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Can you use handle animal on an animal or creature with an int of 1 or 2 if that is hostile towards you? unfriendly? Indifferent? Friendly? Does it matter of the animal is domesticated or not?
I would rule that short term, handle animal would allow you to avoid making an animal more antagonistic. Making it friendly would take time (and probably food), weeks or so.
The very existence of wild empathy and charm animal would indicate that the creature has to be at least friendly to you. There's no point to the signature ability of rangers and druids otherwise, as using handle animal would give you more control over them faster, easier, and with far less investment.
Using wild empathy
--needs a dc 30ish check to take an animal off of hostile to leave you alone
-Starts at 3 less because it lacks the trained skill bonus
-takes 1 minute
-can't be maintained when you cross class (without some very odd abilities)
-is far harder to boost than a skill
Using handle animal without regard for the willingness of a creature to listen to you would
-Give you more control over a creature than the best possible wild empathy result.
-Give you more control over a creature than charm monster: Under charm animal/monster the creature not only gets a save, but if your new friend tells it to attack their old friend they don't.
-Is arguably better than dominate animal, because telling them to attack their old friend gives them a new save with a bonus (assuming their old friend didn't violate druid union rules)
-Pretty much ends any magical beast or animal encounter as anyone can order the creature down at mid levels.
Well, what about exclusive, which seems to have been the impetuous for allowing handle animal checks on other peoples critters?
from the handler who taught it this trick. If an animal
has both the exclusive and serve tricks, it takes directions
only from the handler that taught it the exclusive trick
and those creatures indicated by the trainer’s serve
command. An animal with the exclusive trick does not
take trick commands from others even if it is friendly
or helpful toward them (such as through the result of a
charm animal spell), though this does not prevent it from
being controlled by other enchantment spells (such as
dominate animal), and the animal still otherwise acts as a
friendly or helpful creature when applicable.
Note, even if it is friendly or helpful. That's what the trick is for: a partial defense against charms and wild empathy not an absolute requirement to stop strangers from making your own t rex attack you with a DC 10 check.
Wolf,
Did your last post have anything to do with my post?
Wolf,
Did your last post have anything to do with my post?
No, it took me longer than 18 minutes to write.
Cool, it just confused me a bit.
@Daw: It's because of my own thread here.
RAW, you can use Handle Animal as written. DC 10 against an animal that is trained in a trick, DC 25 against an animal not trained in a trick. +2 modifier to DC if injured.
RAI, it's pretty clear that DM adjudication is needed. Can a character with a massively high Handle Animal command a horse to throw its rider out of the saddle with a DC 25 Push check to Throw Rider? Can a character command a guard dog to stand down with a DC 10 check? It's up to the DM.
Agreed
@Daw: It's because of my own thread here.
It's come up a few times before, now three times this week.
"Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Frendly" are all levels of Diplomacy.
I would allow you using the DC Diplomacy plus the DC of the Handle Animal ability you wanted to use.
Handle Animal
This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows
So handling an animal that is Hostile to you (like getting a Guard Dog to "Down")would be...
(25 + creature's Cha modifier) + (Handle an animal 10) = 35+ChaPush an Animal
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing
So pushing an animal that is Frendly to you (like getting another party members mount to "attack") would be...
(10 + creature's Cha modifier) + (Push an animal 25) = 35+ChaOnly your animal would have the Helpful (DC O)Diplomacy.
It's come up a few times before, now three times this week.@Daw: It's because of my own thread here.
Search results don't show anything containing Handle Animal in the Rules Questions forum since Jan 20th until my thread. Was it in another forum?
Search results don't show anything containing Handle Animal in the Rules Questions forum since Jan 20th until my thread. Was it in another forum?
Here, facebook, the PFS forums (that might have been a while ago) , and once at a meatspace pfs game.
The existence of the "exclusive" trick leads me to believe that you absolutely could get a horse to throw its rider with a successful Handle Animal check.
Basically, you would be that guy in the movies who jumps out in front of the horse, spooking it into tossing its rider. :P
What is the trick that gets a horse to throw its rider? I am not seeing one on the list of tricks.The existence of the "exclusive" trick leads me to believe that you absolutely could get a horse to throw its rider with a successful Handle Animal check.
Basically, you would be that guy in the movies who jumps out in front of the horse, spooking it into tossing its rider. :P
Throw Rider is a trick in Animal Archive.
I've been involved in some of the prior discussions on this topic. The main areas of contention from my understanding:
- Wild Empathy and Handle Animal both exist and the logical case can be made that one limits the other, as well as the logical case that the abilities are limited to doing only what they say individually.
- Numerous tricks were added after the CRB, including Exclusive, which questions whether the existence of that trick indicates that Handle Animal always could be used against hostile animals or companions of other characters.
Point 1 is virtually always table variation. I feel as though I understand BNW's position - namely that Wild Empathy is a significant resource sink to use well and is significantly limited due to class restrictions, so it should be more powerful/impactful. My interpretation of the text for Wild Empathy and Handle Animal is that they are for separate and distinct purposes - Wild Empathy is the attitude adjustment aspect of Diplomacy, while Handle Animal includes the request aspect of Diplomacy. I think there's an ocean of opinions that span the gap between and a number of things that Handle Animal doesn't properly address, including "what is the duration of a pushed trick?". For example, if my animal companion has both Throw Rider and Exclusive, do I have to push it every round if I want to allow someone else to ride it with the Serve trick, assuming I didn't train the mount to have that as a permanent trick for the specific rider?
