Let's say I wanted to take Weapon specialization.
Could I only take it at level 6 or 9, but not as part of normal feats from advancement?
According to the rules it would seem I can only take fighter feats and full bab feats according to my Warpriest level when I'm taking a bonus feat at 3-6-9, etc. is that correct?
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Right.
Bonus Feats
At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and Hit Dice) for the purpose of qualifying for these feats.
Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
There's no general rule, just the one under the Bonus Feats class feature, which says 'these feats' repeatedly. The human alternate favored class bonus may or may not get the same benefit - 'Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.' could be read as part of the Bonus Feats class feature or not.
Warpriest only counts as full BAB and fighter for bonus feats.
If the FCB bonus combat feats are part of the Bonus Feats class feature then that FCB can first be taken at 3rd level and you get feats from it at levels 8, 14 & 20. If not then you can start taking it at first level and you get feats from it at 6, 12 & 18. People seem to prefer early feats over feats with easier prereqs and 'not part of the class feature' is a more popular interpretation.
If the FCB bonus combat feats are part of the Bonus Feats class feature then that FCB can first be taken at 3rd level and you get feats from it at levels 8, 14 & 20. If not then you can start taking it at first level and you get feats from it at 6, 12 & 18. People seem to prefer early feats over feats with easier prereqs and 'not part of the class feature' is a more popular interpretation.
According to what I've read you get at level 6 a bonus feat from Warpriest.
If the FCB bonus combat feats are part of the Bonus Feats class feature then that FCB can first be taken at 3rd level and you get feats from it at levels 8, 14 & 20. If not then you can start taking it at first level and you get feats from it at 6, 12 & 18. People seem to prefer early feats over feats with easier prereqs and 'not part of the class feature' is a more popular interpretation.According to what I've read you get at level 6 a bonus feat from Warpriest.
You do. If you get another at 6 with the human Favored Class Bonus of 1/6 of a combat feat (the popular interpretation) then it can't be one with full BAB and fighter levels for the prerequisites, is my point.
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Yes, Rub-Eta you are missing that you don't get Bonus Feat class feature until 3rd.
So there is no way you can get 1/6 of something you don't have until you have it.
but does this fall under the "can a level 1 ranger use a CLW wand without use magic device" ruling, where it is on their spell list, even if they don't have spell-casting yet?
I think I'm just gonna go Inquisitor with Friendly Fire Maneuvers and avoid Soft Cover from allies.
I'm also thinking on going Sanctified Slayer because I get permanent Studied Target, unlike Judgment that works only 1 time a day.
Plus at level 9 I can take Extra Slayer Talent and grab IPS.
Yes, Rub-Eta you are missing that you don't get Bonus Feat class feature until 3rd.
So there is no way you can get 1/6 of something you don't have until you have it.
Yep, it's a rule but it doesn't make any sense. A monk can get an extra ki point from a trait at first but, for some unknown reason, can't take 1/4th of one from a FCB... It truly boggles the mind.
Ask your GM. I've never seen one that would deny something like this. It's nonsensical.
Yes, Rub-Eta you are missing that you don't get Bonus Feat class feature until 3rd.
So there is no way you can get 1/6 of something you don't have until you have it.
By that logic, the human Paladin FCB could never be selected.
So please give us a rules quote. I know of a dev post in a PFS specific thread that says "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have", but that can't apply to the human Warpriest FCB because you don't choose or even alter anything.
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They made a change to FCB in occult adventures to include this clause:
"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."
I don't like that they put this rule change into a newer product without putting out an errata or FAQ in older books such as the APG. I also think this rule is stupid; so there is that.
I suspect it is because they didn't see it as a rules change as much as a clarification. It never made sense to me that you could get MORE of something you don't have yet with a "level by level" ability. It did make sense that you could do so with a "1st level trait" ability. Yes some might consider them similar / same. I never did.
So please give us a rules quote. I know of a dev post in a PFS specific thread that says "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have", but that can't apply to the human Warpriest FCB because you don't choose or even alter anything.
In your quote he consulted the PDT to get confirmation that this isn't a new rule, just clarification because some folks assumed otherwise. I'm pretty confident that this "assumed otherwise" was the reason they added this to Occult Adventures.
