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Or we could keep the people who are actual heroes and stop pandering to nazis.Uh, I'm not quite sure what you mean with that. Because I don't see that happen in any way. Are we talking about Secret Empire (because that's not what I'd call pandering)?
Yes, making Captain America a Nazi, letting him wield Mjolnir, stating that Nazis were supposed to have won WW2, and many other things done there is pandering to Nazis.
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Rysky, I don't want to get this thread killed for getting to much into politics, so I'll answer via PM. Let's just say, that I heavily disagree with that what Nick Spencer is doing has any similarities with pandering to right-wingers. To me it's basically the direct opposite.
Rysky, I don't want to get this thread killed for getting to much into politics, so I'll answer via PM. Let's just say, that I heavily disagree with that what Nick Spencer is doing has any similarities with pandering to right-wingers. To me it's basically the direct opposite.
Agreed. It's DEFINITELY the opposite if you're reading the books AT ALL.
These second rate knockoff heroes are not interesting and the pandering has to stop.
Elucidate, please.
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I really don't see how anything that's been done can be read the way you're reading it. Making Captain America a nazi, a superhero invented by a JEWISH writer, and saying they should have won, even if it's redone or changed later, isn't biting social commentary.
There's gravitas to certain characters, Captain America in particular, he doesn't reflect America as is, he reflects what America should be, strive to be, he's hope and goodness. He's not a nazi, he should never have been made a nazi. The only commentary coming from these decisions is someone trying justify Nazis, or just doign it for shock value, which still ties into the former.
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I really don't see how anything that's been done can be read the way you're reading it. Making Captain America a nazi, a superhero invented by a JEWISH writer, and saying they should have won, even if it's redone or changed later, isn't biting social commentary.
There's gravitas to certain characters, Captain America in particular, he doesn't reflect America as is, he reflects what America should be, strive to be, he's hope and goodness. He's not a nazi, he should never have been made a nazi. The only commentary coming from these decisions is someone trying justify Nazis, or just doign it for shock value, which still ties into the former.
That's a pretty simplistic and basic view if that's the only thing that you're taking from the story.
And all the people being personally offended that a character created by a JEWISH writer should never be a Nazi apparently missed the part where that same JEWISH writer DID THE EXACT SAME THING over 40 years ago in Tales of Suspense #67. As a Captain America fan (or even just having the ability to Google it) you SHOULD know that.
But whatever to each his/her own. If you legitimately think that Marvel has some pro-Nazi agenda and are angry about that I don't know what to tell you.
*Looks over at Steve Bannon, Steven Miller and Sebastian Gorka all of whom are advisors in the White House...*
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*looks up #67*
That has him very obviously revealed to the readers from the get go being brainwashed and "cured" in the very next issue, which is very different than what's going on here, with Nazi's winning being "correct", with Captain Hydra being worthy and noble enough to wield Mjolnir.
Funny that you should mention those since Marvel's CEO donated heavily to Trump's campaign and the two are on good terms.
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and saying they should have won
Which, to my knowledge, is not true. In the comics, there actually was a discussion about if Hydra should collaborate with the Nazis at all. Some warned against it, the others thought they could use the Nazis to advance their own agenda and then remove them from the picture. But I can't remember anyone endorsing the Nazis (apart from the Red Skull, perhaps).
Interestingly enough, while reading up on that topic, I came about an old Cap America issue, where Cap positions himself between a Nazi and someone, who attacks this nazi. He chastizes the nazi for his position, and the other guy for resorting to violence. Just to get physically attacked from both sides resultingly.
Seems like Nick Spencer could tell a tale or two about that from his own experience.
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They still worked with them, are rooted in them.
And reading that article, although I do like in the comic Captain calls out and tears down the neo-nazi and his beliefs rather than coddling him I do not stand by that fact that protester is also somehow wrong for standing up to hate speech. Free speach is not some universal shield, some untouchable holiest of holies, that you can stand behind and say what whatever you want, especially when hate speech gets involved. Calling out and standing up to bigots and hate speech does not make you as bad as them, no where even close.
I find the author's comment that you shouldn't counter "despicable"ness, as he puts, with violence, as too aloof and really undermining how monstrous and horrific these bigoted ideologies are. You should not get a free pass to be protected for calling on the genocide of an entire people just because of their ethnicity, or religion, or sexuality.
