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I recently I converted the Fantasy Flight Star Wars RPG to Pathfinder because my group didn’t like their dice system. However, once I finished that I started to think that I really liked how the Fantasy Flight version of Star Wars had a system without character levels. In the system you use the xp you earn to buy improvements for your character. So, as kind of a thought experiment, I started converting Pathfinder into the Fantasy Flight Star Wars version of “leveling”. It combines elements from both the Fantasy Flight Star Wars and the Mutants and Masterminds RPG. I'm putting it here for people to try out if they are interested, but I would also like feedback on how to improve it.
Here is the link to my drive doc which is formatted cleaner and has tables: Point Buy Pathfinder..
Easy Reference Table
Character Trait / XP Cost
Ability Score +2: Current Mod x 10 = xp
Hit Points (1 Hit Die): 10 xp
Saves +1: 5 xp
Base Attack Bonus and Magic Rating +1: 10 xp
Skills (4 points): 5 xp
Feats: 10 xp
Class Specials: XP Varies by Tier (explained later)
The main purpose of an experience point buy mechanic is to give players a little more freedom in the abilities they take and when they take them (either earlier or later). It also provides the opportunity to fix broken character by giving the player the ability to make up for any imbalances and buy the necessary traits with freshly earned xp. I tried to keep it simple, but it is still a little more complicated than the normal game of leveling. In that regard, it is not suggested for new players.
The Game Master performs three tasks that promote a balanced game with no standard levels. They set the power level of the game, they control the game by their xp awards, and they talk with players if a character is becoming unbalanced in a way that is detrimental to the fun of the game.
Power Level
Generally a Power Level is set to the maximum of one of the tiers of play: apprentice 4, heroic 10, paragon 16, epic 20. All characters play at this level which determines their xp and where they can spend it. A character can buy Hit Die, Base Attack Bonuses, Skills, Feats, Class Abilities, etc. with xp earned during adventuring. I used the idea of Power Levels from Mutants and Masterminds to solves balance issues by creating a maximum limit for xp investment. The essence of the mechanic is that the GM can set a Power Level to any of the traditional levels creating an upper limit for xp investment. For example, at Power Level 4 (PL 4) the maximum HD, BAB, Caster Levels, Saves max out at 4 and PCs cannot invest anymore xp into that ability.
Adventure Paths have a preset power limit, which make them easy to use for the Power Level mechanic. Just use the maximum level for the adventure as the current power level.
Tiers of Play
Power Level / Name / Traditional Levels / Starting XP
PL 4 Apprentice (Local); Level 1-4; 50 xp
PL 10 Heroic(Kingdom); Level 5-10; 300 xp
PL 16 Paragon (Global); Level 11-16; 650 xp
PL 20 Epic (Planar); Level 17-20; 1000 xp
Awarding Experience Points
The only serious change to I made to Pathfinder to make this mechanic work was to the experience awards. Experience awards are much smaller and made by milestones not by defeating individual monsters or challenge groups. Typically the character will start with 50 xp to spend on his new character. Then they will receive 40 to 60 xp per session or by milestone (in increments of 5), possibly increasing at higher power levels. Special achievements during an adventure can award 5 to 10 xp for story awards.
Step 1: Classes and Careers
1. Choose a Career: Arcane, Divine, Expert, Martial, Occult, Wild
2. Choose one class specialization in that career
Careers / Class Specializations
Arcane: Wizard, Sorcerer, Summoner, Magus
Divine: Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, Oracle
Expert: Rogue, Bard, Ninja, Alchemist
Martial: Fighter, Monk, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Samurai
Occult: Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic, Spiritualist
Wild: Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, Witch, Kineticist
Adopting another class specialization within the career is costs 10xp to open up the traits of another class, essentially adding that class as a second specialization. It cost 20xp to take a specialization from a class outside your career or in a prestige. Each additional class taken taken after that adds an extra 10xp.