As for how it applies to Warpriest FCB. Ask your GM.
If your GM believes the Warpriest FCB gives you more of the class feature "Bonus Feat" then you can't take until you get Bonus Feat class feature.
If your GM believes the FCB gives you a generic bonus feat, then you can start at 1st.
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Edit: Also on the mention of the human energy resistance paladin FCB. A ton of the rules are intended to be interpreted with "common sense" and on the forums we like to reject "common sense" because allegedly it isn't' common.
In this case, the common sense response is you get the energy resistance because the class feature doesn't grant it at any level so you can take it at first.
I'm asking if I'm missing something because I can't find that rule.Yep, it's a rule but it doesn't make any sense. A monk can get an extra ki point from a trait at first but, for some unknown reason, can't take 1/4th of one from a FCB... It truly boggles the mind.Yes, Rub-Eta you are missing that you don't get Bonus Feat class feature until 3rd.
So there is no way you can get 1/6 of something you don't have until you have it.
Honored Fist of the Society, Basic (Combat) trait; You increase your ki pool by 1 point.
So a trait I can take at 1st that adds to a pool I don't have yet.
Wayang Spellhunter :Select a spell of 3rd level or below.
So a trait can affect spells you don't have/know yet.
Beast of the Society: Whenever you use your wild shape class ability to turn yourself into a Small or Medium animal, the effect lasts for 2 hours per druid level instead of 1 hour per druid level.
So a trait can modify an ability you don't have yet.
Blessed Touch: You heal 1 additional point of damage when using lay on hands, channeling energy, or casting a cure spell.
So another trait can modify an ability, lay on hands, you don't have yet.
Nine-Tailed Scion: you can select Magical Tail as a bonus feat whenever your favored class grants you a bonus bloodline feat, combat feat, or metamagic feat instead of the normal type of feat granted by that class.
SO you can modify feat selections in an ability that you can't access yet [bloodline/metamagic feats].
Ethical Leader: You gain a +1 trait bonus to your Leadership score if all your cohorts and followers have an alignment within one step of your alignment.
So you can modify a feat you can't have yet.
There's 6 examples with a few minutes looking. So it's not spelled out in a rule but it's just DONE with the traits. They DO NOT CARE if you have abilities or not, they can change, modify or add to them. This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.
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This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.
Because traits are only at character creation (ignoring things like additional trait feat) and FCB is a "level by level" build tool.
You can't take feats with BAB+4 at 1st, so it wouldn't make any sense rules wise to allow FCB to be taken before you have the features.
Huh....
So, could a monk that took Honored Fist of the Society actually take the extra Ki FCB, as they now technically have Ki? Even though they can't use it until level 4.
This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.Because traits are only at character creation (ignoring things like additional trait feat) and FCB is a "level by level" build tool.
You can't take feats with BAB+4 at 1st, so it wouldn't make any sense rules wise to allow FCB to be taken before you have the features.
Taken at character creation is kind of the point. It makes JUST as much sense to take a trait at first that can modify a feat that has a 7th level requirement, as it does take part of a feat with a BAB+4 at first. Both could be taken before they can be used and it makes MORE sense with a FCB because you can reach that +4 by the time can afford the whole thing while the trait will ALWAYS be out of reach.
So I stand by my statement: "This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't."
Huh....
So, could a monk that took Honored Fist of the Society actually take the extra Ki FCB, as they now technically have Ki? Even though they can't use it until level 4.
They technically don't have a ki pool to add to. As such, it's a no go.
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Yes, Rub-Eta you are missing that you don't get Bonus Feat class feature until 3rd.
So there is no way you can get 1/6 of something you don't have until you have it.By that logic, the human Paladin FCB could never be selected.
So please give us a rules quote. I know of a dev post in a PFS specific thread that says "when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have", but that can't apply to the human Warpriest FCB because you don't choose or even alter anything.
The human paladin FCB is not linked to a class ability. So you can take it at first level. It is different than one that does link to a class ability which is restricted till you have the ability.
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This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.Because traits are only at character creation (ignoring things like additional trait feat) and FCB is a "level by level" build tool.
You can't take feats with BAB+4 at 1st, so it wouldn't make any sense rules wise to allow FCB to be taken before you have the features.
