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Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them?
Apparently they do.
James Jacobs wrote: Game speak for "DOUBLE" doesn't really mean "twice as much." A creature that's Tiny and has a reach of 0 feet who uses a reach weapon would basically go up to the next stage of reach: 5 feet. Something smaller than Tiny would, at the most, go up to Tiny's level of reach—weapons smaller than those wielded by Tiny creatures, therefore, never have reach.
James Jacobs wrote: Giving a tiny or smaller creature a reach weapon allows it to attack adjacent foes as if it were a Small or Medium creature.
crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :)
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) unless it has 3 unchained rogue levels a cupple level in urban bloodrager and some way to get mutagens and gets like 40+ dex and tears people appart :)
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex.
Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. Unless it's a Dex in the extremely unbelievable range it's still not a big number. A dex of 20 is still only a total of 6 points of damage.
And it's not an automatic given that a creature has dex to damage just because it's tiny.
no a tiny creature with reach does not get 5ft reach. James Jacob isn't a rules guy. tiny creatures have 0ft reach and doubling that is still 0ft.
If you are adding Dex to damage you no longer take the Strenth penalty to damage.
So damage becomes 1dx + dex.
If you are talking about a PC then you are probably taling about well into the 20s. By level 10 maybe even 30. + Magic Enhaancement on top of that. That's before you start adding class abilities.
That's not bad for a Dex Melee build.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. Unless it's a Dex in the extremely unbelievable range it's still not a big number. A dex of 20 is still only a total of 6 points of damage.
And it's not an automatic given that a creature has dex to damage just because it's tiny.
What about a whip made for a tiny (or even smaller) creature, does it still have 15 ft. reach?
Tiny or smaller creatures don't even get Weapon Finesse automatically (the Sprite doesn't, even though it's Diminutive). They get Agile Maneuvers for free (DEX instead of STR to CMB) and that's it.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. Unless it's a Dex in the extremely unbelievable range it's still not a big number. A dex of 20 is still only a total of 6 points of damage.
And it's not an automatic given that a creature has dex to damage just because it's tiny. I've always thought something like Dex-to-damage simply shouldn't apply on creatures three or more size categories larger than the attacker. That's obviously not in the rules, but the thought of something the size of a rat tearing apart something the size of a horse with Dex alone, and no substantial strength - no matter how high that Dex becomes - is just plain silly. Even two size categories seems pretty crazy, but I HAVE been seriously sliced up by a cat or two in my days, so I suppose that is still kind of believable.
Cuup wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. Unless it's a Dex in the extremely unbelievable range it's still not a big number. A dex of 20 is still only a total of 6 points of damage.
And it's not an automatic given that a creature has dex to damage just because it's tiny. I've always thought something like Dex-to-damage simply shouldn't apply on creatures three or more size categories larger than the attacker. That's obviously not in the rules, but the thought of something the size of a rat tearing apart something the size of a horse with Dex alone, and no substantial strength - no matter how high that Dex becomes - is just plain silly. Even two size categories seems pretty crazy, but I HAVE been seriously sliced up by a cat or two in my days, so I suppose that is still kind of believable. I disagree. Death by a thousand cuts is definitely a thing.
If a Cat knew where to strike a Cats claw could take out the Jugular of a Horse with a few strikes.
An old style Hat Pin was about 3" long. Victorian Streetwalkers were known to use them for self defense, sometimes to lethal effect.
A 3" rapier would be appropriate for a Diminutive person. And those hat ping had handles of know more than a centimetre, you had to wield them with a couple of fingers.
It's all about where you put that tiny piece of steel rather than how much force you use.
Within the limits of a highly unrealistic combat system Weapon Finesse/Dex to damage is far from been absurd.
Cuup wrote: I've always thought something like Dex-to-damage simply shouldn't apply on creatures three or more size categories larger than the attacker. That's obviously not in the rules, but the thought of something the size of a rat tearing apart something the size of a horse with Dex alone, and no substantial strength - no matter how high that Dex becomes - is just plain silly. Even two size categories seems pretty crazy, but I HAVE been seriously sliced up by a cat or two in my days, so I suppose that is still kind of believable. Bear in mind that bigger creatures usually have high CON and many hit dice (so they have a lot of HP), so even with DEX to damage and the high DEX that comes with smaller size, it'll still take a lot of time. By the way, Tiny and smaller creatures usually have few hit dice (unless they're in a swarm), so they have low to-hit bonuses (especially since they don't all have Weapon Finesse) and they're unlikely to overcome a bigger opponent's natural armor.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Cuup wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. Unless it's a Dex in the extremely unbelievable range it's still not a big number. A dex of 20 is still only a total of 6 points of damage.
