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I'm trying to make a skillmonkey that isn't just a "smack-it" martial with some out of combat tricks.
What do you think?
I think the class needs a lot of work.
The basic premise in a game like Pathfinder is that all characters should participate in combat, even if they have strong options at their disposal outside of combat. Mostly what I see here is a character that could be potent in a fight at 1st level, but then looses potency with each new level.
The skill options are creative, but in some cases the mechanics are clumsy.
SKILLS
I assume you mean that are skills are on the jack's list of classs skills. I think that is lazy design and would go about this differently. Maybe at 1st level he chooses ten skills that will be his class skills (like the expert NPC class), plus one skill per class level he has (so 11 at 1st level and 30 at 20th level).
PROFICIENCIES
A copy of the rogue's list. Not bad, but if this isn't just a "smack-it" martial then why does jack need anything more than simple weapons?
FINESSE
You have given the jack Dex to attack and damage even with great axes, halberds, and bows. Not only is this well beyond the scope of the Weapon Finesse feat (which is limited to light weapons plus a few others) but it also throws in Dex to damage for free, which is one of the more difficult-to-get options in Pathfinder. I think this is handled clumsily. For starters, if you want the class to be Dexterity-based, then give them Weapon Finesse instead of calling it something else. Maybe at higher levels they can choose to invest in some "whack-it" abilities that expand it to other weapons or even add it to damage. Also, if this is not a "whack-it" class, then why is the 1st level ability's sole purpose to whack things? You should replace this with another class feature that serves to help define it. Maybe take a look a the investigator's inspiration ability for ideas.
SKILL SAVANT
There is a lot to cover here, so I won't address them all. The names of skills should be capitalized. I like the skill unlocks (which are useless until 5th level), but I give a thumbs down to the skill ranks=level bit and reassigning skill points. There is no precedence in the basic rules for retraining skill ranks. With the bard's versatile performance ability, the "wasted" skill ranks are simply wasted or used for prereqs. At 10th level, this is the equivalent of 50 bonus skill points. At 20th, its 200 bonus skill points.
ACROBATICS
You grant a benefit to high jumps, which is a sub-set to a sub-set of Acrobatics. I think you can do better than than. Adding his level to all jump checks would at least be more handy. Or retaining Dex to AC while balancing, or moving full speed while balancing or tumbling. You also throw in a benefit for Trip and Dirty Trick (which are "whack-it" style combat maneuvers. This should be a separate kind of ability.
APPRAISE
Not bad, but there is no skill check involved. Its more like a spell.
BLUFF
The Bluff skill is already designed to do this without regards to duration. I suppose what you are doing is giving the jack a second try at a lie that uses a saving throw. I think you can do better than this.
CLIMB
Grapple and Overrun. More combat stuff. For the wall running stuff, I think there might be a feat or class feature that already does this. Look that up to see how the wording could be improved. I think a better option would be to slowly grant a climb speed. Once he reaches a certain level, his speed and climb speed would be the same. Or retaining Dex to AC, or other things that interact with the Climb skill.
DIPLOMACY
You mean the spell "charm person"? Maybe that could be a higher level version of this ability, but maybe start with a benefit to Diplomacy that interacts with existing skill mechanics.
DISABLE DEVICE
I think the crafting traps bit is a little weird but I guess it makes some sense too. I think the part about storing a magic effect needs more work. Maybe it can be an advances ability that can only be used when he starts gaining some other magic ability.
ABILITY BONUS
Needs a lot of work. Pretty vague. The skill bonus encourages dumping ability scores. The CMB and CMD bonus is more "whack-it" stuff. I would encourage you to drop this ability.
FAST HANDS
Why not grant the Quick Draw feat since it it a prerequisite for some other things. The bit about drawing items for free outside your turn got me thinking. Maybe fast hands can be your 1st level ability, with a point pool that fuels some of the jack's abilities?
EXPERT FOCUS
Why not just give him the skill mastery ability?