Taken at character creation is kind of the point. It makes JUST as much sense to take a trait at first that can modify a feat that has a 7th level requirement, as it does take part of a feat with a BAB+4 at first. Both could be taken before they can be used and it makes MORE sense with a FCB because you can reach that +4 by the time can afford the whole thing while the trait will ALWAYS be out of reach.
So I stand by my statement: "This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't."
They technically don't have a ki pool to add to. As such, it's a no go.Huh....
So, could a monk that took Honored Fist of the Society actually take the extra Ki FCB, as they now technically have Ki? Even though they can't use it until level 4.
It is not nonsensical. It was put in for balance reasons. And as such it makes sense.
It is not nonsensical. It was put in for balance reasons. And as such it makes sense.
If it's unbalanced for a monk to start getting an extra ki point before they get a ki pool with FCB then it surely must be unbalance for a trait to do so. However, one seemingly is and the other isn't. That is nonsensical and not consistent no matter how you spin it.
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If it's unbalanced for a monk to start getting an extra ki point before they get a ki pool with FCB then it surely must be unbalance for a trait to do so. However, one seemingly is and the other isn't. That is nonsensical and not consistent no matter how you spin it.
It is not nonsensical. It was put in for balance reasons. And as such it makes sense.
It is consistent. You can only choose traits at first level(normally). And you can only choose it once and you give up other traits for it. Traits are fundamentally different from FCBs.
But, in the end, the balance is not there for every instance of FCBs. It is there because certain FCBs were causing problems. This redresses the issue with those. Again, this is not nonsensical. Just because you personally don't agree with the decision does not mean the people who put it into place did so arbitrarily and without thought.
I would prefer that you could take FCBs before you got the ability too. But I understand their reason.
So a human warpriest can't take "Gain 1/6 of a bonus combat feat" favored class bonus before level 3, because they don't have the "bonus feat" class feature yet?
Can a human kineticist take the "Gain 1/6 of an Extra Wild Talent feat" before they are even eligible to take that feat (at level 6)?
It seems to me like those two FCBs should probably work the same way.
"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."
Note that this rule only counts for FCB that modify a class feature. Gaining another bonus feat does not modify the bonus feat class feature. But gaining another ki point would modify the Ki Pool class feature.
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Gain 1/6 of a bonus combat feat does not modify a class feature. Even if that class has bonus feats. You are merely gaining a bonus feat. I'm fairly certain there is a class that gets this fcb without the class having the bonus feat class feature.
Gain 1/6 of an Extra Wild Talent feat does not modify a class feature. It is merely a bonus feat. It does not grant you the ability to gain a feat that you do not qualify for, though. Luckily you only need 6 levels in kineticist to qualify and that's how many levels you'd need to have enough FCBs to get it.
Add +1 to the paladin’s energy resistance to one kind of energy (maximum +10). Does not modify a class feature.
Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat, though, does seem to imply that it refers to the class feature with its use of the word new. Maybe it doesn't. But it does seem to. This is the Warpriest FCB in question.
It is there because certain FCBs were causing problems.
So this is the 'nerf crane wing because MoMS is an issue' type of fix... Yeah, nonsensical. If "certain FCBs" are an issue, then FIX those. Don't fix things that aren't broken while attempting to adjust something unrelated.
You can only choose traits at first level(normally].
Makes NO difference IMO. 1 ki from a trait is MORE than the 3/4ths a ki point you can get before you get pool.
Traits are fundamentally different from FCBs.
Only insomuch as one lets you get benefits before you get the ability and one doesn't. At 1st vs per level is a meaningless difference when talking about getting bonuses before the ability.
Again, this is not nonsensical. Just because you personally don't agree with the decision does not mean the people who put it into place did so arbitrarily and without thought.
Never said it was done "arbitrarily and without thought", just that it was "nonsensical" when compared to similar things like traits that are figured out the EXACT opposite way. One way +1 ki ok and the other +1/4th ki bad... Nonsensical. Not consistent. Done with a hammer when a scalpel could be used. Nerf hammered. Take your pick on how you want to look at it: "I stand by my statement: "This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.""