Step 2: Ability Points
Roll or Point buy as usual. After character creation the cost to raise an ability is done by 2 points and is (ability modifier) x10 = total xp cost. For example: If I have a score of 16, modifier (3); then it costs 30xp to move up to an 18 and another 40xp to move up to 20.
Step 3: Hit Points
10 xp per Hit Die. On creation the first Hit Die purchased is counted as max hit points. Further Hit Die bought must be rolled to establish hit points. No max hit points, for balance reasons.
Step 4: Saves
5 xp per +1 to any saves. On character creation character starts with +2 as the same as the class they have chosen.
Step 5: Base Attack Bonus and Magic Rating
To increase BAB or Magic Rating by 1 costs 10 xp.
Magic Rating Definition: Magic Rating is a mechanic taken for the Unearth Arcana of 3.5. It simplifies the magic system for use of a single 10xp investment. A character’s magic rating measures the power of her spells and spell-like abilities. It replaces caster level for determining range, targets, effect, area, duration, dispel checks, difficulty to dispel, caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, and all other effects of a spell or spell-like ability based on her caster level. It has no effect on extraordinary or supernatural abilities.
Step 6: Skills
5 xp per 4 skill points to spend in any ranks. Classes provides an initial 4 ranks in trained skills.
Step 7: Feats
10 xp per feat. A feat is off limits if it requires a level or base attack bonus that is beyond the current Power Level. Special: fighters, monks, rangers, wizards, and others with bonus/free feats subtract 5xp from the cost of the feat.
Step 8: Class Specials
Class Special Ability Costs:
The cost of an ability or rank in the ability depends on ts location in tiers of play on the class ability chart. For example, a character with monk class as one of their specialties can purchase Wholeness of Body for 10 xp because it is listed as a 7th level ability (BUT only if the game is Power Level 7 or higher). Special: Abilities like Wild Empathy, Wholeness of Body, etc. that rely on character level can be run off the total number of Hit Die the character has purchased with xp.
Play Tier / Traditional Class Level / XP Costs
Apprentice (Local); Level 1-4; 5 xp
Heroic (Kingdom); Level 5-10; 10 xp
Paragon (Global); Level 11-16; 15 xp
Epic (Planar); Level 17-20; 20 xp
Many classes have special abilities that improve with level. A Class Special is ranked if you can increase its power. Ranks are therefore a measure a class special abilities’ power. For these abilities the player buys ranks each time they want to increase the power of the ability. .
Unranked Examples: Evasion, Divine Grace, Woodland Stride
Examples of Abilities with 10 Ranks: Sneak Attack and Channel Divinity both max out at rank 10. adding 1d6 each rank. Sneak Attack (Rank 10) does 10d6 damage. Channel Divinity (Rank 8) creates 8d6 positive energy.
Examples of Abilities with 20 Ranks: Class companions and Flurry of Blows can both be taken to rank 20. An Animal Companions are ranked by adding level benefits per rank. Animal Companion (Rank 6) gains the benefits of a level 6 companion. Flurry of Blows (Rank 12) awards the attack series of +10/+10/+5/+5/+0.
Step 9: Magic
Magic Rating is 10xp per level. Consult the spells per day table of full magic users: wizards, druids, or clerics to determine the spell slots available at the current magic rating. If there are 2 specializations such as Cleric and Paladin, the character can then prepare either cleric or paladin spells to fit the slots.
Ranked Magical Abilities: Spontaneous Casting and Extra Spell Slots. Their xp cost is based on the tiers of play, the same as other class abilities.
Spontaneous Casting:
This feature of a class applies to the ranking system (same as class special abilities), pick a number of spells to spontaneously cast = to the rank in spontaneous casting. Special: Sorcerers learn 4 cantrips in the beginning and 2 spells for every rank in spontaneous casting.
Extra Spell Slots:
This is a new added class special ability feature for Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, and School Focused Wizards. They receive an extra spell slot for each rank in extra spell slot.
