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Hi.I want to play Hunter .I already have a level 2 archer hunter but after realizing 3/4 bab is terrible for archer feats.I decided to make a melee hunter instead.But now ı am not sure what to do with her.It seems like ı want combat reflexes weapon finesee and one dex to damage feat.After that ı am not sure what to pick.Maybe stand still but ı am not sure.I may pick that one aoo teamwork feat that triggers when you or your companion crits.Please help.
My stats
Str:10
Dex:18
Con:12
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:8
Race:Human.
Int is for skill points.I love skill points.I dont want it reduced.
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Wild Child Brawler 1/Hunter 10
Non-Dumpy:
Str: 17, Dex: 14, COn: 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Dumpy:
Str: 19, Dex: 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wisdom 13, Cha: 7
Race Human
Feats:
Human: Power attack
1 Hd: Combat expertise
3 HD: Combat Reflexes
3 HD Outflank
4 HD (Bonus Teamwork) Pack Flanking
5 HD: Broken Wing Gambit
7 HD:
7 HD (Bonus Teamwork):Paired Opportunist
9 HD:
10 HD (Bonus Teamwork):
11 HD:
Good Teamwork Feats: Coordinated Maneuvers, Tandem trip (if your tripping is in your Build)
Good regular Feats: Iron Will, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Viscous stomp (if you or the Companion is tripping focused), Dirty Trick Line
The Wild child dip is strictly for the ability to avoid 13 INT, Imporved unarmed strike, and Martial Flexibility. MF is a great ability since Teamwork feats are combat feats. Allows you to on the fly answer problems. Miss chance? Blind-Fight, Need to escape? Escape Route...see how it gives you nothing but options.
Use a reach weapon.
Honestly you are right about the Archery. But there IS the option to play a Caster Hunter that is not discussed. Free Precise shot and spells like Rime intensified Snowballs can really do something along with a fully powered Animal Companion you will have respectable damage. IDK about PFS if they have guided weapons but A guided weapon then kicks your Combat abilities into functioning.
I thought reach weapons were terrible.And İsnt combat man's better at full bab classes?
Outflank pretty much shores up your BaB with most martial classes and the dip I provided defiantly helps as well.
Reach weapons are great. Dunno where you got that Idea but With a reach weapon + Packflanking + Outflank + Animal Companion with reach you can control a vast majority of the field of combat. The enemies will find it hard to even move without being killed or severely punished for doing so. Since the dip I provided includes Improved Unarmed strike you can just punch people who make it into your reach. But once the build is up and going a single Provoked AoO turns on the Blender and most stuff is chopped up from AoO triggers. Outflank + Paired Opportunist gives you +8 on your AoO without including Str and BaB and Magical weapons.
As for Combat maneuvers you can trip, sunder or Disarm in place of any attack. Including AoO. Add in that +8 I talked about and the Bonuses from the other feats...you are doing extremely well in the CM department.
The only archery feat that is locked behind a BAB gate that you really need to worry about it Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot. And there are ways to simulate improved precise shot, although I can't remember off the top of my head.
That said, the build Louise is providing is very solid.
Hunter's combo better as melee anyways since their pet (and it sharing all your teamwork feats) is their biggest class feature, and working towards a melee synergy is much more effective than trying to use a bow. Mostly because there aren't many very good ranged teamwork feats. And even fewer that would work with animal companions.
The only archery feat that is locked behind a BAB gate that you really need to worry about it Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot. And there are ways to simulate improved precise shot, although I can't remember off the top of my head.
That said, the build Louise is providing is very solid.
Hunter's combo better as melee anyways since their pet (and it sharing all your teamwork feats) is their biggest class feature, and working towards a melee synergy is much more effective than trying to use a bow. Mostly because there aren't many very good ranged teamwork feats. And even fewer that would work with animal companions.