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*looks up #67*
That has him very obviously revealed to the readers from the get go being brainwashed and "cured" in the very next issue, which is very different than what's going on here, with Nazi's winning being "correct", with Captain Hydra being worthy and noble enough to wield Mjolnir.
Funny that you should mention those since Marvel's CEO donated heavily to Trump's campaign and the two are on good terms.
Ah yes I thought that you'd hand wave the point by saying that it was only one issue and that he was clearly brainwashed. It in no way changes the point that your effrontery at this character created by Jewish writers being a Nazi rings hollow though.
If you've been reading the what's been going on since STANDOFF , it's also clear that when Kobik the Cosmic Cube (again anyone familiar with Cap's history knows that there have been multiple times where the Cube has been used to re-write reality, most notably during Mark Waid's run in the 90's and to a lesser extent in the WINTER SOLDIER part Brubaker's run) returned Steve to his youthful Super-Serum filled self that something was WRONG.
It's a long form variation of a story that's been told before and the Red Skull and Hydra are at the center of it. And as to your insistence that this is some sort of pro nazi agenda? It youre reading the books, especially this most recent issue of Captain America which focuses on how propaganda works on Both sides, the people putting it forth and the people who accept it and those who don't? There's no rational person who's going to read that and say, the writer is supporting Nazism.
Also the very insinuation that because Isaac Perlmutter is friends with Trump somehow means that Marvel in it's entirely is some secret pro-nazi camp is not an entirely realistic view of how corporations and people work.
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that protester is also somehow wrong for standing up to hate speech.
Standing up to hate speech and punching someone are two very different things in my books. Charles Xavier and Eric Lensherr both were standing up to hate speech regarding mutants. Only one of them was very much into punching. The other one was the hero of the story.
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Again, there is a very BIG difference you are overlooking in your attempts to justify Spencer's writing. Issue 67 and 68 had Captain obviously brainwashed and then rescued, this was never "Oh no, Captain is a Nazi now, how will the world ever recover?", it was "Oh no, Captain's in trouble, we have to rescue him!"
Which is a world's difference than stating that Cpatain America is a full on NAzi and Nazi's should have won WW2, that's how things should have happened.
Not the whole company but it's a very good look at the direction it's being forced in. And then they come and say that diversity is the reason that their sales are declining?
I'm done arguing, there's no point seeing as how everyone is digging down in order to justify this nonsense.
Again, there is a very BIG difference you are overlooking in your attempts to justify Spencer's writing. Issue 67 and 68 had Captain obviously brainwashed and then rescued, this was never "Oh no, Captain is a Nazi now, how will the world ever recover?", it was "Oh no, Captain's in trouble, we have to rescue him!"
Which is a world's difference than stating that Cpatain America is a full on NAzi and Nazi's should have won WW2, that's how things should have happened.
Not the whole company but it's a very good look at the direction it's being forced in. And then they come and say that diversity is the reason that their sales are declining?
I'm done arguing, there's no point seeing as how everyone is digging down in order to justify this nonsense.
And again because you're' clearly not reading the story that you're talking about there are people going "Oh, No, Captain's in trouble we have to rescue him". I'm pretty sure that was part of that very first issue of SECRET EMPIRE. Black Widow wants him stopped and Hawkeye wants to save Cap. I mean they're pretty much told what's happened to Cap in the first issue and are split on how to proceed.
Also, I mean you're aware that Isaac Perlmutter is an Israeli-born Jew right?
It's also HILARIOUS that you think me, a black guy born in Brooklyn NY is actually arguing IN DEFENSE of Nazism. D00d, THIS
is the book I'm reading now. I'm ALL FOR PUNCHING NAZIS. Real ones though. Which is why I'm having a hard time understanding the vitriol for this story, Marvel, and the Nick Spencer.
There are real live Nazi's rising in this country now.
And you think THIS is their rallying cry?
D00d, they were looking to this country as a template for what they wanted to do since BEFORE the creation of CAPTAIN AMERICA.
Whatever though, like I said. To each his/her own.
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Would never have thought that THIS is the topic I would finally have to disagree with you, Rysky. Kinda discomforting, actually, as I'm used to nod to everything you say on theses boards.
I'm still not sure why you think that the events since Standoff are "how things should have happened". Just remember the opening scene of Secret Empire #1 in the class room. The teacher explains to her pupils, what the "Great Illusion" is, but from the pupils' reactions to the teacher's facial impressions, it seems clear that noone even believes it to be true.