I took a quick scan and this popped out at me:
"Step 3: Hit Points
10 xp per Hit Die. On creation the first Hit Die purchased is counted as max hit points. Further Hit Die bought must be rolled to establish hit points. No max hit points, for balance reasons."
I would ditch the rolling and use a flat number for each hit die. I would also use a percentage.
Examples:
50%: 3, 4, 5, 6
75%: 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9
I see a lot of problems with this system. The biggest one that pops out to me is that you're treating HD separate from saving throw bonuses, BAB, and all other statistics when they should be a package deal. For example, it's possible to have a +3 BAB but a 1 HD. This completely breaks the math of the game and will result horribly balanced characters. How the system handles class features doesn't feel well defined.
I took a quick scan and this popped out at me:
"Step 3: Hit Points
10 xp per Hit Die. On creation the first Hit Die purchased is counted as max hit points. Further Hit Die bought must be rolled to establish hit points. No max hit points, for balance reasons."I would ditch the rolling and use a flat number for each hit die. I would also use a percentage.
Examples:
50%: 3, 4, 5, 6
75%: 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9
I was trying to keep with the rules for hit die as much as possible, but I also like the flat numbers. I would probably use something like 5e that is half the Hit Die +1. d6 = 4; d8 = 5, d10 = 6, d12 = 7
I see a lot of problems with this system. The biggest one that pops out to me is that you're treating HD separate from saving throw bonuses, BAB, and all other statistics when they should be a package deal. For example, it's possible to have a +3 BAB but a 1 HD. This completely breaks the math of the game and will result horribly balanced characters. How the system handles class features doesn't feel well defined.
The very point of what I did was to unpackage the deal, as you say, and give players a little more freedom. I understand that you prefer standard levels because that was how the game was designed, but that's why I am posting in homebrew. If loyalty to standard leveling is the lens you choose to see though, then you will only see horrible problems with this system.
I understand that, but you're messing with the internal math of the game, which will create a lot of mechanical problems. You can pull this off by not having to do that. You can create a system where you can purchase what you get from each level.
Good to see some free point buyer's stuff for character-making out there for PF. ;)
Cyrad,
I believe that messing with the internal math is the whole point of the exercise. The biggest downside I can see is extra work and skill required of the GM and players to avoid cheesy stupidness. You know, the stuff that gets argued about every day on these forums. The game system as described may be beyond the abilities of some, but could lead to some very interesting play.
Cyrad,
I believe that messing with the internal math is the whole point of the exercise. The biggest downside I can see is extra work and skill required of the GM and players to avoid cheesy stupidness. You know, the stuff that gets argued about every day on these forums. The game system as described may be beyond the abilities of some, but could lead to some very interesting play.
As I said, changing the internal math will create many mechanical problems. Those problems go way beyond than just giving players abusive options. It's usually a very bad idea unless you really know what you're doing.
It's just a game Cyrad, the penalties for them making a few fails are unlikely to cause any notable real life problems. Having advised on and play tested several systems, I would also have to call quibble on how difficult you seem to believe gamebuilding really is.
The more options a system has, the more abusable it is. A wizard could spend zero points on BAB and a minimum on feats, then only choose spells without attack rolls. Other classes would need to spread points around.
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Having advised on and play tested several systems, I would also have to call quibble on how difficult you seem to believe gamebuilding really is.
I build games, Daw. Game design is a deceptively challenging mixture of art and science. It's like writing a novel; it seems easy to put words on paper, but there's an incredible amount of skills needed to create a novel such as pacing, plot structure, character development, and the fortitude to write multiple drafts of a 200-page story. You can't just throw a bunch of rules together and hope it turns into a competent game, just as you can't just throw a bunch of words on a few pages and make a coherent plot. Even professional game designers tried this with mixed success.
Making games is hard.
I have to agree with Cyrad, im a game developer for an independent company amd its super tough. Im also developing my own table top rpg right now and im barley through any of it and ive been working on trying to get a cohesive rule set together for almost a year