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No.
If it helps, imagine the fluff of Hatred as saying "you were raised in a culture with a specific bias against goblinoids, so your combat training included special training for fighting them." Just because you know how to fight goblins and orcs better than anything else doesn't mean you must fight every goblin and orc you see.
It would also be a good fit for the character to trade that out.
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A good way to look at it would be that Hatred is not a moral bonus, you do not get the bonus because you hate them, it is because you were trained by those who hated them and know the best way to fight a goblin/orc. Just because you do not act on prejudice toward goblins does not mean you forget how all goblins have a weak spot right below the third rib.
Regard "should the Paladin fall" from the perspective of a quasi-omniscient being, not from the perspective of a code with no allowance for nuance.
Reasonable questions to ask are things like "did the Paladin have a choice", "does the Paladin have a valid excuse" etc.
Ragathiel probably isn't going to be mad at you for defending yourself effectively if you are attacked. Probably won't be mad at you if you fight the Orc in order to defend people who the orc is threatening, either. If the Dwarf goes and murders a whole village worth of goblin children though? That's going to be trouble.
Most often the answer to any "should the paladin fall?" question is no.
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b) you notice there's no such thing as 'hatred' for orcs, right? orcs and half-orcs may get all kinds of rage powers and feats and whatnot, but never anything specific against dwarves...
Because Orcs and Half-Orcs are equal opportunity aggressors.
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Tor lorek san, bor nakka mur,
Natromo faan tornek wot ur.
Ter Lantern ker lo Abin Sur,
Taan lek lek nok--Formorrow Sur!
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Ragathiel's Paladin Code: Redemption finds hearts from even the cruelest origins. I will strive not to act upon prejudice against fellow mortals based on race or origin.Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.Would a dwarf paladin of Ragathiel be in danger of falling if they used their racial Hatred ability?
No. And the ability is passive, not something they turn on and off. It's basically special training given to dwarves based on past negative encounters with orcs and goblins.
Regarding the paladin code, you'd be in the clear, unless you allowed your hatred to bias your actions with orcs and goblins.
And as an aside, Mortals is a pretty broad group. Pretty sure that includes aberations and probably a ton of other assumed evil groups. I'd consider a different deity for my Paladin Code, as this one seems really tough.
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You don't want to play a Paladin of Ragathiel who is a missionary to the Aboleths?
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Ragathiel's code isn't about being nice or not hating others. It's about not judging someone based solely on what they are, just as he was judged for his heritage. Don't kill an Orc because he's an Orc, that's wrong. But if he does something to prove he's evil, Ragathiel wants you to DESTROY him, and anyone that worked with him, using any tool you have available.
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http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ragathiel
Not sure where he's getting a paladin code, other than the CRB one. Though reading his deific obedience, sounds more like an evil deity than a supposed LG one. Requires living sacrifices every day to maintain. Kinda surprised he's PFS legal...
http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ragathiel
Not sure where he's getting a paladin code, other than the CRB one. Though reading his deific obedience, sounds more like an evil deity than a supposed LG one. Requires living sacrifices every day to maintain. Kinda surprised he's PFS legal...
You could interpret it as "kill someone who is absolutely-for-sure-no-backsies evil, and say a prayer to Ragathiel" and the first part of that is something that a lot of adventurers do every day and no one thinks they're evil.
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You could interpret it as "kill someone who is absolutely-for-sure-no-backsies evil, and say a prayer to Ragathiel" and the first part of that is something that a lot of adventurers do every day and no one thinks they're evil.
He's described as a deity of vengeance (not justice, but vengeance). His followers include the "Crimson Templars" which are described as "Ruthless Assassins willing to kill in the name of good..."
What it says is that you must kill someone that committed unlawful OR evil deeds. And since the obedience is something you plan to do each day, this is premediation, not self defense. A follower of this deity is looking for someone to kill, each and every day, in order to meet their obedience. Even if they kill for "good reasons" it remains very iffy in my book.
I understand that he's not an evil deity in that he should be considered an ally with the other evil deities, but the descriptions I'm reading really push the limits of what an Good Deity should be doing. Sounds more like evil in the name of good, rather than actual good. Seems like the kinda guy that thinks fighting evil with evil results in good. Surprised he doesn't have an anti-paladin code...
The thing that stands out about Ragathiel's Deific Obedience is that it's not a thing you can really plan on doing every day. Sometimes adventurers are going to have days where they don't plan on killing anyone- they're recuperating from injuries, traveling, shopping for clothes, just want to read a book for once, etc.
It's not like a lot of Deific Obediences where you can do them every day without a lot of hassle- Torag (bang on an anvil for 10 minutes, say a prayer, and maintain your gear), Irori (practice, read something, braid your hair), Pharasma (ask around who died/was born, lay out some bones, say a prayer), Gozreh (hang some chimes, say a prayer, drink some water, pour some water on your head), etc.