Now Steve remembers this way because he got brainwashed by Kobik, but that doesn't constitute an actual Retcon of the Marvel Universe history.
And I simply can't find the slightest hint that Nick Specner or anyone else at Marvel actually thinks otherwise about it.
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Since you responded, it doesn't matter if they originally wanted to "save" Captain, since it's been revealed that no he's not brainwashed, he really is a nazi.
In regards to Isaac, so? He's still best friends with an fully support Trump. His actions are speaking louder than his religion and ethnicity.
Yes actually, White Nationalists are rallying behind this, since they finally have someone who is supposed to be a hero representing them. Dismissing this story as not related to real white-supremacists is severely underplaying how damaging and toxic it is.
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Would never have thought that THIS is the topic I would finally have to disagree with you, Rysky. Kinda discomforting, actually, as I'm used to nod to everything you say on theses boards.
I'm still not sure why you think that the events since Standoff are "how things should have happened". Just remember the opening scene of Secret Empire #1 in the class room. The teacher explains to her pupils, what the "Great Illusion" is, but from the pupils' reactions to the teacher's facial impressions, it seems clear that noone even believes it to be true.
Now Steve remembers this way because he got brainwashed by Kobik, but that doesn't constitute an actual Retcon of the Marvel Universe history.
And I simply can't find the slightest hint that Nick Specner or anyone else at Marvel actually thinks otherwise about it.
It's not just the fact that they're saying it in-comic, it's the fact that they're saying it. It doesn't matter if in the end it somehow gets reversed, they still took the stage and declared this.
As for Captain Hydra,
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Would never have thought that THIS is the topic I would finally have to disagree with you, Rysky. Kinda discomforting, actually, as I'm used to nod to everything you say on theses boards.
I'm sorry, but I can't stand people [Spencer] propping up bigoted ideologies under the guise of social commentary and people jumping to the call to defend and believe that.
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@Rysky: Heh, yeah, I get that, it's just that we have really different interpretations of what Spencer is doing here. Which makes me (and I guess, the same goes for Shin) feel like you're accusing me of something I'm not actually doing. Because (at least in my mind) I would never defend bigoted ideologies.
Well, to be honest, I get that accusation a lot, but normally it's from people on the right-wing side of the political spectrum when I stand up to their antisemitic, homophobic, sexist and other lies. ^^
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@Rysky: Heh, yeah, I get that, it's just that we have really different interpretations of what Spencer is doing here. Which makes me (and I guess, the same goes for Shin) feel like you're accusing me of something I'm not actually doing. Because (at least in my mind) I would never defend bigoted ideologies.
** spoiler omitted **
Well, to be honest, I get that accusation a lot, but normally it's from people on the right-wing side of the political spectrum when I stand up to their antisemitic, homophobic, sexist and other lies. ^^
I guess we do. Since I don't see what he's doing as a social commentary, and even if it was, he's failed miserably at it.
I really don't see how anything that's been done can be read the way you're reading it. Making Captain America a nazi, a superhero invented by a JEWISH writer, and saying they should have won, even if it's redone or changed later, isn't biting social commentary.
There's gravitas to certain characters, Captain America in particular, he doesn't reflect America as is, he reflects what America should be, strive to be, he's hope and goodness. He's not a nazi, he should never have been made a nazi. The only commentary coming from these decisions is someone trying justify Nazis, or just doign it for shock value, which still ties into the former.
you do realize this is a storyline that has been done dozens of times before with cap?
*looks up #67*
That has him very obviously revealed to the readers from the get go being brainwashed and "cured" in the very next issue, which is very different than what's going on here, with Nazi's winning being "correct", with Captain Hydra being worthy and noble enough to wield Mjolnir.
Funny that you should mention those since Marvel's CEO donated heavily to Trump's campaign and the two are on good terms.
oh? This last is news to me.
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
In regards to the story, with the changes to the serial with the late issues added and the amount of blowback and loss of sales Marvel have received because of it it does point towards things going differently than originally planned.
Is telling an evil/alternate version out of the norm? No. But this is different. It's what specific and very real evil that they're using.
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oh? This last is news to me.*looks up #67*
That has him very obviously revealed to the readers from the get go being brainwashed and "cured" in the very next issue, which is very different than what's going on here, with Nazi's winning being "correct", with Captain Hydra being worthy and noble enough to wield Mjolnir.
