So I was recently thinking how much I loved how counterspelling was integrated as a spell in 5e and how better it actually is. The existence of counterspell as a spell, while giving a potent tool for casters, allows for more tools against enemy spellcasting other than 'Just soak the spell and put up with it'. It made spellcasters less powerful overall by really weakening their overall presence. Basically, a mage fight ends up being a series of counterspells and misdirections, and that's really fun.
So I've decided to integrate counterspelling into a spell which functions as an immediate action, slightly more difficult dispel magic effect. Question is, are the mechanics sound? Is it too easy? What problems might be worth being aware of?
Changes I'll be using for an upcoming game. They don't actually have a full caster, so the latest they will have access to it is 7th from the two bards.
Can no longer counterspell. Instead, counterspell has been made into a separate spell.
Rings of Counterspell are instead rings with 3 charges of the spell counterspell which block any incoming spell of your choosing, though at a -5 penalty unless you identify the spell. The caster level of the counterspell uses your hit dice instead of the ring’s CL. Once used, the ring burns out. Cost TBH
The arcanist exploit Counterspell functions as normal.
[bigger]New Spells[bigger]
Counterspell
School abjuration; Level antipaladin 3, bard 3, bloodrager 3, cleric/oracle 4, druid 5, inquisitor 4, magus 3, medium 3, mesmerist 3, paladin 3, ranger 3, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, spiritualist 4, summoner/unchained summoner 3, psychic 3, witch 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components S
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature casting any spell or spell-like ability
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You can stop magic before it even manifests. When a creature uses a spell or spell-like ability, including spells cast from magic items but not supernatural abilities that replicate spells, you can cast this spell as an immediate action just before the spell manifests, but while it is still being cast.
You must make a Spellcraft check to identify the targeted spell as you cast counterspell. If successful, you must then make a caster level check (d20+caster level) against a DC of 15 + the targeted spell’s level. On a success, the targeted spell is disrupted, causing no effect and dissipating harmlessly. If you fail the Spellcraft check to identify the spell, you can still attempt to disrupt it but at a -5 penalty.
This spell cannot affect any spell that has already manifested or currently taking effect, such as a fireball that was cast outside of line of sight but affecting an area within line of effect, or a wall of fire that is already in effect. This spell can only dispel spells while they are being cast but before the spell takes effect, and after any concentration checks for casting defensively or from damage is made by the caster.
Having a counterspell spell is pretty neat but I do have a few thoughts and questions on it.
First and foremost I'd like to recommend perhaps changing the DC to what Dispel Magic uses when used to counterspell. As is a 3rd level spells cast by a 5th level Wizard and a 20th level Wizard are just as easy to counterspell. As well the curve(or whatever you want to call it) with the current DC at 5th it starts at 60% chance to fail against a 3rd level spell , but at 20th against a 9th level spell you have only a 15% chance to fail. This could horrifically neuter things like Lichs against a party that has more than one caster.
Second I think that for Druids it should be 4th level, and for Inquisitors, and Spiritualists that it should be 3rd level. With how major counterspelling would become getting it 4-5 later than the wizard when casting is a big part of your class just seems painful, especially when you're getting it as the same time as things like Paladins and Rangers. Also don't see Occultists listed as gaining Counterspell, I'm guessing just one of those oops I missed it things seeing as every other caster gets it.
Third, doesn't the spell Lesser Globe of Invulnerability almost completely shut down Counterspelling seeing as for most characters it is a 3rd level spell?
Finally I see this as a far more useful tool for NPCs than PCs. BBEG has a few minion casters who can support them with spells and then spam counterspell whenever a PC tries to cast anything. As well any "boss tier" casters could just rain on the PCs parades with ease, well more so than usual.
Actually not quite finally. Would counterspelling count as an attack for invisibility or could an invisible caster just follow the party messing with their spells until they run out of counterspells?
The caster level check DC should be 11 + caster level, not 15 + spell level. The former uses the same math as the dispel magic spell while the latter makes it way too easy for any spellcaster to counter a high level spell. It's also ridiculous that a counterspell attempt is determined by the counterspeller's CL but not the target spellcaster's CL.
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Can I cast counterspell to counter my enemy's counterspell? At that point we've both used immediate actions so that should terminate the chain. Net result is that the original spell goes off and we both lose a 3rd level slot.
Saperaud has a very valid point about lesser globe of invulnerability. Maybe the spell should target spells, not casters.
