I know there are several threads on the topic, I researched it I assure you, but 1 thing still didn't get clarified to me...
so when looking at monsters and their attacks, there seems to be 3 different ways they are listed, and I saw no threads that clarified why they are written different, example is
bite , 2 claws
bite or 2 claws
bite and 2 claws
from what I read, it doesn't seem to matter how it's written, supposedly a creature can take a full round action and do all of it's natural attacks, so I am left confused as to what the importance is on it either having a comma, or, or and between the attacks, can someone clarify that?
You get all three attacks, but the claw attacks are secondary and gets a penalty of -5 (or -2 with the multiattack feat).
Sennje wrote: You get all three attacks, but the claw attacks are secondary and gets a penalty of -5 (or -2 with the multiattack feat). I get that, that much is clear, I just want to know what the difference between the 3 attack examples, what does the comma, or, and the and change? or does it not change anything and they just decided to be weird and write attacks different for no reason?
alkatrazshock wrote: Sennje wrote: You get all three attacks, but the claw attacks are secondary and gets a penalty of -5 (or -2 with the multiattack feat). I get that, that much is clear, I just want to know what the difference between the 3 attack examples, what does the comma, or, and the and change? or does it not change anything and they just decided to be weird and write attacks different for no reason? Can you give an example, I took a quick look in the bestiary and didn't find any "and", and I only saw "or" in creatures with a different attacks occupying the same limbs.
Sennje wrote: alkatrazshock wrote: Sennje wrote: You get all three attacks, but the claw attacks are secondary and gets a penalty of -5 (or -2 with the multiattack feat). I get that, that much is clear, I just want to know what the difference between the 3 attack examples, what does the comma, or, and the and change? or does it not change anything and they just decided to be weird and write attacks different for no reason? Can you give an example, I took a quick look in the bestiary and didn't find any "and", and I only saw "or" in creatures with a different attacks occupying the same limbs. Ant, Giant
Melee bite +3 (1d6+2 plus grab), sting +3 (1d4+2 plus poison)
Ghoul
Melee bite +3 (1d6+1 plus disease and paralysis) and 2 claws +3 (1d6+1 plus paralysis)
Giant, Cloud
Melee Morningstar +22/+17/+12 (4d6+18) or 2 slams +22 (2d6+12)
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The word "and" and a comma mean the same thing - you get all those attack as a full attack. If it says "or", you have to choose which of the attacks you are going to use.
Quote: Ant, Giant
Melee bite +3 (1d6+2 plus grab), sting +3 (1d4+2 plus poison)
Ghoul
Melee bite +3 (1d6+1 plus disease and paralysis) and 2 claws +3 (1d6+1 plus paralysis)
Giant, Cloud
Melee Morningstar +22/+17/+12 (4d6+18) or 2 slams +22 (2d6+12)
The giant ant, when making a full attack, gets both a bite attack and a sting attack. The ghoul gets its bite attack and 2 claw attacks, also as a full attack.
The cloud giant, however, must choose. It either gets 3 attacks with its morningstar, or gets to attack with 2 slams. It has to choose.
Jeraa wrote: The word "and" and a comma mean the same thing - you get all those attack as a full attack. If it says "or", you have to choose which of the attacks you are going to use.
Quote: Ant, Giant
Melee bite +3 (1d6+2 plus grab), sting +3 (1d4+2 plus poison)
Ghoul
Melee bite +3 (1d6+1 plus disease and paralysis) and 2 claws +3 (1d6+1 plus paralysis)
Giant, Cloud
Melee Morningstar +22/+17/+12 (4d6+18) or 2 slams +22 (2d6+12)
The giant ant, when making a full attack, gets both a bite attack and a sting attack. The ghoul gets its bite attack and 2 claw attacks, also as a full attack.
The cloud giant, however, must choose. It either gets 3 attacks with its morningstar, or gets to attack with 2 slams. It has to choose.
so there was no real need to have a comma or an and, they just decided to have some be different it appears, I think I understand it all now
Sennje wrote: You get all three attacks, but the claw attacks are secondary and gets a penalty of -5 (or -2 with the multiattack feat). Bite and 2 Claws are all primary unless specified otherwise.
Back in 3.5 additional natural attacks beyond the first natural attack type were automatically secondary. Your statement would be correct for 3.5.
In Pathfinder Primary or Secondary is based on attack type and both Bite and Claws are primary attack types. (Bestiary p302)
Exception: natural attacks combined with iterative attacks are always secondary. (CRB p182)
also, correction to what Sennje said, claws and bite are all primary so all are at full bab.
It is perfectly fine to replace "and" with a comma. It's a kind of shorthand.
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