Funny that you should mention those since Marvel's CEO donated heavily to Trump's campaign and the two are on good terms.
Yep. Trump commented that Isaac is one of his go to guys outside of the Whitehouse to communicate with.
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Dozens? I'm only aware of the one Shin pointed out.
dream sequences, alternate realities, what ifs...caps been mind whammied into dozens of things that should not be. And that's without getting into clones, red skull doing creeper stuff, and the like. Its a common storyline. Cap always heals up, wakes up, or what have you.
What makes cap stand out to me is that he often realizes that there, but for the flip of a coin, goes he. He has had interesting soliloquys on that point before, almost all of them with well written gravitas. He points out that facism (or whatever were fighting this week) is incredibly seductive and that anyone can end up following that ideology- his way is likely harder because it calls for scrupulous behavior and defending the freedom to agree to disagree even when you want to punch someone in the face more often than not.
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Yep. Trump commented that Isaac is one of his go to guys outside of the Whitehouse to communicate with.oh? This last is news to me.*looks up #67*
That has him very obviously revealed to the readers from the get go being brainwashed and "cured" in the very next issue, which is very different than what's going on here, with Nazi's winning being "correct", with Captain Hydra being worthy and noble enough to wield Mjolnir.
Funny that you should mention those since Marvel's CEO donated heavily to Trump's campaign and the two are on good terms.
hmm.
Perhaps it's time to write a sternly worded letter.
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So I just read the new Cap America: Steve Rogers. Without giving to much away, it's basically an interview between journalist Sally Floyd and the Supreme Leader himself.
And given what we discussed the whole day long, it has convinced me even more that I'm right regarding Mr. Spencers stance on the whole topic. You might not like him being depicted as the big villain of this story. But there's no way you could spin that into Nick Spencer actually being on the side of the Nazis. Because while Steve Rogers utters all those lies about how beautiful his new world is, the imagery proves him otherwise simultaneously.
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So I just read the new Cap America: Steve Rogers. Without giving to much away, it's basically an interview between journalist Sally Floyd and the Supreme Leader himself.
And given what we discussed the whole day long, it has convinced me even more that I'm right regarding Mr. Spencers stance on the whole topic. You might not like him being depicted as the big villain of this story. But there's no way you could spin that into Nick Spencer actually being on the side of the Nazis. Because while Steve Rogers utters all those lies about how beautiful his new world is, the imagery proves him otherwise simultaneously.
How so? Without seeing it myself I can just assume he's talking about beauty while the panels (and artist) show tyranny, which to me and you would be horrific. To a white nationalist though it might be beautiful.
How so? Without seeing it myself I can just assume he's talking about beauty while the panels (and artist) show tyranny, which to me and you would be horrific. To a white nationalist though it might be beautiful.So I just read the new Cap America: Steve Rogers. Without giving to much away, it's basically an interview between journalist Sally Floyd and the Supreme Leader himself.
And given what we discussed the whole day long, it has convinced me even more that I'm right regarding Mr. Spencers stance on the whole topic. You might not like him being depicted as the big villain of this story. But there's no way you could spin that into Nick Spencer actually being on the side of the Nazis. Because while Steve Rogers utters all those lies about how beautiful his new world is, the imagery proves him otherwise simultaneously.
it displays the hypocrisy of the situation.
From what I have heard of the issue, it is reminiscent of the Nixon interviews. It COULD be titillating to the average white supremacist, but it more showing Steve has failed badly and is trying to sell something no-one is buying.
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How so? Without seeing it myself I can just assume he's talking about beauty while the panels (and artist) show tyranny, which to me and you would be horrific. To a white nationalist though it might be beautiful.So I just read the new Cap America: Steve Rogers. Without giving to much away, it's basically an interview between journalist Sally Floyd and the Supreme Leader himself.
And given what we discussed the whole day long, it has convinced me even more that I'm right regarding Mr. Spencers stance on the whole topic. You might not like him being depicted as the big villain of this story. But there's no way you could spin that into Nick Spencer actually being on the side of the Nazis. Because while Steve Rogers utters all those lies about how beautiful his new world is, the imagery proves him otherwise simultaneously.
it displays the hypocrisy of the situation.