Having a counterspell spell is pretty neat but I do have a few thoughts and questions on it.
First and foremost I'd like to recommend perhaps changing the DC to what Dispel Magic uses when used to counterspell. As is a 3rd level spells cast by a 5th level Wizard and a 20th level Wizard are just as easy to counterspell. As well the curve(or whatever you want to call it) with the current DC at 5th it starts at 60% chance to fail against a 3rd level spell , but at 20th against a 9th level spell you have only a 15% chance to fail. This could horrifically neuter things like Lichs against a party that has more than one caster.
A fair point. I was thinking it was too easy overall, so I would say changing it to a DC of 11+caster level might help it curve out more easily. Thanks muchly for the suggestion!
Second I think that for Druids it should be 4th level, and for Inquisitors, and Spiritualists that it should be 3rd level. With how major counterspelling would become getting it 4-5 later than the wizard when casting is a big part of your class just seems painful, especially when you're getting it as the same time as things like Paladins and Rangers. Also don't see Occultists listed as gaining Counterspell, I'm guessing just one of those oops I missed it things seeing as every other caster gets it.
Fair point. I did want to give counterspell to divine casters at a later level, since most get access to Silence as an anti-casting tool. Druids get Dispel Magic later, so I thought I'd keep it consistent? Thinking on it, that's kind of silly.
Third, doesn't the spell Lesser Globe of Invulnerability almost completely shut down Counterspelling seeing as for most characters it is a 3rd level spell?
I suppose so. Globe can still be dispelled though, though there is nothing stopping the spellcaster in the globe from counterspelling other casters, which would end up with a spellcaster that was quite invincible. I think I might change the target to the spell, as ryric suggests.
Finally I see this as a far more useful tool for NPCs than PCs. BBEG has a few minion casters who can support them with spells and then spam counterspell whenever a PC tries to cast anything. As well any "boss tier" casters could just rain on the PCs parades with ease, well more so than usual.
That is a fairly nasty situation, I'll grant you, but I would expect that a group of multiple 3rd-4th level spellcasters along with one boss monster would have been a horrifically deadly combat whichever way.
Actually not quite finally. Would counterspelling count as an attack for invisibility or could an invisible caster just follow the party messing with their spells until they run out of counterspells?
I would think so, yes. Since it's targeting a creature offensively, I would say it would prevent an invisible caster from endlessly counterspelling. If it was changed to target spells, I would probably add a line that states that it counts as an attack.
What about Dispel Magic and its Greater version? Don't bother with them because they require to ready an action? Or is that what you mean by removal?
Both those spells still exist. You just can't use them for counterspelling by readying an action. Neither can you ready to cast an identical spell to counterspell.
Can I cast counterspell to counter my enemy's counterspell? At that point we've both used immediate actions so that should terminate the chain. Net result is that the original spell goes off and we both lose a 3rd level slot.
The net result is weaker action economy. Yes, you can counterspell a counterspell. But then you don't get a quickened spell. You're kinda forced to use counterspells over something else at that point. And that's assuming you beat your opponents dispel DC.
Looks you could add a material component. Something black, ebony or jet.
A lich could have 2 apprentices, each with a ring of dispelling. A lich has spellbooks, their only use might be a bribe for followers and friends.
The way I understand it, it only stops spells when they start. For ongoing invisibility you need dispel magic. If someone already invisible tries to cast a spell, you have to target the 5 foot square.
How about the following: remove dispel magic, greater dispel magic, and mage's disjunction, but replace them with dispel magic I (short range, 2nd-level), dispel magic II (the original version, 3rd-level), dispel magic III (targeted dispel affects one spell per four levels, 4th-level), dispel magic IV (targeted dispel can affect curses, can area dispel, but only 1d4 spells, 5th-level), dispel magic V (the greater dispel magic version, 6th-level), etc. and allow undercasting, but they cannot dispel or counter spells/effects that exceed their spell level. To dispel or counter a spell/effect with dispel magic requires a Spellcraft check against DC 15 + caster level of the spell/effect.
A counterspell spell is just too specialized, IMO. Also, allowing an automatic counterspell via dispel magic, rather than the exact spell or (with Improved Counterspell) a spell of the same school at least one level higher, makes it dispel magic powerful. Making it a Spellcraft check instead of a caster level check will make it easier to succeed (even with the higher DC), but still not be automatic (unless the character invests resources to really pump Spellcraft).