UNCANNY MOVEMENT
Evasion and Uncanny Dodge do not have a level dependant component. You have rolled several class features into a single one, which I think is bad design. Why would a jack get such a benefit when climbing or swimming if he had no training in it? The free movement between attacks is pretty potent too. Maybe too good unless the character already has a serious focus on combat. But he's not a "whack-it" type is he? ;) This should broken up into several parts.
MULTIPLE WILLS
Can you please provide a couple of examples of how you see this ability working?
SKILL MASTERY
At a certain point the many, many skills ranks cease to have meaning, especially when failing a Fort or Will save at 17th level could mean instantly dying, or when he has no way to contribute in fighting a 17th level monster.
ASCENDANT
So he can't die of old age, but continues to age. Sounds sad!
IN CONCLUSION
Just had a thought. The vigilante class has an option that can be selected at every level, instead of every other like many classes. At odd-numbered levels he chooses from one pool, and at even-numbered from a different pool. I think you could do something like this, but one pool is all skill stuff, and the other pool is strictly non-skill stuff.
I haven't read your post, but I have read Ciaran's review. Perhaps you would be better off starting from an existing rogue or bard or archetype of one of those classes and perhaps creating a hybrid that combines and trades elements to get the sort of feel you want without being unbalanced.
Good to have some free jack stuff out there. ;)
Normally classes are supported by strong themes and lore with large potential for creating characters. I don't see this here. It's just a generic "skill guy" that gets a bunch of abilities that don't really make sense together.
Also important in that a class requires a strong and interesting game mechanic to set it apart and tie the whole thing together. Again, that's missing here.
I should point out that making a class is exceptionally difficult. Making a class that lacks spellcasting AND a full BAB is even more difficult as classes with 3/4 BAB usually have 6-level arcane spellcasting or 9-level divine spellcasting.
FINESSE
You have given the jack Dex to attack and damage even with great axes, halberds, and bows. Not only is this well beyond the scope of the Weapon Finesse feat (which is limited to light weapons plus a few others) but it also throws in Dex to damage for free, which is one of the more difficult-to-get options in Pathfinder. I think this is handled clumsily. For starters, if you want the class to be Dexterity-based, then give them Weapon Finesse instead of calling it something else. Maybe at higher levels they can choose to invest in some "whack-it" abilities that expand it to other weapons or even add it to damage. Also, if this is not a "whack-it" class, then why is the 1st level ability's sole purpose to whack things? You should replace this with another class feature that serves to help define it. Maybe take a look a the investigator's inspiration ability for ideas.
Yes it does get these things for free and it is what I intended. This ability raises the Jack above commoners and experts in damage dealing, but it is really a fall back ability when all else fails so the Jack never feels like an NPCSKILL SAVANT
There is a lot to cover here, so I won't address them all. The names of skills should be capitalized. I like the skill unlocks (which are useless until 5th level), but I give a thumbs down to the skill ranks=level bit and reassigning skill points. There is no precedence in the basic rules for retraining skill ranks. With the bard's versatile performance ability, the "wasted" skill ranks are simply wasted or used for prereqs. At 10th level, this is the equivalent of 50 bonus skill points. At 20th, its 200 bonus skill points.Precedent comes from the new fighter advance armor training and weapon training abilities that add skill ranks. I'd rather not have certain fighter builds having more skill points than the Jack
ACROBATICS
You grant a benefit to high jumps, which is a sub-set to a sub-set of Acrobatics. I think you can do better than than. Adding his level to all jump checks would at least be more handy. Or retaining Dex to AC while balancing, or moving full speed while balancing or tumbling. You also throw in a benefit for Trip and Dirty Trick (which are "whack-it" style combat maneuvers. This should be a separate kind of ability.
I wouldn't consider non-damage actions as "whack-it". Retaining dex while balancing sounds useful, the rest is covered.BLUFF
The Bluff skill is already designed to do this without regards to duration. I suppose what you are doing is giving the jack a second try at a lie that uses a saving throw. I think you can do better than this.