From what I have heard of the issue, it is reminiscent of the Nixon interviews. It COULD be titillating to the average white supremacist, but it more showing Steve has failed badly and is trying to sell something no-one is buying.
*nods*
That's good to hear then, doesn't change my opinion on Spencer or this whole connected series though.
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WOW. SO because I see the themes of this story differently than a reactionary, I'm being lumped in as a white supremacist sympathizer? Man if you knew me in meatspace you'd know exactly how off the mark you are.
Anyway I think this entry from Tom Breevort's Tumblr feed kinda sums up how I feel about this whole thing.
Edit: He're one that's better. I Couldnt link to the actual entry so I'll cut and paste it here:
"Who’s Afraid of the SECRET EMPIRE? – Chaos McKenzie
So there’s been a ton of controversy lately centered on Nick Spencer’s run of two corresponding Captain America titles. The controversy being the juxtaposition of a champion of liberty, transformed into a figure of fascism, flying in the face of what many feel the character stands for. I do not want to piss upon those fans feelings, I understand them, I get the rage, but like an avalanche begun by a tiny pebble knocked loose on a mountain summit that roles down, gathering steam, and becoming uncontrollable – I personally feel the controversy has lost any sense of control and the only real victim is the type of story that is going live long beyond the strife.
So yes, Nick Spencer is not writing a story about Captain America fighting the tides of fascism, which are quickly becoming a dominant force in real world politics once again; Spencer is instead using Captain America to paint a very realistic portrayal of current social and political climates. People currently, especially in America, feel their country has been subverted, and depending on whom you ask the cause of that subversion differs greatly. But it is a fact that the Marvel Universe has always attempted to represent the real world within their fantastical reality, and it is a fact now that Nick Spencer’s story heavily reflects things happening in politics right now. I get that some people don’t want that. That things have gotten so bad in the world lately that we need our escapism more than ever, but I for one am extremely excited for the story to unfold fully. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Captain Americawon’t be back to safe and normal status by the end of Secret Empire, and in the meantime we get a sci-fi/fantasy/adventure story that parallels the fears of people in today’s climate. Plus I really feel Spencer has earned a lot of trust with his Image books Morning Glories and The Fix (new volume out now!!)
In the Sam Wilson title, we see the fight for American ideals that have been presented to us on television and in films for decades. An ideal that in today’s climate doesn’t seem as realistic or believable as it once was. Then in Steve Rogers’ title, we watch as those ideals are perverted and twisted in accordance to the whims of an evil cosmic power with the mood swings of a child. One needs to remember through all of this, that fascists see themselves as the right, the just, like any truly brilliant villain they do not see themselves as villains. Surely by the end, as Cap struggles through the everything that is pure anathema and contrary to his character, he will come out of it even stronger, more defined, and recast in the ideals that make him a legend. It’s all very tense and amazing stuff, but I get how, to many, it’s a hard sell. So let’s try looking at it from a different angle – the source material.
Nick Spencer’s exploration of Hydra, as a fascist organization that truly believes it is in the right, doing good, all finds its beginnings in Jonathon Hickman’s Secret Warriors run. This was Hickman’s first series at Marvel, originally publicized as a co-production with Brian Michael Bendis, but Hickman took it in so many different directions that it became a beast completely unique to him. Madam Hydra, Hive, the Kraken, and the philosophical groundwork for this version of Hydra all come from Hickman’s run. Secret Warriors is the underdog of Hickman’s Marvel work after the epic of Fantastic Four and the build up to Secret War. To anyone feeling dirty about the current status of Captain America, I highly recommend checking out Hickman’s Secret Warriors, to get a better sense of the waters Spencer is churning up for his turn at the big event wheel. And remember this is just one more hurdle in a life of Herculean struggles for Steve Rogers, who will no doubt be on the side of truth and justice again, before too long.
To review – there’s no doubt Cap will be back to normal, sooner rather than later, but in the meantime I feel that Secret Empire deserves a much closer look than its getting. Consider how rewarding it will be to see the cracks of fascism rise among the plots of a mind-wiped idealist, to eventually see the evil topple of its own hubris. Without a doubt, I think Secret Empire will be considered a classic once all the dust from the controversy settles, especially as a parallel to the terrors of Trump-ism."
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To address one last thing: Is it possible that I'm seeing this whole thing differently because I'm a huge fan of SECRET WARRIORS and read it as it came out and have and re-read the huge Omnibus at least twice. And until that guy on Breevort's Tumblr feed mentions it I didnt even consider that it might be influencing my view of how bad/not bad this whole HydraCap thing is.