I get that Obediences really only give you a benefit on days you don't do them, I just wonder about devout followers of Ragathiel on long ocean voyages who don't really have the opportunity to kill anybody and probably shouldn't attempt to create such an opportunity.
Yeah, I don't really see PCs with Obediences as addicts desperately trying to get their fix. If there's nothing evil around to kill, (probably caused you already killed all the evil things) that's actually a good thing.
In that case, you want to be sure that the character is not built to depend too much on the obedience for his abilities. In other words, a character with Celestial Obedience (Ragathiel) probably should not take levels in the Mystery Cultist prestige class.
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Yeah, I don't really see PCs with Obediences as addicts desperately trying to get their fix. If there's nothing evil around to kill, (probably caused you already killed all the evil things) that's actually a good thing.
This is probably a thing worth making explicit to players who are thinking of taking any of the more extreme obediences. Just make it clear that "you don't have to do it every day; your god won't mind" to avert any "dude, what the hell?!?" situations that might erupt at the table.
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So actively seeking out the agents of evil (cultists of Urgathoa, Rovagug, Zyphus, etc., bandits terrorizing major trade routes, evil wizards plotting the end of the world) and killing them is not a good action to you Murdock?
Planning to fight against the forces of evil, to defend the innocent, to protect civilzation and goodness, that all sounds like lawful good paladin stuff.
Planning to kill someone, that sounds evil. Doesn't matter if you plan to find someone deserving, that sounds evil. Planning to kill someone, is premediated murder. It ceases to be self defense when you plan on doing it.
Even Norgorber's Defic obedience doesn't require killing someone, and he's a god of murder.
And the whole every day bit is because the Feat accociated grants daily bonuses, and the related prestige class requires daily use of the feat or loss of all class features. So as I read it, They are junkies to a certain degree.
For extra clarity:
Planning to defeat the forces of evil is good behaviour. You offer terms of surrender, attempt diplomacy and if it all fails, they may die in conflict, but you are NOT there to bring death, you are there to defeat them because what they are doing is wrong and needs stopping. An indeal resolution is that their defeat results in them reconsidering their evil ways, and repenting or redeeming themselves.
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... what?
Planning to "fight" evil people is good, but planning to kill evil people is evil? Dafuq?
Also, short of Paladins of Shelyn or Sarenrae, Paladins are under absolutely no obligation to go out of their way to redeem or even non-lethally apprehend evil doers.
ah, so, you're saying that if a demagogue bard used his incite violence power against a dwarf paladin of Ragathiel (who fell for it) against 'all orcs', that paladin would be in trouble. However, if the group of dwarves who were originally incited kept up the tradition of violence against orcs for thousands of years and taught all their kids how to smoosh orcs better than they normally would as a result, that's okay then.
That's not it at all. Dwarves know how to take advantage of certain anatomical weaknesses of orcs and goblins; this doesn't mean they're always prejudiced (although the anti-orc/anti-goblin training they got might've stemmed from prejudice), it just means they know more about how to fight orcs and goblins than how to fight other things. Prejudice is making character assumptions based on physical attributes-- a paladin of Ragathiel can't immediately suspect the orc of being the killer (all else being equal), but he can use what he knows about orcs in a fight.
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... what?
Planning to "fight" evil people is good, but planning to kill evil people is evil? Dafuq?
Also, short of Paladins of Shelyn or Sarenrae, Paladins are under absolutely no obligation to go out of their way to redeem or even non-lethally apprehend evil doers.
I don't mean to drag on about the nature of good and evil.
Should look up the definition of a Serial killer. If you think a serial killer that only murders evil characters is okay by the good alignment, then I guess I agree with your understanding of this. Sounds off, but if that's okay in your eyes, then I'm clearly thinking of something else when I think of a good alignment.
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Yeah, it's not like Paladin get training with martial weapons and the power to Smite Evil. Must be some crazy 3rd party archetype that replaces the CRB Paladin's "Give Friendship Hug" and "Love and Forgiveness Rainbow" powers.
ah, so, you're saying that if a demagogue bard used his incite violence power against a dwarf paladin of Ragathiel (who fell for it) against 'all orcs', that paladin would be in trouble. However, if the group of dwarves who were originally incited kept up the tradition of violence against orcs for thousands of years and taught all their kids how to smoosh orcs better than they normally would as a result, that's okay then.That's not it at all. Dwarves know how to take advantage of certain anatomical weaknesses of orcs and goblins; this doesn't mean they're always prejudiced (although the anti-orc/anti-goblin training they got might've stemmed from prejudice), it just means they know more about how to fight orcs and goblins than how to fight other things. Prejudice is making character assumptions based on physical attributes-- a paladin of Ragathiel can't immediately suspect the orc of being the killer (all else being equal), but he can use what he knows about orcs in a fight.
