In my campaign an archenemy knocked the level 4 witch unconscious and kidnapped her compsognathus familiar. The thief fled to a small town (1,200 population) and was hiding with the familiar (sealed in a box) in a warehouse when the PCs arrived at the town in hot pursuit.
When the witch was a mile from the town I told her that she had regained the empathic link with the familiar and that it was in the town.
BUT would the witch be able to know exactly which building the familiar is being kept captive in by using empathic link? (remember the familiar has been locked in a box and has no idea where it is since being kidnapped)
I've been looking in the books and online but cannot find an answer.
(In the game I had to make an instant decision as GM, so I allowed the witch to home in on the precise warehouse, but I think I may have made a mistake. I need to know for future reference.)
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In my campaign an archenemy knocked the level 4 witch unconscious and kidnapped her compsognathus familiar. The thief fled to a small town (1,200 population) and was hiding with the familiar (sealed in a box) in a warehouse when the PCs arrived at the town in hot pursuit.
When the witch was a mile from the town I told her that she had regained the empathic link with the familiar and that it was in the town.
BUT would the witch be able to know exactly which building the familiar is being kept captive in by using empathic link? (remember the familiar has been locked in a box and has no idea where it is since being kidnapped)
I've been looking in the books and online but cannot find an answer.
(In the game I had to make an instant decision as GM, so I allowed the witch to home in on the precise warehouse, but I think I may have made a mistake. I need to know for future reference.)
Even if not direct locations, you could suggest the witch "Triangulate" the familiar by approaching from the north, marking where the feeling started on a map, doing so from the SE and SW and such, until they have a center point, allowing them to track to the general location of the familiar.
In my campaign an archenemy knocked the level 4 witch unconscious and kidnapped her compsognathus familiar. The thief fled to a small town (1,200 population) and was hiding with the familiar (sealed in a box) in a warehouse when the PCs arrived at the town in hot pursuit.
When the witch was a mile from the town I told her that she had regained the empathic link with the familiar and that it was in the town.
BUT would the witch be able to know exactly which building the familiar is being kept captive in by using empathic link? (remember the familiar has been locked in a box and has no idea where it is since being kidnapped)
I've been looking in the books and online but cannot find an answer.
(In the game I had to make an instant decision as GM, so I allowed the witch to home in on the precise warehouse, but I think I may have made a mistake. I need to know for future reference.)
Empathic Link allows communication, not "sensing".
Essentially, the moment you are within 1 mile of your familiar the "empathic link" connection establishes... you know it's on a 1 mile radius, but there's no compass pointing to the general direction your familiar is located.
The empathic link is "digital", either is enabled or disabled, the "signal strength" doesn't grow or decrease based on distance unless you rule otherwise. If the familiar cannot give hints over the kidnap location (the familiar might communicate what she hears, sees or smells), then other approaches must be taken.
As TrinitysEnd stated, your Witch might try that approach using a map to more or less triangulate possition, but still won't be enough to point at a particular building. Most probably, with enough reference points, you could limit the radius to 1/10 of a mile or so. Also be aware that "triangulation" would be affected if the familiar is transfered to another location.
You wouldn't be able to learn the exact building, even if the Familiar was able to observe the surroundings continually. It's an Empathic Link, i.e. an emotional tie, not internal-voice communication. As the ability states "Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared." i.e. happy, sad, scared, etc.
So you would know if the Familiar suddenly gets scared, you would know if it suddenly gets happy (maybe it can see you before you have seen it?), but nothing CLOSE to the spatial organizational directions or even details of environment like you are suggesting. As others said, it's "binary", you either are close enough to feel the Familiar's emotions or you don't feel them, there isn't more information conveyed e.g. specific distance via intensity, etc.
The ability does also state "The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does." which is something entirely outside of the realm of COMMUNICATION, but would be relevant for things like Scrying, Teleport, etc. (even before gaining Scry on Familiar ability). Although it sounds like you are low enough level those aren't in play yet.