If you haven't read Hickman's Nick Fury vs. Hydra magnum opus, please, PLEASE do. IT's SOOOOOO GOOD. Secondly it does a great job of not only defining the Secret Warriors at Fury's disposal but also of redefining what HYDRA is in the Marvel Universe.
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Anyway I think this entry from Tom Breevort's Tumblr feed kinda sums up how I feel about this whole thing.
I'm still enjoying the story, and interested in how it ends. I'm not in love with the idea of another Cap, a 'real Cap,' because it takes away some of the angsty potential of Steve Rogers remembering his time as 'Hydra Cap' and having to live with those memories, but it is what it is.
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To me, it looks liker you're trying to justify a white supremacist sympathizer and his works.
To you, I'm just demonizing something I'm not getting.
*shrugs*
LOLZ. Okay man you win.
If you honestly think it's more likely that I'M a white supremacist sympathizer than you just not getting the overall crux and theme of the story that's being told? Fine.
We'll do each other the honor of ignoring each other here on in yes? GREEEEEEEAT.
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To address one last thing: Is it possible that I'm seeing this whole thing differently because I'm a huge fan of SECRET WARRIORS and read it as it came out and have and re-read the huge Omnibus at least twice. And until that guy on Breevort's Tumblr feed mentions it I didnt even consider that it might be influencing my view of how bad/not bad this whole HydraCap thing is.
If you haven't read Hickman's Nick Fury vs. Hydra magnum opus, please, PLEASE do. IT's SOOOOOO GOOD. Secondly it does a great job of not only defining the Secret Warriors at Fury's disposal but also of redefining what HYDRA is in the Marvel Universe.
I have not read Secret Warriors but I'm also not a fan of Bendis either.
In regards to your earlier post, it's kind hard for me to read it objectively when even if the author declares themselves Jewish but then also mentiosn they have absolutely no problem with this storyline, a storyline that turns Captain America, Magneto (a Holocaust survivor), and Scarlet Witch into Nazis. And also realesed the issue where they declared the NAzis should have won WW2 on the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. As another commenter pointed out the Tumblr user's post is basically a long winded ramble about how they know comics better than others.
The post you quoted however is just one long "I'm really excited for this comic and an eternal reoccurrence that plagues comics is in effect like always so we shouldn't really worry about what happens".
Neither are reassuring or convincing.
To address one last thing: Is it possible that I'm seeing this whole thing differently because I'm a huge fan of SECRET WARRIORS and read it as it came out and have and re-read the huge Omnibus at least twice. And until that guy on Breevort's Tumblr feed mentions it I didnt even consider that it might be influencing my view of how bad/not bad this whole HydraCap thing is.
If you haven't read Hickman's Nick Fury vs. Hydra magnum opus, please, PLEASE do. IT's SOOOOOO GOOD. Secondly it does a great job of not only defining the Secret Warriors at Fury's disposal but also of redefining what HYDRA is in the Marvel Universe.
I have not read Secret Warriors but I'm also not a fan of Bendis either.
In regards to your earlier post, it's kind hard for me to read it objectively when even if the author declares themselves Jewish but then also mentiosn they have absolutely no problem with this storyline, a storyline that turns Captain America, Magneto (a Holocaust survivor), and Scarlet Witch into Nazis. And also realesed the issue where they declared the NAzis should have won WW2 on the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. As another commenter pointed out the Tumblr user's post is basically a long winded ramble about how they know comics better than others.
The post you quoted however is just one long "I'm really excited for this comic and an eternal reoccurrence that plagues comics is in effect like always so we shouldn't really worry about what happens".
Neither are reassuring or convincing.
You should really read it. Because if you are so upset about Magneto becoming a nazi I must tell you you should know what really happened and not some stuff you read on a blog or so.
And regarding WW2 that was just a thing just Rogers believes after the cube thing. So he thinks the allies winning just happened because they used a cube to change reality.
And a last thing even if This is the real cap he is under the spell of a cube and that is the same to all the mindcontrol stuff that happened before to him and a whole lot of other heroes.
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To try and see things from your perspective though, as a social commentary and not a bigoted fanboy running the asylum, it has completely and utterly failed.
