and jewelry... somewhere...

[Coquelicot Dragon]

Truth be told, I don't even want all of this crap but folks keep coming into my home, unannounced, and dying. I am left with their garbage. I mean, none of this stuff decomposes. What, exactly, am I supposed to do with it?

Worst of all, it attracts adventurers the way a dung heap gathers flies. The problem just gets bigger as we get older. It's embarrassing. That's why you rarely see ancient dragons: we're too mortified to have company over, or even be seen in public. And you wonder why we're so irritable.

This is where I live people, so please, take your trash somewhere else.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Alni wrote:

Why do dragons have hoards has been an issue with me. They kill adventurers and then... take the gold from their pockets? A huge dragon checking the pockets of dead adventurer, with a nail? Then after they've shaken the gold out of them, and opened their backpacks and taken any valuables from there they carry it in their cupped palm back to their lair? What if they recover a lot of it? Multiple flights back? Pack it? Need someone to draw a dragon packing up the treasure they just got in sacks for easier transport.

Then again, it was in Baldur's Gate I think where bears kept gold and jewelry... somewhere...

Mage Hand, Unseen Servant

[Mohrlex the Reborn]

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Alni wrote:

Why do dragons have hoards has been an issue with me. They kill adventurers and then... take the gold from their pockets? A huge dragon checking the pockets of dead adventurer, with a nail? Then after they've shaken the gold out of them, and opened their backpacks and taken any valuables from there they carry it in their cupped palm back to their lair? What if they recover a lot of it? Multiple flights back? Pack it? Need someone to draw a dragon packing up the treasure they just got in sacks for easier transport.

Then again, it was in Baldur's Gate I think where bears kept gold and jewelry... somewhere...

Mage Hand, Unseen Servant

Destroy everything with breath weapon. Whatever remains is valuable for sure. Whatever doesn't is not worth your attention.

[lemeres]

Alni wrote:

Why do dragons have hoards has been an issue with me. They kill adventurers and then... take the gold from their pockets? A huge dragon checking the pockets of dead adventurer, with a nail? Then after they've shaken the gold out of them, and opened their backpacks and taken any valuables from there they carry it in their cupped palm back to their lair? What if they recover a lot of it? Multiple flights back? Pack it? Need someone to draw a dragon packing up the treasure they just got in sacks for easier transport.

Then again, it was in Baldur's Gate I think where bears kept gold and jewelry... somewhere...

i think my previous point about the durability of gold and jewels might be th answer for that.

i think it might be a gizzard thing. you know how owls sometimes eat a mouse whole, and then spit up a pellet containing the fur and bones? same general idea. maybe they then just pick out the worthless and crumpled up armor and weapons to leave a nice looking pile.

actually, thinking about gizzards, maybe it is a health thing. gizzards are basically organs that have swallowed stones that are used to basically grind up the food, right? maybe gems and gold are really good for that. itmakes sense really- the huge mouths of dragons do not actuslly seem that suited for chewing, and all the fangs are likely justa method of keeping prey from escaping. they need a secondary 'mouth' to chew. diamonds for chewing up armor, and softer gold for chewing up peasants, livestock, and wizards.

[Meraki]

Alni wrote:

Why do dragons have hoards has been an issue with me. They kill adventurers and then... take the gold from their pockets? A huge dragon checking the pockets of dead adventurer, with a nail?

Well, if they're all the way dead, the only thing you can do is go through their clothes and look for loose change.

[Klorox]

I guess that if towns or merchant roads go through their territory, they just go through the classic racket...

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

What's in it for them? Most are super intelligent and would know it just makes them a target for thieves and adventurers. And other dragons.

And what did they do before the advent of humanoid civilization? There weren't any coins back then, what did they hoard?

Because I'm an F'ing Dragon! I'll do what I like and if you think you can stop me, then come try!