I am 8 sessions into the Wrath, once again after my game folded two years ago due to player complications and mythic rules complications. After learning from my previous mistakes we are trying it again.
My changes have been:
* No mythic
* 25 Point buy
* Free cohort
* 5 hero points
* Mythic removed from most NPC's
In addition, we are using some unchained rules to spice things up:
* Automatic Bonus Progression
* Poisons and Disease
* Background Skills
* Skill unlocks open to everyone without a feat, or if you have the Signature Skill feat, you get all unlocks 5 levels earlier.
So far, the game has run very well. The odd thing, was I am in the very few that thought the campaign was too hard, instead of too easy. My players were getting hammered at all points, even with mythic. I think it's a lot to do with how I run the games, I use a lot of environmental effects (wind, darkness, etc) and that tends to reduce power a lot. I do believe that continuing with mythic on the previous game would have eventually caught us, since we ended the campaign at the end of the 3rd book. From what I read, it's that point people started to really feel the problems.
For now, what I have been doing mostlyi homebrew in the world running parallel to the story they have already played. So they can see their actions while focusing on different aspects. For example, we are going to Raliscrad to face Minagho now that she is depowered (this never happened in the AP, but her story was hinted at).
What I am wondering is with all the changes I have made, is this campaign viable to the finish? The books talk about how we should end at the end of book 5, given they could never face Deskari, but I am uncertain. The legendary abilities of automatic bonus progression give a huge boost at highter levels. It might still be possible.
I was also thinking about giving an extra feat at every 5 levels to beef of up their power a bit, I am sure in the long run, this is less useful. Maybe a +1 bonus to saving throws every 5 levels would help a lot more than a few feats. The magic items they get in the game will also help. I mean, man, look at all the artifacts that populate this AP!!!
Any ideas on how to make their characters poweful enough to face Demon lords, but not too powerful?
Oh, and their effective level for automatic bonus progression is two levels higher than normal, so at third level they get the fifth level abilities. And finally, the enhancement bonuses stack with magical weapon properties instead of having to buy them.
Yeah, I think that's all the major house rules.
I feel like anyone who removes Mythic entirely unless agreed upon by all players is robbing them of an amazing experience.
There are plenty of ways to tone it down and still let them be super heroes. There are things in mythic that are not achievable by the standard rules.
I look at mythic as the point was to be a super hero instead of just a hero (or anti hero, whatever your flavor).
Removong anything that directly increases damage would solve a lot of the issues.
I feel that anyone running this campaign with Mythic is setting up themsevles and their players for Pain and failure. I expect losing 5 cm of my colon to be less painful than the end of Wrath.
To the OP
Yes the early books into book 3 can be challanging.
I think you will be able to run unto the end, you can take Deskari. I am running a level 20 game , well built lvl 20 characters should with difficulty be able to take Deskari, particularly if they have cohorts in company.
If you are not sure then you could give the players a template or a few stat bonus's. Make sure they get a chance to use Wish/miracle to boost their stats before the book 6 countdown, you may also want to extend the time line a bit as they don't have quite the depth of resources of a mythic party
What I am wondering is with all the changes I have made, is this campaign viable to the finish? The books talk about how we should end at the end of book 5, given they could never face Deskari, but I am uncertain. The legendary abilities of automatic bonus progression give a huge boost at highter levels. It might still be possible.
A lot of the details here will depend on the composition of the party and their level of optimization, of course.
FWIW, I think you shouldn't have a problem running non-mythic characters through the first five books (especially given the addition of hero points, etc). Among other things, the relatively homogenous nature of the opposition allows players to focus on items and spells that are good against Evil Outsiders, and that gives them a big power boost, relatively speaking. (My players quickly added Evil Outsider Bane and Holy to all of their, the ranger took Evil-Outsider as their favored enemy, and so on, and that made combat much easier.)
I think book 6 is the main one to worry about. I feel like the writers of the AP didn't forsee how powerful the Mythic rules make PCs, and so made the first 5 legs of the AP much too easy. But I think the writers finally started to catch on by book 6, and as a result, tried to boost the difficulty of book 6 a fair bit (relative to the other books).
Now, I think book 6 still ends up being really easy for mythic characters, but it is substantially harder than (say) book 5, and parts of it are possibly too hard for non-mythic characters. But if you're removing mythic power from most of the opposition too (as I think you said you were), then even book 6 seems like it should be fine for non-mythic characters.
I feel like anyone who removes Mythic entirely unless agreed upon by all players is robbing them of an amazing experience.
Thanks for your comment, but as I said this is the second time running the game and we did try mythic. It did not work.
I think you will be able to run unto the end, you can take Deskari. I am running a level 20 game , well built lvl 20 characters should with difficulty be able to take Deskari, particularly if they have cohorts in company.
If you are not sure then you could give the players a template or a few stat bonus's. Make sure they get a chance to use Wish/miracle to boost their stats before the book 6 countdown, you may also want to extend the time line a bit as they don't have quite the depth of resources of a mythic party
This is encouraging. I am quite nervous about how magic will cause complications at higher levels. I do believe their damage output will be sufficient to take on higher level foes, as well as their ability to shrug off attacks. I help them with their builds and watch their stats closely against the enemies. I love a hard game, but no one likes an impossible one. Again, my biggest worry are spells like blasphemy or banishment. The save DC's are so high, high 20's to low 30's, that a single failed save is rough. In fact, effectively ending the encounter for player, if not the party.
And yes, each player has a free cohort that I have designed for support purposes.
I am not worried about the characters with a fast saving throw progression, but the characters with a slow progression. It's usually a +6 to a +10 difference and that high save DC becomes close to impossible.
Giving a flat bonus to all saves seems stronger than I would like, but giving a bonus to all the slow track just looks like desperation. I suppose the best thing to do would be to monitor it closely and make adjustments with items when needed.
I think book 6 is the main one to worry about...
This gives me a lot of hope. It's possible I grant them a mythic tier or two during book 6. As long as I stay away from the unbalancing feats, I might have enough to help with the wayward save and still give the party a real chance to shine. Thankfully we are far from that point.
Looking at Deskari and my level 20 party (25 pt build and have had access to a template such as weretiger or Vampire) I would expect them to win. Blasphemy as a spell is a serious issue (not particularly becaise of the save but the paralysis and blinding even if they save) but that is a problem level 20 characters should be able to solve, counterspelling with Holy word, or Greater spell immunity communal are available options and they should really prepare for such dangerous encounters.
I would give them access to 'Ye Magic Shoppe' so they can customise their Wealth for high effectiveness including useful scrolls etc.
Deskari and the other boss fights will be tough but they are level 20 , will be well equipped and should be able to win with effort. I think CR29 for Deskari and other demon lords is optimistic more like CR 25 , tough but winnable by a level 20 party.
But it will depend on your party and their optimisation , mine are fairly optimised and I think they could beat anything in book 6, what might get them is the number of encounters as it will use up more of their resources for each fight, so I would reduce the strength and numbers of secondar encounters and keep the dangerous main encounters , but give the players a longer time line to they can afford to fully recover their abilities a few more times.
Deskari is optional anyway and if they manage to bring Nocticula to the battlefield as an ally that alone makes the fight much more winnable
Excellent advice.
Thank you. I'll keep my things as I've adjusted and plan for the best.