It has tantalized white nationalists and the like while enraging the vast majority of, well, everybody else. As commentary and an overview of how dire everything in the real world is right now it has failed, since you shouldn't need a higher understanding of comics to understand some sort of deeper truth. There should not be a deeper truth, if it is commentary, it should be noticeable to everyone.
He also, in an attempt to show the evils of fascism and Nazis and similar ideologies, should not have made a bastion of basically Anti-Nazi and a Holocaust survivor into Nazis. The only thing accomplished there was shock value and outrage. If there is commentary it's completely hollow.
As social commentary Secret Empire is a complete and total failure.
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I read Secret Warriors. Even I think it's kind of bad taste to turn that and Hickman's history of SHIELD to justify this kind of heel to because ONE guy wants to make a story that really doesn't quite work.
Also I'm with Rysky when I think Spencer has pretty much ruined anything fun or exciting with Cap by doing this. I say that after I've gone through it all.
SPEAKING of Rogers:
Latest issue of HydraCap:
So...that new Mutant homeland? Yeah that was a side deal HydraCap cut with Magneto. Apparently he didn't want to fight a war on TWO fronts. Basically it's like "Mutants get a homeland, but HYDRA doesn't officially recognize it."
So...yeah. Magneto cut a deal with HYDRA. But I don't think he condones what's going on. In the sense if HYDRA decided to take on Mutants, HYDRA probably gets their butt kicked. Maybe.
Also solicits apparently shows that Eternity breaks free thanks to an assist from Ultimate Marvel Iron Man, Cap, and probably Ultimate Hank Pym.
So...take that as you will.
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To address one last thing: Is it possible that I'm seeing this whole thing differently because I'm a huge fan of SECRET WARRIORS and read it as it came out and have and re-read the huge Omnibus at least twice. And until that guy on Breevort's Tumblr feed mentions it I didnt even consider that it might be influencing my view of how bad/not bad this whole HydraCap thing is.
If you haven't read Hickman's Nick Fury vs. Hydra magnum opus, please, PLEASE do. IT's SOOOOOO GOOD. Secondly it does a great job of not only defining the Secret Warriors at Fury's disposal but also of redefining what HYDRA is in the Marvel Universe.
I have not read Secret Warriors but I'm also not a fan of Bendis either.
In regards to your earlier post, it's kind hard for me to read it objectively when even if the author declares themselves Jewish but then also mentiosn they have absolutely no problem with this storyline, a storyline that turns Captain America, Magneto (a Holocaust survivor), and Scarlet Witch into Nazis. And also realesed the issue where they declared the NAzis should have won WW2 on the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. As another commenter pointed out the Tumblr user's post is basically a long winded ramble about how they know comics better than others.
The post you quoted however is just one long "I'm really excited for this comic and an eternal reoccurrence that plagues comics is in effect like always so we shouldn't really worry about what happens".
Neither are reassuring or convincing.
You should really read it. Because if you are so upset about Magneto becoming a nazi I must tell you you should know what really happened and not some stuff you read on a blog or so.
And regarding WW2 that was just a thing just Rogers believes after the cube thing. So he thinks the allies winning just happened because they used a cube to change reality.
And a last thing even if This is the real cap he is under the spell of a cube and that is the...
I kinda have to rely on blogs since I will absolutely not support this line with my money.
In regards to the last two things it's been revealed that it's not really mind control. And even if it was Captain Hydra is still apparently worthy to wield Mjolnir, so uh, wtf?
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But yeah I agree, the social commentary is pretty low in my mind based on the fact we've had stories where fascism took over in OTHER forms. Anyone remember CW I? That's kind of that.
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To address one last thing: Is it possible that I'm seeing this whole thing differently because I'm a huge fan of SECRET WARRIORS and read it as it came out and have and re-read the huge Omnibus at least twice. And until that guy on Breevort's Tumblr feed mentions it I didnt even consider that it might be influencing my view of how bad/not bad this whole HydraCap thing is.
Well, I'm a HUGE fan of Secret Warriors as well, so maybe you're onto something.
Rysky,
There are other ways to read comics other than blogs that don't require you to spend money. I haven't spend a dime on comics since 1990 and I still manage to keep up.
Rysky,
Neither did I but that was fascism too when Tony decided to join up with the US because "Hey we're getting out of hand here and everyone needs to follow these rules." It wasn't a polite discussion it was an order.
This is kind of the same thing.