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It is there because certain FCBs were causing problems.So this is the 'nerf crane wing because MoMS is an issue' type of fix... Yeah, nonsensical. If "certain FCBs" are an issue, then FIX those. Don't fix things that aren't broken while attempting to adjust something unrelated.
You can only choose traits at first level(normally].Makes NO difference IMO. 1 ki from a trait is MORE than the 3/4ths a ki point you can get before you get pool.
Traits are fundamentally different from FCBs.Only insomuch as one lets you get benefits before you get the ability and one doesn't. At 1st vs per level is a meaningless difference when talking about getting bonuses before the ability.
Again, this is not nonsensical. Just because you personally don't agree with the decision does not mean the people who put it into place did so arbitrarily and without thought.Never said it was done "arbitrarily and without thought", just that it was "nonsensical" when compared to similar things like traits that are figured out the EXACT opposite way. One way +1 ki ok and the other +1/4th ki bad... Nonsensical. Not consistent. Done with a hammer when a scalpel could be used. Nerf hammered. Take your pick on how you want to look at it: "I stand by my statement: "This makes the FCB ruling nonsensical IMO. Why would FCB's care when traits clearly don't.""
Nonsensical, in a nonsense way.
'Sense: a sane and realistic attitude to situations and problems.''Nonsense: spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense.'
'Meaning: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action.'
'Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."
'Reason: a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.'
'Whim: a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.'
Yes, when you say something is nonsensical you say that it is without rational thought and without any reason. Without thought and arbitrary.
Nonsensical: without a sane or realistic attitude to situations. +1ki is fine but 1/4th ki isn't. Yep, that fits.
Arbitrary: without reason. An unreasonable thought is still a reason/thought. If it doesn't make sense to me, it's nonsensical. Someone can put a lot of time and effort into something and still have it not make sense.
So, no, I never said "arbitrary or without thought". Having a justification doesn't mean your justification is good or logical. Having an explanation doesn't mean it makes sense. A cause isn't always just.
PS: Can we move off of this?
#1 There is LITERALLY nothing you could say to convince me that the way FCB work makes the least bit of sense. Assuming there are reasons for the way it works, IMO it wasn't done the right way: You should fix the cause of a problem, certain FCB, and not 'fix' things that aren't broken, like 1/4th ki when 1 ki ok. I suspect they did the quick/easy 'hammer it all' fix over the precise and targeted approach of picking out the problem children FCB's and altering THEM: Fix problems like MoMS FIRST before things that are blown out of proportions because of the real issue.
#2 this is off topic and we shouldn't fill this thread up any more. Feel free to make a thread about this and I'll reply there.
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Every time this comes up, it seems like the two camps retreat to "there is literally nothing to say to bridge the gap".
Fine.
I don't think there is any problem FCB as much as it was said some were interpreting it incorrectly, so a fix was made.
As to the OP:
It isn't known whether or not the warpriest FCB refers to the class feature (and thus you get your first bonus feat at 9th and start taking it at 3rd) or it refers to normal character level feats (thus start at 1st and get first at 6th.)
So ask your GM.
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The half orc 20th gunslinger at 20th example is pretty well discussed in these type of threads. I'm unaware of the dwarf rogue trap sense example? Quote?
In any event, one potential error in an example doesn't mean they changed stances after publication, as all of these are possible:
* They did change stance after publication.
* They example is simply an error.
* They changed stance during development.
All we know for sure now (because it has been said) is that they detected some people being of a different kind than then and course corrected.
A few more odd examples if this was always the way it was.
Rogue: Add +1 to the number of times per day the rogue can cast a cantrip or 1st-level spell gained from the minor magic or major magic talent. The number of times this bonus is selected for the major magic talent cannot exceed the number of times it is selected for the minor magic talent. The rogue must possess the associated rogue talent to select these options. Here we see the Rogue as specifically being called out to need to feature in question as opposed to the other options presented.
Monk: Add +1 to the monk's Acrobatics check bonus gained by spending a point from his ki pool. A monk must be at least 5th level to select this benefit. Gnome monks had to wait to get high jump before improving it once again unlike every other listing on the page.
These are the only 2 out of the core races section to have specific call outs to when they can be taken or that they need the class feature to be taken. This is in the rules text which show an intent that it wasn't always meant to be this way.