Think of in-combat applicationsCLIMB
Grapple and Overrun. More combat stuff. For the wall running stuff, I think there might be a feat or class feature that already does this. Look that up to see how the wording could be improved. I think a better option would be to slowly grant a climb speed. Once he reaches a certain level, his speed and climb speed would be the same. Or retaining Dex to AC, or other things that interact with the Climb skill.
The skill unlock grants a climb speedEXPERT FOCUS
Why not just give him the skill mastery ability?
It's very different. I dislike taking 10 on skill contest at low levels. Playing as a rogue, it a lot of the time resulted in me telling the GM my static number was bigger than the other static numberUNCANNY MOVEMENT
Evasion and Uncanny Dodge do not have a level dependant component. You have rolled several class features into a single one, which I think is bad design. Why would a jack get such a benefit when climbing or swimming if he had no training in it? The free movement between attacks is pretty potent too. Maybe too good unless the character already has a serious focus on combat. But he's not a "whack-it" type is he? ;) This should broken up into several parts.
Hmmmm, maybe I should break it upMULTIPLE WILLS
Can you please provide a couple of examples of how you see this ability working?
Mainly savant skill use. Many of them are standard actionsSKILL MASTERY
At a certain point the many, many skills ranks cease to have meaning, especially when failing a Fort or Will save at 17th level could mean instantly dying, or when he has no way to contribute in fighting a 17th level monster.
Yes, that is why he gets all of them at that level. It no longer matters that much. With Ability Focus though, the Jack is now GOOD at all skills even relative to other party members. The knowledge checks alone should provide a decent edge to the party
I appreciate the comments.
Why not just play a phantom thief unchained rogue?
Why not just play a phantom thief unchained rogue?
It doesn't appear to do anything remotely relevant in a standard combat or dungeon crawl.
Huh? I thought this was supposed to be a skills class. The phantom thief is emphatically a skills class, and not a combat role.
Huh? I thought this was supposed to be a skills class. The phantom thief is emphatically a skills class, and not a combat role.
Why should skill be irrelevant in combat?
Everybody has to play in combat after-all barring a few very specific campaigns.
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Huh? I thought this was supposed to be a skills class. The phantom thief is emphatically a skills class, and not a combat role.Why should skill be irrelevant in combat?
Everybody has to play in combat after-all barring a few very specific campaigns.
Your first post sure read like you were trying to make a skill character, and not some "smack-it" martial.
Huh? I thought this was supposed to be a skills class. The phantom thief is emphatically a skills class, and not a combat role.Why should skill be irrelevant in combat?
Everybody has to play in combat after-all barring a few very specific campaigns.
Your first post sure read like you were trying to make a skill character, and not some "smack-it" martial.
Not a smack it martial with out of combat tricks.
That doesn't mean a class that is just out of combat tricks.
Combat is far more than just hitting things.
Ah, I thought you meant you didn't want a (primarily) martial character with (a few) out of combat tricks, but a dedicated non-combat skill specialist.
My mistake. The opening post still reads pretty ambiguously though, you must admit.
Do you realize that this class makes for the perfect firearm user? Dex to damage at first level, free reloading of TWF pistols at fifth level. Plus de facto three good saves, flight (climb something, float the rest of the day), and magic item crafting.
So it's not a "smack-it" martial with some out of combat tricks, but a "shoot it" martial with some out of combat tricks!
The Multiple Wills ability is really really weird because most abilities don't mention which body parts they use. The Knowledge Skill Savant is way to meta!
Do you realize that this class makes for the perfect firearm user? Dex to damage at first level, free reloading of TWF pistols at fifth level. Plus de facto three good saves, flight (climb something, float the rest of the day), and magic item crafting.
So it's not a "smack-it" martial with some out of combat tricks, but a "shoot it" martial with some out of combat tricks!
The Multiple Wills ability is really really weird because most abilities don't mention which body parts they use. The Knowledge Skill Savant is way to meta!
I did notice that. I am wondering if that is a problem?
Idk about knowledge savant being too meta, I've seen knowledge checks basically work that way at the table and some players have to roleplay very hard to act like they don't know the stat block when they do.
Multiple wills is when the late game Jack really begins to pick up. You can have each arm doing something else while the legs get an extra move action.