Thanks Claxon. I am enjoying the build as I am playing one super similiar it right now in a Home Brew campaign and we just reached Level 4. I went Verminous hunter and Eye for Talent +2 int to get my Giant Mantis out of Mindless. The mantis is a Grapple bug with Bleed tagged on to the grab. Only issues I have is Luck. Which no player can account for. I've had a few poor rolls but nothing life threatening. Just a missed attack here or there or a Few unlucky 1s. But as long as I'm rolling well the Build pretty much rips through fights thanks to Pack Flanking and Martial Flexibility.
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For my own hunter (actually Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, but the build progression is the same), I went strength based with an animal that gets multiple attacks. The plan is "trip and rip" - the half-orc trips the enemy, then the deinonychus rips them apart with a full attack.
1 - Combat Expertise
3 - Pack Flanking
3 - Precise Strike
5 - Improved Trip
Of course, feat prerequisites required me to start with 13s in both int and dex to get those feats, so I had to dump charisma hard and settle for a slightly lower starting strength than I would have liked, but it's worth it. All those extra d6s added to damage from Precise Strike is nice, and tripping at level 5 makes the dino hit more often.
Probably not the most uber-optimized build in the world, but I do pretty good damage this way.
For my own hunter (actually Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, but the build progression is the same), I went strength based with an animal that gets multiple attacks. The plan is "trip and rip" - the half-orc trips the enemy, then the deinonychus rips them apart with a full attack.
1 - Combat Expertise
3 - Pack Flanking
3 - Precise Strike
5 - Improved TripOf course, feat prerequisites required me to start with 13s in both int and dex to get those feats, so I had to dump charisma hard and settle for a slightly lower starting strength than I would have liked, but it's worth it. All those extra d6s added to damage from Precise Strike is nice, and tripping at level 5 makes the dino hit more often.
Probably not the most uber-optimized build in the world, but I do pretty good damage this way.
Precise Strike is Great on Multi-attack Animal Companions like the Deinonychus. I tend to favor critters with Grab or Trip so they are limited to 1-2 attacks and the payoff is much less than other ACs with Pounce and multiple attacks.
It is still a good pick up either way and it slipped my mind when I originally posted. Add it to the list or throw it in where I left stuff blank. I tried to give a basic shell that will be good regardless what pet your using.
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Planar focus is a nice little feat that will net you a lot of extra damage and a lot of extra utility
Pack flanking will make you hit a lot and really make use of that outflank bonus feat.
And make sure to mount your beast and go for the feat: escape route.
Hunters are one of the strongest melee classes out there imo
Planar focus is a nice little feat that will net you a lot of extra damage and a lot of extra utility
Pack flanking will make you hit a lot and really make use of that outflank bonus feat.
And make sure to mount your beast and go for the feat: escape route.
Hunters are one of the strongest melee classes out there imo
They are up there due to 6th Level spell casting but My money is always on the Bloodrager with Access to Primalist Archetype or the Hexcrafter Magus. But hunter is not far behind they just are a bit squishy once the Pet is out of the way and dealt with.
Outflank has a BAB +4 requirement. How are you taking it at 3rd?
Hunter gets it for free at level 2 without meeting Pre-reqs and it is given to the companion freely as well.
In my build cause Level 1 is Wild Child Brawler they would get it at Level 3.
I've seen Seize the Moment thrown in as well on a hunter build with combat reflexes AoOs all over the place.
It typically is on my builds but for PFS qualifying for the pre-req is at level 10-11 thus making it hard to fit into PFS builds. But yes with a Improved critical 15-20 crit weapon it is a nice addition.
If you go Non dumpy stat buy you still get 7 skill points as a Human. Sure 5 points into bluff for pre-reqs. But still a good amount of skills. Some of the other skills like climb and swim are only worth a point or 2 (or ignored and spell replaces). Or depending on AC you can martial flexibility undersized mount and fly up on your mount negating some climbs all together. Really versitel class.
That's the thing with a Hunter they get spells and spells can help cover skills certain types or give you enough bonuses to do it untrained.
With Pack Flanking, if your build can find the room, the Dirty Fighting feat makes maneuver builds a lot easier to pull off - or even just a trick to keep in your back pocket for when you need it.
I tend to martial flexibility that feat when I need it. Martial Flexibility is so freaking good as there are sooooo many options.