Gonna throw a FAQ hit up I agree the quoted rogue text makes it a bit more ambiguous.
Edit: From the APG page of the PRD.
Pistol whip is not accessible till 3rd level.
Those are the examples from the last thread I was in I could find quickly.
Gonna throw a FAQ hit up I agree the quoted rogue text makes it a bit more ambiguous.
Edit: From the APG page of the PRD.
Those are the examples from the last thread I was in I could find quickly.
The ARG also says:
Gunslinger: Add a +1/3 bonus on attack rolls when using the pistol whip deed.
I.e., in one place both attack rolls and damage are increased for pistol whip, and in another the fcb only helps with attack rolls.
I'm not making an argument or taking a position, I just wanted to point out this inconcistency in case anyone is interested.
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Having one place say one thing and another say something different is a common error in editing.
I.e. The whole "text vs table" clarification.
Having one rule state the obvious and another omit the obvious also happens.
I.e. "A rogue must possess the associated talent" doesn't prove that is a deviation for norm.
Also, the monk must be 5th level is irrelevant to this discussion. A monk gets ki pool at 4th, so the delay to 5th isn't design.
Thanks Blymurkla, I had not noticed they are different. So that is strong hint the example was early development before much of rules were written. So any hints as to how the rules function that we take from the example can be taken with the knowledge they don't match the final version.
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Basically, the design intent changed, because of some troublesome interactions. It is clear from official examples that at one point you were intended to be able to advance a FCB before you received the targeted class ability. But then there was a FAQ that changed the intent. And now there is confirming text in a newer publication, that also supports this limitation. So the current intent is clear, but it is not the original intent, and that has caused confusions.
But I still don't think that a FCB bonus combat feat modifies the bonus combat feat class ability. The functioning of the class ability is not changed in any way by gaining a new combat feat, so the ability is not modified.
Basically, the design intent changed, because of some troublesome interactions. It is clear from official examples that at one point you were intended to be able to advance a FCB before you received the targeted class ability. But then there was a FAQ that changed the intent. And now there is confirming text in a newer publication, that also supports this limitation. So the current intent is clear, but it is not the original intent, and that has caused confusions.
But I still don't think that a FCB bonus combat feat modifies the bonus combat feat class ability. The functioning of the class ability is not changed in any way by gaining a new combat feat, so the ability is not modified.
Which is fine however it does need to be stated that it's either or not both.
If it is a feat inline with the class feature then you do have to wait to start taking it, but all aspects of that class feature count.(Using Warpriest level as BAB/fighter level for prereqs.
If it is simply gaining an extra combat feat then the FCB can be gained at 1st level but cannot benefit from the class feature.
The strangest example is the Dwarf Rogue, who advances two different abilities with his FCB. One that's available and one that is not.
Add a +1/2 bonus on Disable Device checks regarding stone traps and a +1/2 bonus to trap sense regarding stone traps.
This is probably the greatest example there is that the original intent allowed you to take these before you had the ability.
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But I still don't think that a FCB bonus combat feat modifies the bonus combat feat class ability. The functioning of the class ability is not changed in any way by gaining a new combat feat, so the ability is not modified.
You not thinking is allowed. Others do. So we have two thoughts regarding the meaning of the Warpriest FCB and nothing in the rules to prove which is correct. Hence your first feat is at 6th or 9th depending on which is correct and the available feats to choose from change based on the answer.
Add a +1/2 bonus on Disable Device checks regarding stone traps and a +1/2 bonus to trap sense regarding stone traps.This is probably the greatest example there is that the original intent allowed you to take these before you had the ability.
Or this could be a special allowance by virtue of some part of it working at every level, so the whole works at every level. Similar to how the traits that choose a spell level 3 or lower work at level 1. A level 3 spell can't be memorized by a level 1, but they can pick it for the trait because it is mentioned.
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In summary, there isn't some overarching "cosmic congruence" in the rules. They are written by different people at different times. Some are reviewed and edited by different people. Some times the PDT manages the rules.
The net effect is the is never going to be completely matching rules, such that you read information from tea leaves of various examples to know the exact precise meaning of everything.