Knowledge Skill and similar Abilities Quuestions

[Vince Frost]

I am most likely going to regret asking this, But it goes. Please feel free to correct me where I go wrong.

1) Knowledge Skills: (Trained only) can be used to identify your target and any of their special powers or vulnerabilities. This is non-action . To me this counts as a free action in combat. Normally the DC is 10+CR, but is 5+CR for common creatures and 15+CR for rare ones. There are Special rules for untrained Knowledge checks of 10 and less.
Do I got it right so far?

2) Kirin Style (Combat, Style) "While using this style, you can spend a swift action to make a Knowledge check to identify a single creature (DC 15 + the creature's CR for this purpose). If you succeed at the check, while using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against that creature's attacks, as well as a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that creature's attacks of opportunity. These bonuses last for as long as you use this style. If you cease combat with the creature during this time and resume it later, you can attempt the check again."

I think I can avoid the swift action with combat Mastery into a free action.
Not sure what is meant about "+2 bonus on saving throws against that creature's attacks" means. Are we talking about Frightful Presence, breath weapon, claw attack or spells even.
The DC for Knowledge check went up as well. (DC 15 + the creature's CR). Doesn't seem to care about it being a common or rare monster. But I do get the "+2 bonus on saving throws against that creature's attacks".

There's more, but I put it on hold for the moment. Just tackle these two first.

[Vince Frost]

Oh! I already know that different Creatures need different Knowledge checks. Arcane for dragon, religion for undead, etc.

[Vince Frost]

After reading a half dozen treads on the topic I foolishly post before reading. I found most of my answers.

Knowledge does work the way I think it does.

Kirin Style save applies to anything the target does to character that allows a Fortitude, reflex or will save and but not AC.

Kirin Strike can not be be used in the first turn. Due to swift action limits.

Note: Insight bonuses, like almost all bonuses, don't stack with itself.

Kirin Path can be use for a normal knowledge and ANY other knowledge (including lore wardens' Know Thy Enemy)checks. This could be used to avoid the DC 15+CR, but do not gain the saves and dodge Bonuses from Kirin Style and by extension Kirin Strike.
Must use a successful Kirin Style to gain the benefits of Kirin Strike.
Note: Dodge Bonuses is the only bonus that stacks with itself.

Lore Warden, Know Thy Enemy and Swift Lore: If you have Swift Lore, but used your swift action this round, you may choose to use a standard action of Know Thy Enemy in it's place.

Note: Kirin Style uses Insight bonus while Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy is a competence bonus. Therefore can stack with each other.

As RAW you can not take the lower DC of another action (Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy) to gain the benefit of an action of a higher DC (Kirin Style).

Slayer's Studied Target bonus does not have a type and can be stacked. Can be applied to Bluff, all Knowledges, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival, weapon attack and damage rolls.

Did I miss something or got something not quite right?

[Framane]

Vince Frost said wrote:

As RAW you can not take the lower DC of another action (Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy) to gain the benefit of an action of a higher DC (Kirin Style).

Note that you also can't use a higher DC to gain the benefit of a lower DC, Know Thy Enemy and Kirin Style are 2 different abilities that need to be activated separately to gain their benefits.

The only thing I could see that might prevent this from working, is the no retry clause on Knowledge skills. It could be argued that since you already made a check against that creature, you are not allowed to roll a new one. I would rule that this only applies to the base use of Knowledge and not to extra use like the one the feat gives.

Know Thy Enemy:

At 7th level, a lore warden can take a standard action to study a specific target in sight. He must make a Knowledge check to determine the target’s abilities and weaknesses as part of this standard action. If successful, the lore warden not only notes the appropriate abilities and weaknesses, as detailed under the Knowledge skill, but also gains a +2 competence bonus on all attack rolls and weapon damage rolls made against that enemy. Note that this bonus on attack and damage rolls applies only to that specific creature. This bonus lasts for the duration of an encounter, or until the lore warden attempts a new Knowledge check to use this ability on a different target.

Kirin Style:

Benefit: While using this style, you can spend a swift action to make a Knowledge check to identify a single creature (DC 15 + the creature’s CR for this purpose). If you succeed at the check, while using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against that creature’s attacks, as well as a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that creature’s attacks of opportunity. These bonuses last for as long as you use this style. If you cease combat with the creature during this time and resume it later, you can attempt the check again.

Knowledge skill: "Retry? No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place."

Vince Frost said wrote:

Kirin Path can be use for a normal knowledge and ANY other knowledge (including lore wardens' Know Thy Enemy)checks. This could be used to avoid the DC 15+CR, but do not gain the saves and dodge Bonuses from Kirin Style and by extension Kirin Strike.

Also, Kirin Path does allow you to take 10 on all Knowledge checks even Know thy Enemy, but the movement part of the feat is limited to while using Kirin Style. If you didn't know, taking 10 is to consider that your d20 landed on a 10. This won't allow you to avoid the DC 15+CR, but you know that you won't get screwed by the dice.

Kirin Path:

Benefit: Whenever you make a Knowledge check to identify a creature, even when using Kirin Style, you can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, if the creature ends its turn within your threatened area, you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity that round to move up to 5 feet times your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). You must end your move in a square threatened by the creature. This move does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Vince Frost said wrote:

Kirin Strike can not be be used in the first turn. Due to swift action limits.

Indeed, you would need to wait till the 3rd round to use it (2nd round if you were able to activate the style during surprise round).

You need 1 swift action to enter Kirin Style.
You need 1 swift action to make the knowledge check allowed by Kirin Style.
You need 1 swift action to add Int to damage for Kirin Strike.

Style Feats:

For centuries, great warriors have looked to nature and the multiverse to find inspiration in battle. Countless monastic and contemplative orders have crafted intricate unarmed fighting styles based on the deadliness and grace of natural and supernatural creatures. Although many such fighting techniques were created by secretive orders, they have since spread to practitioners the world over.

As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.

Kirin Strike:

Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Knowledge checks made to identify creatures, including the one Kirin Style allows. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2).

[Vince Frost]

No retry clause. A good note there.

A good reminder on Kirin Path movement.

As for entering Kirin Style, I could use Combat style Mastery to enter as a free action.

All your points Framane are well writen and very useful. Thank you.