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I made a Dwarfen Melee Hunter.
4 Lvls Hunter and at 5th LvL 1 LvL Brawler (Wild Child).
This way I got Combat Expertise without Int (not really Interresting for you) but the martial Flexibility like Bishop said extremely good cause when you choose at Teamwork feat (for example Precise strike as a move action!) it will be automatically shared with your companion!
And this Way you can change your Precise Strike Teamwork Feat for Pack Flanking and only use PS when its truly needed.
This is an extremely effective combination for evrey Hunter Build.
I made a Dwarfen Melee Hunter.
4 Lvls Hunter and at 5th LvL 1 LvL Brawler (Wild Child).This way I got Combat Expertise without Int (not really Interresting for you) but the martial Flexibility like Bishop said extremely good cause when you choose at Teamwork feat (for example Precise strike as a move action!) it will be automatically shared with your companion!
This is an extremely effective combination for evrey Hunter Build.
Yes. Teamwork Feats are Combat Feats.
Ontop of the Huge List of Combat feats that is availible. Plenty of situational feats that you typically would not take but With MF you can get them as a move action for a minute at a time.
A funny feat I'm looking forward to using is Stunning Interuption. When the situation presents itself I can not wait to break through a door/wall with my adamantine weapon and scare the living shit out of people.
A few feats I've used already:
Undersized mount (My Mantis has a fly AND climb speed. 1 minute of flight can save your life or give you scouting advantage.)
Blind Fight- Cause 50% miss chances suck when you are light gibed.
Dirty Fighting- Cause Manuevers are nice I just hate specializing in them.
Cleave- I will never take this feat but it is quiet fun to pick up when stuff lines up for you. Very nice grab pre level 6.
Deadly Aim- I carry a bow and sling....but I do not invest feats...but if I need to shoot at something I can at least add some minor damage.
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Melee hunters are cool. So cool that I have two. Well, one of them isn't a hunter yet but he will be soon. He starts as a Barbarian.
Tooth&Claw is a divine verminous hunter with a giant mantis companion. He's just level 3 at the moment. He uses a bardiche, and his companion grabs stuff. At higher levels he will switch to using twin sawtooth sabres. Key elements of the build are Outflank, Deception subdomain abilities and spells (sudden shift and mirror image). I wouldn't say he's optimised for damage, but he's a lot of fun to play.
Kiboko, on the other hand, will do big damage. He starts as a Barbarian (scarred rager, although I have played him as a mad dog at level 1). Then he goes into hunter. He will use Amplified Rage with Outflank and Pack Flanking. He'll use Strong Jaw, Greater Magic Fang and Share Shape. With the Ferocious Beast rage power, there will be two large raging hippos. There are a few other tricks to this character, but basically it's two large raging hippos!
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İt seems like no one likes dex over str for hunters.Shame though.By by skill points :SI like the idea of this type of build for dex hunters, particularly this build.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3xl61z/build_math_improved _disarm_partner/
I don't know if it really holds to strength hunters up when dissected but it seems cool as hell, maybe dipping into swashbuckler for opportune parry & riposte or disrupting counter.
Doesn't hold up well on the damage end compared to the Str guy. Str guy can swing a scimitar or rapier too or the Reach 18-20 (15-20) critical weapon. Power attack scales better than Piranha Strike. You are not taxed on Weapon Finesse and the Dex to damage feat. So the Str guy is 2 feats ahead of you and the build is working out the gate.
Any idea on how TWF works with the Hunter?
Was thinking about making a DEX build Hunter using the TWF feat chain with high crit weapons. Then with Outflank, have my animal companion provide the damage with OAs.
When I ran some quick numbers, it looked doable. Now I'm wondering how it'll hold up in practice.
TWF is even worst than the single weapon Dex builds. Not only do you need weapon Finesse, but you need dex for TWF and STR for damage or another feat to use Dex to damage. You are at least 4 normal feats behind the STR Hunter. Your also almost strong armed into human at that point.
Non Full Bab, Normal feat starved...sure Teamwork feats are there but you get no more Normal feats than a cleric would be getting.