Honestly, I don't expect the advice about "triangulating" to be particularly useful here, a 1,200 person town is small enough there isn't going to be much discernable difference, never mind that you won't really have some ultra-precise map to use for this triangulation process, you will be "OK, I'm on a wooded path approaching the first building of town" "OK, I'm in the middle of a field behind some shacks".
So, sounds like your GM intends to have a real investigation adventure to find it, not just press a button to get pointed to the end. I don't think there is any "special mechanic" from the Familiar which changes this dynamic, any more than if it was just a mundane animal. ...Enjoy the ride...
Empathic link is just about the lamest ability there is. I encourage you to houserule some usefulness into it.
You wouldn't be able to learn the exact building, even if the Familiar was able to observe the surroundings continually. It's an Empathic Link, i.e. an emotional tie, not internal-voice communication. As the ability states "Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared." i.e. happy, sad, scared, etc.
So you would know if the Familiar suddenly gets scared, you would know if it suddenly gets happy (maybe it can see you before you have seen it?), but nothing CLOSE to the spatial organizational directions or even details of environment like you are suggesting. As others said, it's "binary", you either are close enough to feel the Familiar's emotions or you don't feel them, there isn't more information conveyed e.g. specific distance via intensity, etc.
The ability does also state "The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does." which is something entirely outside of the realm of COMMUNICATION, but would be relevant for things like Scrying, Teleport, etc. (even before gaining Scry on Familiar ability). Although it sounds like you are low enough level those aren't in play yet.
Honestly, I don't expect the advice about "triangulating" to be particularly useful here, a 1,200 person town is small enough there isn't going to be much discernable difference, never mind that you won't really have some ultra-precise map to use for this triangulation process, you will be "OK, I'm on a wooded path approaching the first building of town" "OK, I'm in the middle of a field behind some shacks".
So, sounds like your GM intends to have a real investigation adventure to find it, not just press a button to get pointed to the end. I don't think there is any "special mechanic" from the Familiar which changes this dynamic, any more than if it was just a mundane animal. ...Enjoy the ride...
That is where Survival comes in handy, if you get enough reference points, you can make a point that is 1 mile in between all of them, and make your own map to scale to best find where it is. Sure it'd work better with modern day machines, but it's still easily done. Is it perfect? No. But it's more than nothing.
Thanks so much. Excellent responses, and the TRIANGULATION! Also now that we are here ... 1/ If the witch (level 4) is knocked unconscious I think the familiar would go to get help if it knew an ally was resting just a few minutes away, or ... would it stay with the witch? It has an INT of 7. 2/ Who should decide for the familiar? I told the witch that she must make decisions for the familiar, and not the GM.
Background info ... In my scenario the witch was unconscious (knocked down by wood golem; who returned to its nonanimated sentry roll after rendering unconscious all the 3 party members and did NOT spot the familiar) and I asked what the familiar was doing at this crucial time in a dangerous dungeon. The witch, instead of sending it to get help (a dwarf ally was just resting 3 rounds away), said the familiar would just wait. Then after am hour another foe turned up and captured the familiar and stripped the party members.
Thanks so much. Excellent responses, and the TRIANGULATION! Also now that we are here ... 1/ If the witch (level 4) is knocked unconscious I think the familiar would go to get help if it knew an ally was resting just a few minutes away, or ... would it stay with the witch? It has an INT of 7. 2/ Who should decide for the familiar? I told the witch that she must make decisions for the familiar, and not the GM.
Background info ... In my scenario the witch was unconscious (knocked down by wood golem; who returned to its nonanimated sentry roll after rendering unconscious all the 3 party members and did NOT spot the familiar) and I asked what the familiar was doing at this crucial time in a dangerous dungeon. The witch, instead of sending it to get help (a dwarf ally was just resting 3 rounds away), said the familiar would just wait. Then after am hour another foe turned up and captured the familiar and stripped the party members.
1 & 2: For the most part, I generally let my players control their own animals. I only step in to take control in the instance where one would need to push an animal or the likes. If the person was silly and didn't go get help, that's their choice.