Point 2 is a philosophical debate about rules creep and how there are many things that people assume fall into existing rules, but then feats, class features, spells, or equipment suddenly upend that understanding. The Exclusive trick is a prime offender here. It was introduced in Animal Archive and, before it was released, a reasonable, logical case could be made that your animal companion couldn't be commanded by an enemy using Handle Animal if you had treated said companion well and it liked you. Its existence then makes you wonder if that assumption was always wrong. It's especially egregious when considering the implications of issuing the attack command against the owner vs flee, down, stay, etc. As written, Handle Animal doesn't account at all for the animal's attitude towards you or the target and that's a problem.
I think it's objectively reasonable to say that the GM can veto some particularly bad command choices (like "attack your master"). I think it's also objectively reasonable to say that the GM can place situational limitations on the use of Handle Animal. The scope of those limitations, though, is where the table variation comes into play.
It was introduced in Animal Archive and, before it was released, a reasonable, logical case could be made that your animal companion couldn't be commanded by an enemy using Handle Animal if you had treated said companion well and it liked you. Its existence then makes you wonder if that assumption was always wrong.
Which would mean.. yes. Someone else could make your animal friendly towards themselves and THEN command it. Exclusive being at least 90% of the argument for commanding someone elses critter states what it prevents: a someone with a FRIENDLY or helpful rating with your critter from giving it orders.
being able to command any critter doesn't just compete with wild empathy: it blows it out of the water. It's 10 times faster and gives you more control over the animal than charm person: you can't charm person someone into attacking their best friend, and running away to leave their friend behind is reaaaally pushing it. It completely obviates any need to make the critter friendly if it doesn't need to be friendly for you to make it do what you want.
That's very useful without being overpowered, it's handy without being "everyone absolutely must get this new trick" , its good without being game breaking, and fits in with the existing rules rather than creating a loophole that no one noticed for 15 years prior to the pet classes.
Throw Rider is a trick in Animal Archive.Ah yes. Never paid attention to that trick.
namely that Wild Empathy is a significant resource sink to useHow is it a resource sink? You mean in terms of taking 1 minute to use?
There are a number of feats that make it more usable, including Fast Empathy, which reduces it to a standard action. You're still looking at something with abysmal scaling on an off-stat for (I think) everyone that gets it. BNW certainly knows more about the ability than me, though, and may be more familiar with the resources surrounding it.
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It's not harder to make a wild tyrannosaurus sit down and shut up than it is to make a wild sloth do so.
Which makes me wonder if it's really supposed to work like that.
Sorry, I have to laugh at this. I find it humorous that this topic raises the red flag of plausibility or believability in the sea of things that are logically absurd. You know, like someone with 200 hit points fighting just effectively at 1 hit point as they do at 200 hps. Or, the fact that the average Commoner is just as agile in Full Plate as they are out of it. Or, a person with average Dexterity is no easier to hit if they are climbing a rope than if they are actively engaged in combat.
The list goes on.
I'm talking more from a game balance perspective. Encounter-ending abilities are usually not same-DC against opponents with CR 8 points apart.
There are a number of feats that make it more usable, including Fast Empathy, which reduces it to a standard action. You're still looking at something with abysmal scaling on an off-stat for (I think) everyone that gets it. BNW certainly knows more about the ability than me, though, and may be more familiar with the resources surrounding it.Fast Empathy isn't Core or even 3.5. When Wild Empathy was devised, there was nothing to invest in besides Charisma. So arguments that it takes heavy investment to make useful are invalid as that investment is aimed at making the ability excel at something that it was not intended to. Tantamount to trying to make your commuter car a 4x4 all-terrain vehicle and then complaining to the car manufacturer about the investment.
I honestly see Wild Empathy as more of a flavor/problem solver ability rather than some type of game changer/uber class ability, it's certainly no Flurry of Blows, or Studied Combat. As with Diplomacy, you're not going to use it to stop a fight that has started and only rarely to avoid one. And in most animal combat situations, it's often or order of magnitude to kill the animals than wait 1 minute to WE each one. Even when successful, leveraging WE in an adventure requires a tremendous amount of GM discretion, so it's totally unreliable as a means to accomplish anything.
Hold up, we can call something invalid because it's not more than 8 years old? Also, investing in Charisma is a heavy investment if that's not a primary stat for your class.
The existence of the "exclusive" trick leads me to believe that you absolutely could get a horse to throw its rider with a successful Handle Animal check.
Basically, you would be that guy in the movies who jumps out in front of the horse, spooking it into tossing its rider. :P
So, I teach my horse the throw rider trick, and the DC to spook my horse drops a whopping 15 points from 25 to 10?
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My perspective as a DM is that you should only be able to use Handle Animal on an animal that is "yours" - as in your own animal companion or an animal than you own (and feed and take care of), or an animal that you trained. You can absolutely not use it on an enemy's mount, animal companion or guard dog. Nor can you use it on some random wild animal that you meet, unless or until some special situation like magical compulsion or wild empathy makes it friendly to you.
Now, I realize that the description of the Handle Animal skill doesn't actually say any of these things. But I do feel strongly that it is implied (so RAI).
From the discussion in this and other recent thread, it seems obvious that any other interpretation is ill-considered and leads to many illogical and uninteded results.
So I encourage all DMs to use common sense. Yeah, that is a "thing", even in rules discussions. <g>
My interpretation regarding learned tricks is that if you don't know the specific command for that animal, you're pushing at the untrained DC. It doesn't matter if the animal has Throw Rider as a trick if you don't know how it was taught to do it.
Still eventually trivial, but definitely part of the table variation for the skill.
My interpretation regarding learned tricks is that if you don't know the specific command for that animal, you're pushing at the untrained DC. It doesn't matter if the animal has Throw Rider as a trick if you don't know how it was taught to do it.
Still eventually trivial, but definitely part of the table variation for the skill.
This is what I assumed when I mentioned throwing the rider in my previous post (I had forgotten that there was actually a specific trick for throwing riders). Your interpretation is also the way I'd run it in my games.