Blind Creatures and Illusions / Can Blind be Helpful?

[DaPenguins]

So first things first. There are three ways to 'blind' yourself in theory that are all temporary,
1 Put a blindfold over your eyes (Move action if you wear it as a bandana most of the time
2 Close your eyes (Some will tell me this does not work but here is my reason for believing it does. Blinded Blade Style ) If you don't think this works fine with me, ignore this way.
3 not have darkvision in a place with no light. Also slightly shaky ground but a possible way depending on GM.

Second and this is something I have read several posts on and have yet to see a definitive answer and I would love to get something more solid. Does being blind make you immune to illusions? I am almost 100% sure it does not make you immune to ALL illusions however it definitely makes you immune to a great deal of them specifically ones which rely on sight. Heck it even kinda makes you immune to invisibility because if you are blind you already cant see them... What I more ask here is is there a hard and fast rule in the blinded condition or being blind that says it gives you immunity to illusions. I know many people refference the Ooze creature type which says Oozes are blind and immune to illusions but if you finish that sentence it says "that are based on sight." Does this mean people have been reading Ooze wrong or am I reading it wrong?

Third and here is where I feel this thread will differ from the others. Blinded can be helpful in combat. Okay so not all that helpful but in niche areas it can make a fight much easier. Mirror Image an all to popular spell can make you only have a 1 in 9 chance of hitting your target, or a 1 in 2 chance if it is about to run out. Well what if for all attacks from everyone in melee you just make it act as displacement by closing your eyes. You open them at the end of your turn so you don't have the penalties outside of your turn. Or if you are facing an illusionist who uses spells like prismatic spray and color spray and other glamer/figment effects. You close your eyes when it is not your turn and open them on your turn. Oh no you loose AOOs and AC I say that can be a price worth paying for not being useless in combat for several rounds. Now this downgrades in usefulness if you don't like the whole close your eyes makes you blind thing.

So now that I have laid out my ideas here I want to know what people think of the following assertions.
1. If you are blind you are ONLY immune to visual based illusions and nothing else.
2. You are considered to be blind if you make a conscious effort to keep your eyes closed or block your vision. (Think of it as improved averting gaze for gaze attacks.)
3. Blindness can be useful.
Do you agree or disagree with anything presented above? These three statements I made are a TLDR and the highlights of things I want talked about.

[Andre Roy]

DaPenguins wrote:

1. If you are blind you are ONLY immune to visual based illusions and nothing else.

Here I am with you 100%. If you cannot perceive the illusion, you can't be affected by it. So a blind character (regardless of how he is not seeing) would be immune to visual-only illusion. If the illusion has a tactile or audible component, then the other sense would "overide" the immunity.

I would also exent this idea to Audible illusion not affecting someone who is deaf.

DaPenguins wrote:

2. You are considered to be blind if you make a conscious effort to keep your eyes closed or block your vision. (Think of it as improved averting gaze for gaze attacks.)

This is trickier. I agree with the core premise that making a concious effort to close your eyes to avoid gaze attack or illusion is a viable option. However, it's also distracting, as you need to concentrate and focus on not opening your eyes, especially if there a new sounds or under pain. So I could easily see having an aditional penalty for this distraction.

A blindfold would be a more efficient way to achieve this goal, despite the odd chance of accidentally slipping off.

DaPenguins wrote:

3. Blindness can be useful.

Yes, under certain condition, but not enough to make it something I would want to use as it's penalty still overweights the advantages you get.

[DaPenguins]

Andre Roy wrote:

DaPenguins wrote:

1. If you are blind you are ONLY immune to visual based illusions and nothing else.

Here I am with you 100%. If you cannot perceive the illusion, you can't be affected by it. So a blind character (regardless of how he is not seeing) would be immune to visual-only illusion. If the illusion has a tactile or audible component, then the other sense would "overide" the immunity.

I would also exent this idea to Audible illusion not affecting someone who is deaf.

DaPenguins wrote:

2. You are considered to be blind if you make a conscious effort to keep your eyes closed or block your vision. (Think of it as improved averting gaze for gaze attacks.)

This is trickier. I agree with the core premise that making a concious effort to close your eyes to avoid gaze attack or illusion is a viable option. However, it's also distracting, as you need to concentrate and focus on not opening your eyes, especially if there a new sounds or under pain. So I could easily see having an aditional penalty for this distraction.

A blindfold would be a more efficient way to achieve this goal, despite the odd chance of accidentally slipping off.

DaPenguins wrote:

3. Blindness can be useful.

Yes, under certain condition, but not enough to make it something I would want to use as it's penalty still overweights the advantages you get.