Do you mind if I ask how the thief did not trigger the golem and also spotted the familiar?
Also a small rule that might have been missed but might be nice for your party later on. If you are Uncon but stable, you can, once an hour, roll a Constitution check (DC 10, but with a negative equal to negative HP) to regain consciousness. You act as though disabled, and too difficult of actions will put you back out. But it could at least get the party members up and out in a bad situation.
Thanks so much. Excellent responses, and the TRIANGULATION! Also now that we are here ... 1/ If the witch (level 4) is knocked unconscious I think the familiar would go to get help if it knew an ally was resting just a few minutes away, or ... would it stay with the witch? It has an INT of 7. 2/ Who should decide for the familiar? I told the witch that she must make decisions for the familiar, and not the GM.
Background info ... In my scenario the witch was unconscious (knocked down by wood golem; who returned to its nonanimated sentry roll after rendering unconscious all the 3 party members and did NOT spot the familiar) and I asked what the familiar was doing at this crucial time in a dangerous dungeon. The witch, instead of sending it to get help (a dwarf ally was just resting 3 rounds away), said the familiar would just wait. Then after am hour another foe turned up and captured the familiar and stripped the party members.1 & 2: For the most part, I generally let my players control their own animals. I only step in to take control in the instance where one would need to push an animal or the likes. If the person was silly and didn't go get help, that's their choice.
Do you mind if I ask how the thief did not trigger the golem and also spotted the familiar?
Also a small rule that might have been missed but might be nice for your party later on. If you are Uncon but stable, you can, once an hour, roll a Constitution check (DC 10, but with a negative equal to negative HP) to regain consciousness. You act as though disabled, and too difficult of actions will put you back out. But it could at least get the party members up and out in a bad situation.
First, I ruled the thieves triggered and fought the golem and defeated it. Then they started robbing the familiar, who was hiding in the witch's backpack. A perception natural 20 from the one thief spotted the familiar. Then he grappled it with a CMB 19, and pinned and tied it up with a further natural 20. (I was rolling amazing!)
Second, thanks for reminding me of the second part of regaining Con after an hour. The thieves arrived after one hour actually. This news will make the witch feel less responsible. I as DM can take more blame! Cheers!The video of the session is on our FB page Pathfinder RPG Tokyo
Thanks so much. Excellent responses, and the TRIANGULATION! Also now that we are here ... 1/ If the witch (level 4) is knocked unconscious I think the familiar would go to get help if it knew an ally was resting just a few minutes away, or ... would it stay with the witch? It has an INT of 7. 2/ Who should decide for the familiar? I told the witch that she must make decisions for the familiar, and not the GM.
Background info ... In my scenario the witch was unconscious (knocked down by wood golem; who returned to its nonanimated sentry roll after rendering unconscious all the 3 party members and did NOT spot the familiar) and I asked what the familiar was doing at this crucial time in a dangerous dungeon. The witch, instead of sending it to get help (a dwarf ally was just resting 3 rounds away), said the familiar would just wait. Then after am hour another foe turned up and captured the familiar and stripped the party members.1 & 2: For the most part, I generally let my players control their own animals. I only step in to take control in the instance where one would need to push an animal or the likes. If the person was silly and didn't go get help, that's their choice.
Do you mind if I ask how the thief did not trigger the golem and also spotted the familiar?
SORRY, I meant they started robbing the party members and spotted the familiar. As they were robbing them the dwarf fighter ally eventually turned up and after a brief skirmish chased the thieves off (who had themselves been damaged by the wood golem)
First, I ruled the thieves triggered and fought the golem and defeated it. Then they started robbing the familiar, who was hiding in the witch's backpack. A perception natural 20 from the one thief spotted the familiar. Then he grappled it with a CMB 19, and pinned and tied it up with a further natural 20. (I was rolling amazing!)
Second, thanks for reminding me of the second part of regaining Con after an hour. The thieves arrived after one hour actually. This news will make the witch feel less responsible. I as DM can take more blame! Cheers!