And it's not an automatic given that a creature has dex to damage just because it's tiny. I've always thought something like Dex-to-damage simply shouldn't apply on creatures three or more size categories larger than the attacker. That's obviously not in the rules, but the thought of something the size of a rat tearing apart something the size of a horse with Dex alone, and no substantial strength - no matter how high that Dex becomes - is just plain silly. Even two size categories seems pretty crazy, but I HAVE been seriously sliced up by a cat or two in my days, so I suppose that is still kind of believable. I disagree. Death by a thousand cuts is definitely a thing. Precisely. A thousand cuts is what a rat would realistically need to take down a horse. That's a thousand rounds of combat, assuming all bite attacks hit.
@Stephen Ede: I'm not so sure about your claim of a cat cutting a horse's jugular - and anyway, the cat would need to reach it first. Even if it COULD cut that jugular, we're talking about called shots, and a critical called shot no less. That same cat would have to claw at the horse's legs for quite a while before the horse started to feel dizzy from blood loss. Also, those Victorian Streetwalkers likely had a much higher strength score than a rat. Yes, a well-placed strike could have been effective, but again, we're talking about critical called shots to vital areas, not just standard attacks.
Theoretically, each cat's claw is causing 4 cuts, the cat has multi-attack, can attack with all 4 claws each round, plus rend, and a bite causing 2-4 more scratches. So that's about 30 cuts per round.
Stephen Ede wrote: If a Cat knew where to strike a Cats claw could take out the Jugular of a Horse with a few strikes.
An old style Hat Pin was about 3" long. Victorian Streetwalkers were known to use them for self defense, sometimes to lethal effect.
A 3" rapier would be appropriate for a Diminutive person. And those hat ping had handles of know more than a centimetre, you had to wield them with a couple of fingers.
It's all about where you put that tiny piece of steel rather than how much force you use.
Within the limits of a highly unrealistic combat system Weapon Finesse/Dex to damage is far from been absurd.
Some animals have touch skin than others. I think it is fair to say that steel is tougher than a cat's claws, and humans are stronger than cats so just because a human with steel can possibly kill a horse that does not mean a cat can.
PS: Many animals are naturally inclined to go for the throat of other animals. Cats have gone for people's faces vs just going for a leg which is closer to the ground.
I have opinions!
To the original question: No by RAW, yes by RAI.
And I think it would have been better if Dex-to-Damage characters still faced damage penalties for Strength below 10.
This is regarding my planning an Imp Companion for my eventually Diabolist character in PFS. So the imp will at least have a positive Str score.
The biggest problem with a tiny Unchained Rogue scenario is that there are no weapons available with Reach that can be used with Weapon Finesse, unless you count a Long Lash Kobold Tail Attachment.
I recall seeing something that allowed Finesse with 2-handed weapons, but can't recall if it included reach weapons.
There is also the Longarm spell. Rogues can get that.
JDLPF wrote: The biggest problem with a tiny Unchained Rogue scenario is that there are no weapons available with Reach that can be used with Weapon Finesse, unless you count a Long Lash Kobold Tail Attachment. I would like to introduce you to the Elven Branched Spear of Melee Tactics Toolbox:
Melee Tactics wrote: 1d8 ×3 10 lbs. P brace, reach
Behind this long pole weapon’s spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade. When you make attacks of opportunity provoked by movement, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an elven branched spear sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons.
Nice, my plan to have Awakened Unchained Rogue Anthropomorphic Animal Rat minions for an evil Ratfolk Druid just became viable again.
I swear one of the big hates for the 3.5 Spiked Chain was it's "silliness"...and instead we have the Elven Branched Spear. (shakes head in wonderment).
Keith Apperson wrote: JDLPF wrote: The biggest problem with a tiny Unchained Rogue scenario is that there are no weapons available with Reach that can be used with Weapon Finesse, unless you count a Long Lash Kobold Tail Attachment. I would like to introduce you to the Elven Branched Spear of Melee Tactics Toolbox:
Melee Tactics wrote: 1d8 ×3 10 lbs. P brace, reach
Behind this long pole weapon’s spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade. When you make attacks of opportunity provoked by movement, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an elven branched spear sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons.
Some one should like all the previous interactions of this thread. This gets asked and rehashed once a quarter,
Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage?