So Cool I got no beef with how you interpret 1 or 2 but assume you can count closing your eyes on just your turn it reduces mirror image to displacement with no other penalties on your turn really, as long as you open your eyes back up before you end your turn which should be a free action then guess what. Instead of your 2-4 attacks being at a 1 in five or nine chance of hitting your mark to a 1 in 2 shot of hitting your mark on every hit. This is true it is only a single use of it but considering how many monsters at high level have this spell and how important it is to casters well... It feels worthwhile. As for the penalties for closing your eyes only on your turn it means you dont move more than half speed and have a 50% miss chance. No penalty on attack rolls other than that 50% miss chance and no penalty on damage. Really I don't see any massive penalties save for the massive AC penalties.

[Andre Roy]

I could see that advantage with Mirror Image where you try to pintpoint your opponent by sound only and not by sight, thus avoiding the extra image.

But more generally speaking when faced with an illusion caster or illusion spell, I see 2 questions:

1) Would you be able to recognize the spell and close your eyes fast enough to avoid it's effect?

2) And if it has a lingering effect over several rounds, would opening your eyes at the end of your turn nullify the benefit of having your eyes closed in subsequent ronds as you now have a mental image of that illusion even after you closed your eyes again?

[The Shaman]

I always found it a cool idea that a character faced by mirror image could just close his eyes and go with his gut.

[Snowlilly]

The Shaman wrote:

I always found it a cool interaction that a character faced by mirror image could just close his eyes and go with his gut.

Beware readied actions.

[Cevah]

Opening/closing your eyes during your turn and not during others is generally considered cheesy. It may be legal, but you are gaming the system.

I think it should be played like Power Attack: Make a decision, and it applied until the start of your next turn. If you close your eyes to hit the mirror image, they get to hit you with no dex since you cannot react to their attack. Risky if there is an enemy rogue in the area.

/cevah

[The Raven Black]

Cevah wrote:

Opening/closing your eyes during your turn and not during others is generally considered cheesy. It may be legal, but you are gaming the system.

I think it should be played like Power Attack: Make a decision, and it applied until the start of your next turn. If you close your eyes to hit the mirror image, they get to hit you with no dex since you cannot react to their attack. Risky if there is an enemy rogue in the area.

/cevah

I would rather rule that the enemies understand what you are doing and adapt their tactics accordingly, for example by readying an action to attack you just before you attack with your eyes closed

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

DaPenguins wrote:

So first things first. There are three ways to 'blind' yourself in theory that are all temporary,

1 Put a blindfold over your eyes (Move action if you wear it as a bandana most of the time
2 Close your eyes (Some will tell me this does not work but here is my reason for believing it does. Blinded Blade Style ) If you don't think this works fine with me, ignore this way.
3 not have darkvision in a place with no light. Also slightly shaky ground but a possible way depending on GM.

Second and this is something I have read several posts on and have yet to see a definitive answer and I would love to get something more solid. Does being blind make you immune to illusions? I am almost 100% sure it does not make you immune to ALL illusions however it definitely makes you immune to a great deal of them specifically ones which rely on sight. Heck it even kinda makes you immune to invisibility because if you are blind you already cant see them... What I more ask here is is there a hard and fast rule in the blinded condition or being blind that says it gives you immunity to illusions. I know many people refference the Ooze creature type which says Oozes are blind and immune to illusions but if you finish that sentence it says "that are based on sight." Does this mean people have been reading Ooze wrong or am I reading it wrong?

Third and here is where I feel this thread will differ from the others. Blinded can be helpful in combat. Okay so not all that helpful but in niche areas it can make a fight much easier. Mirror Image an all to popular spell can make you only have a 1 in 9 chance of hitting your target, or a 1 in 2 chance if it is about to run out. Well what if for all attacks from everyone in melee you just make it act as displacement by closing your eyes. You open them at the end of your turn so you don't have the penalties outside of your turn. Or if you are facing an illusionist who uses spells like prismatic spray...

Depends... and NO.

If a blind person encountered an illusory wall they do not automatically walk through it. The moment they interact with it (touching it with a cane, or outstretched palm) they would be interacting with it and would need to make a will save to disbelieve. If they make the will save they are able to proceed, if they fail then their mind still believes they are touching a wall and would not be able to pass through it.

Same would apply for other types of illusions that still possess an imaginary physical structure with a failed save. Now, if we are talking illusion that has no sound component and is essentially a hologram with no physical form even imagined with a failed save, then yes you would pass through it and wouldn't even suspect it was there.

As for Mirror Image, it does specifically call out how it is treated while unable to see the effect. The question comes into play as to whether the GM will say you are truly blind or if you still have a mental picture of multiple foes and therefore still have a chance to hit one of the false images. This SHOULD be up to the GM to call as there are no clear rules for this exact situation, which is exactly when a GM's discretion is supposed to come into play.