The video of the session is on our FB page Pathfinder RPG Tokyo
Seems you are doing your best to try and get everything back together. Good luck to you and your party! (Since question is answered)
Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar to a 1 mile distance. The master can communicate empathically with the familiar, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared. The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does.
Does anyone know what this last sentence means? I could read it as knowing if that area, or that box is with spell ranges.
I don't think it has any bearing on that, IMHO it applies to things like Scrying or Teleport which depend on familiarity with target location. But at this character level, I didn't think there were many relevant spells that would be useful for his purpose.
And again I find idea of triangulation not actually useful in game reality. Aside from details of mapping itself, it mostly is just superfluous. Because when you're walking and it suddenly "pings" as within 1 mile of you, that pretty much means: it is 1 mile AHEAD of you, because that direction is the only distance that has changed from your walking. If it is mobile and actually moved towards you (potentially from any direction), then that will conflict with establishing some triangulation around a ~2 mile diameter area, since it is no longer in a reliable fixed position to triangulate.
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hmm to find a familiar when you get a link on\off at exectly 1 mile...
id let them roll knowledge (geometry) ;)
(i know you said 'Triangulate' and im just exltaining it. but not many know that it's not something very dificult that only nerds can do)
mark the first exect point you get the link on sign, point A. go back out of signel and head in any diraction (lets say north) for 10 steps then try to get close untill you ping the signel again. mark that as point B. now you should be able to do the following.
1: draw a stright line betwin A and B.
2: from the signel off\on know which way the radius of the mile is going (say a and be are north and south and the signel is coming on whne you head east of the points)
3: go to the middle of AB turn 90° to the diraction the ping is from and head stright, in a (very) little less then 1 mile your be at the familiar location.
should look like this
and probebly work better from above or at a flat land with no obstractions
hmm to find a familiar when you get a link on\off at exectly 1 mile...
id let them roll knowledge (geometry) ;)(i know you said 'Triangulate' and im just exltaining it. but not many know that it's not something very dificult that only nerds can do)
mark the first exect point you get the link on sign, point A. go back out of signel and head in any diraction (lets say north) for 10 steps then try to get close untill you ping the signel again. mark that as point B. now you should be able to do the following.
1: draw a stright line betwin A and B.
2: from the signel off\on know which way the radius of the mile is going (say a and be are north and south and the signel is coming on whne you head east of the points)
3: go to the middle of AB turn 90° to the diraction the ping is from and head stright, in a (very) little less then 1 mile your be at the familiar location.should look like this
and probebly work better from above or at a flat land with no obstractions
I think I will send my players on a geometry course! That's excellent and that diagram really does explain it
for bonus points you can also find out exectly how far(less then a mile) is your familiar.
lets call the middle of AB line, point M (like in the diagram). point O is where the familiar is. (and hope he isn't being moved.)
now we go to old Pitagoras (he was a Mathmagician on Golorian)
A^2+B^2=C^2
MP is the line from where you stand to the familiar.
MB or MA is half the distance betwin A and B. and you can find that out.
AO and BO is exectly one mile (and the distance betwin the familiar and poitns A and B).
Triangulation at a mile distance requires more measuring precision than is likely to ba available. This is making the only quasi-likely assumption that the one mile range is precise in its own self. With the cantrip to know direction, at least the dead reckoning is reasonable.
Now with a time consuming process of walking in and out of range you could actually map the whole perimeter, if the familiar never is moved. You would be better off staking off about 100 feet of the perimeter, and walking perpendicularly away from that perimeter, towards the familiar, using know direction to maintain your direction. If you do this from two directions you can get a moderately good triangulation with the resources the party should reasonably have available.
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This really should require some ranks in Knowledge(engineering) and probably a roll to get right. Player knowledge of triangulation shouldn't freely translate to character knowledge.
EDIT: Also, an actual compass beats know direction hands down (one is good for a bonus to not get lost, one isn't), probably because it's continuous instead of intermittent.
Good point Tinales. That you might spook the thief could work for or against you though.