You can attempt it but do not blame the class for poorer performance when it does not work like a Ranger or other class designed to support TWF.
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It would not be the strongest build but it might function.
If you use outflank, paired opportunists, seize the moment and butterfly sting to generate aoo and pass on a crit to a big single attack AC. A T-rex, Ankylosaurus, Stegosaurus may work as you would also get multiple attempts at rider effects Grab, Stun, Trip. T-rex would be my choice here.
A human at level 5 has 4 feats:
TWF, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting
Two Teamwork feats
Outflank, Paired opportunist
Wasn't planning on having a high STR. Was thinking a STR 12 and that was more for carrying stuff.
Wanted the extra attacks for more chances of crits. Which ment more OA for my pet. Pet would be the damage dealer.
Down the road, probably level 8 or 9, after getting weapons enchanted with Keen, I'd enchant with Agile.
Well I know the OP wanted more optimal damage.
The issues I see with the TWF is:
+1 Keen Agile weapon is 16,000gp...x2 is 32,000gp. Your not getting that till roughly level 10 and only if the DM allows open markets and sticks to WBL. So your not fully up and running till Mid to late game while the STR guy is Up and running Level 3.
Next with a 12 Str you have no PA or other damage boosters. No ability for Two weapon Rend. Which is better than greater 2 weapon fighting. But if the pet is the damage dealer then that is fine I guess. I just know the damage of 2 built for damage outweighs the damage of 1 and a Half. So Optimal it is not even registering. Will it Function..maybe..will it be good probably not.
Last thing I will have to look to see if there is any synergy with Butterfly sting and Seize the moment. I am not 100% of the wording and can't dig it up till later. But I sure will look into it if there is any synergy there or if they do not have any. The way I thinking is that Butterfly Sting Procs and then that procs Seize the moment into a Critical every time on the person's turn running BS.
(This is for PFS)
Money costs - think that's my biggest worry. Equipping and enchanting two weapons and a pet will be lots of gold.
That is why I made it the first thing in my reply under my concerns.
Tho if Guided was PFS you could get away with a Caster hunter using a Guided weapon. Only need moderate dex and Wisdom for that style of build. Choosing Precise Shot as your Level 2 Freebie. Rime Snowballs, flurry of Snowballs, Ice Slick, Ice Spears.
Lots of Conjuration spells to control battlefields with as well.
I would play it in a home game when full casters are banned. I have seen many games where they only allow 6th level casters max.
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I don't even know if seize the moment and outflank stack. Both trigger off a crit and give an aoo. I see it working like so:
Crit > Confirm > butterfly sting passes on > Outflank Aoo (which is a crit) > paired opportunist (hunter makes an aoo) > animal companion makes an aoo.
Animal companions turn.
I also agree that equipment is the limiting factor. 2 keen kukri at level 7 may be doable.
Yes I am aware of the Confirm and Score terminology being equal.
When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
When an ally who also has this feat confirms a critical hit against an opponent that you also threaten, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
Looking at how they are written I would have to go with Grandlounge on this:
Critical Threat Happens> Critical is Confirmed>Seize the Moment Procs from Confirmation/Butterfly and the AC AoO For Critical Damage> Paired Opportunist then takes Place from the PC for the AC AoO from Seize the Moment. Ends the chain effect and back to normal attacks/turn.
Seize the Moment and Paired Opportunists definitely stacked.
I thought the initial question (leaving Butterfly sting out of it) was whether Seize the Moment and Outflank stack. I say no, they're both AoOs triggering from the same event (score/confirm a critical.)
Outflank(or Seize)+Butterfly Sting is mostly just a gut feeling that Butterfly Sting was meant to stop any effects from the critical. This sort of reading of the Confirm=Score rule would mean that say, Stunning Critical would still stun the target when the critical confirms, even though you're "forgoing the effects of your crit." You'd have to have a pretty narrow reading to allow Outflank to trigger, but not Stunning Critical.
Hmm first pass I was inclined to think Outflank would work, but your Stunning Critical argument makes a lot of sense, and I think you're right.