While Bestiary entries are not good RAW sources, I feel they may still be useful for RAI. the Bestiary 2 twigjack is a Tiny creature with a spear. Statblock has 0' reach normal 5' reach with spear.
The Sideromancer wrote: While Bestiary entries are not good RAW sources, I feel they may still be useful for RAI. the Bestiary 2 twigjack is a Tiny creature with a spear. Statblock has 0' reach normal 5' reach with spear. ...which is weird because a spear isn't even a reach weapon.
Maybe it's supposed to be a longspear (which has pretty much the same stats as a spear, with reach - it's also 50% heavier).
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If you want official as we have answer, then yes per James Jacobs.
Twig jack has a non reach weapon as reach.
All other bestiary use things like bites that normally have longer reach as reach 5 while weapon/claws are reach 0.
Space is 2.5 so normal reach is 2.5 ft which rounds down to "nearest multiple of 5" resulting in 0 ft. Stands to reason that 2.5 doubles is 5, so reach weapons would say 5.
The line saying they got it with reach weapons was cut from 3.5 for space reasons.
This subject will keep coming up literally every 3 months and will never get answered because the harm of not answering it doesn't effect many PC, so the GM is empowered to solve this issue.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Theoretically, each cat's claw is causing 4 cuts, the cat has multi-attack, can attack with all 4 claws each round, plus rend, and a bite causing 2-4 more scratches. So that's about 30 cuts per round. GREAT! That horse will go down in just 33 short rounds.
JDLPF wrote: The biggest problem with a tiny Unchained Rogue scenario is that there are no weapons available with Reach that can be used with Weapon Finesse, unless you count a Long Lash Kobold Tail Attachment. tiny sized elven pike is a reach 2h fenessable weapon
Gisher wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage? unchained rogue levels mostly
Gisher wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage? Take your choice. Unchain Rogue levels, feats you name it.
There are many ways to add your Dex to damage instead of Strength.
Note this was raised in regard to a build originally, so I'm assuming the taking of levels in addition to anything a creature may have naturally
Stephen Ede wrote:
Gisher wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage? Take your choice. Unchain Rogue levels, feats you name it.
There are many ways to add your Dex to damage instead of Strength.
Note this was raised in regard to a build originally, so I'm assuming the taking of levels in addition to anything a creature may have naturally
while feats may be good for dex to damage for a reach weapon(normally a 2h weapon) unchained rogue is way better as it lets you get 1.5x dex to damage as oposed to just normal dex to damage
Lady-J wrote: Stephen Ede wrote:
Gisher wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage? Take your choice. Unchain Rogue levels, feats you name it.
There are many ways to add your Dex to damage instead of Strength.
Note this was raised in regard to a build originally, so I'm assuming the taking of levels in addition to anything a creature may have naturally
while feats may be good for dex to damage for a reach weapon(normally a 2h weapon) unchained rogue is way better as it lets you get 1.5x dex to damage as oposed to just normal dex to damage Where do you get that from?
All of them say you do Dex instead of Strength.
While it could be implied for all of them that if you would get 1.5 Strength you will get 1.5 Dex I can't see anything that states it so for any of the Dex for Damage methods.
Stephen Ede wrote: Lady-J wrote: Stephen Ede wrote:
Gisher wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: crashcanuck wrote: Does a Tiny creature using a Reach weapon threaten the 5ft around them? With a damage quotient in the range of [1dx-x], it's not much of a threat. :) Seriously!?
Any tiny creature engaged in Melee is using Weapon Finesse and adding it's Dex to damage. And tiny creatures generally have a pretty good Dex. I'm confused. How are they getting Dex to damage? Take your choice. Unchain Rogue levels, feats you name it.
There are many ways to add your Dex to damage instead of Strength.
Note this was raised in regard to a build originally, so I'm assuming the taking of levels in addition to anything a creature may have naturally
while feats may be good for dex to damage for a reach weapon(normally a 2h weapon) unchained rogue is way better as it lets you get 1.5x dex to damage as oposed to just normal dex to damage Where do you get that from?
All of them say you do Dex instead of Strength.
While it could be implied for all of them that if you would get 1.5 Strength you will get 1.5 Dex I can't see anything that states it so for any of the Dex for Damage methods. unchained rogue is the only dex to damage ability that can be applyed to a two handed weapon without the you dont get dex and a half for two handing a fenesable weapon there for you get dex and a half for two handing a fenesable weapon as you would if your going str based
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