Yeah, that comparison the OP used made no sense. Being taught by bigots does not mean you're a bigot. I mean, come on.
If you look at the GOOD gods, you'll see a lot of stuff that many/some don't associate with good. So it just means that GOOD isn't the same as our good, or that our good isn't the only thing that counts as GOOD.
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So Murdock, are all the crusaders going to Mendev fight at the World Wound evil serial killers to you? After all, they are planning to go to the World Wound and kill demons. Thats premeditated murder based on what you said earlier.
Oh, and about what you said about Norgorber's Obeidience. He is not just the "god of murder" that is one of his 4 different aspects he is revered in, and the least populous one at that. So it makes perfect sense that his obeidience would not require murder, as most of his worshipers don't follow the Father Skinsaw apsect.
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Excuse me, I don't want to be a bother but can you please stop being evil? I would kill you but that would make me fall so all I am left with is motherly nagging.
And now if we can open another can of worms...
What about that paladin code with this dwarven ability:
Lasting Grudge: Dwarves are notorious for their long-lasting grudges. Those who live up to this racial reputation gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against any individual creature that has attacked them 1 day ago or longer. This racial trait replaces defensive training and hatred. Source PCS:ISR
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Excuse me, I don't want to be a bother but can you please stop being evil? I would kill you but that would make me fall so all I am left with is motherly nagging.
Damn, my paladin really should've tried that on Karzoug before fighting him in Runelords. Guess he falls now. Should've just kept trying to convince him not to be evil while he conquered the world.
And now if we can open another can of worms...
What about that paladin code with this dwarven ability:
Lasting Grudge: Dwarves are notorious for their long-lasting grudges. Those who live up to this racial reputation gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against any individual creature that has attacked them 1 day ago or longer. This racial trait replaces defensive training and hatred. Source PCS:ISR
Caused by an actual wrong committed by an individual recently, ergo not based on racism or any "ism" in general, therefore completely fine. After all, Ragathiel is the Archangel of vengeance; it would be quite odd if he did not allow his followers to engage in it.
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Caused by an actual wrong committed by an individual recently, ergo not based on racism or any "ism" in general, therefore completely fine. After all, Ragathiel is the Archangel of vengeance; it would be quite odd if he did not allow his followers to engage in it.
Exactly.
There is a clear distinction between the unjustified prejudice which Ragathiel's code forbids and the righteous vengeance which Ragathiel's code demands.
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So Murdock, are all the crusaders going to Mendev fight at the World Wound evil serial killers to you? After all, they are planning to go to the World Wound and kill demons. Thats premeditated murder based on what you said earlier.
Again, there is a difference between fighting to stop evil and planning to kill people because they fit a certain profile.
There is the Low Templar prestige class for those that fight in Mendev for reasons other than Goodness or restoring the balance/order to the world.
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Anyway, as to the OP. On the one hand, I definitely see your point. You could choose to swap out the racial trait for another that doesn't focus on hatred. Stoic Negotiator or Industrous Urbanite would replace it with a non-prejudiced racial trait.
On the otherhand, Dwarves are known for their grudges. Perhaps this is something more suited to role playing. Could role play the tear between doing what comes naturally to you as a dwarf, and following your faith. Could be fun.
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Dwarves make great paladins of ragathiel.
"hello! thing with teeth! I realize most of your kind are evil but maybe you're an excep...
Well.. that woulda killed a uman but i'm a dwarf. We have TWO livers! Since you actually ARE evil
AXE TO THE HEAD CRIT!
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So Murdock, are all the crusaders going to Mendev fight at the World Wound evil serial killers to you? After all, they are planning to go to the World Wound and kill demons. Thats premeditated murder based on what you said earlier.
Again, there is a difference between fighting to stop evil and planning to kill people because they fit a certain profile.
There is the Low Templar prestige class for those that fight in Mendev for reasons other than Goodness or restoring the balance/order to the world.
Note to self: no longer allowed to kill Followers of Socothbenoth on sight because profiling is bad.
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I mean, isn't this kind of why Paladins have unlimited at will "detect evil"?
IRL profiling is bad both because it reinforces societal inequalities, but mostly because it doesn't actually work.
At least "Detect Evil" is fairly reliable.
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Note to self: no longer allowed to kill Followers of Socothbenoth on sight because profiling is bad.
As a paladin, no killing anyone on sight. Paladins shouldn't be focused on killing. Just because they can kill, doesn't mean they should kill.
Though the profiling aspect is in regard to the OP's question regarding their specific deity, which is opposed to prejudice. A normal paladin is not restricted this way.
I will note that just because a normal paladin isn't focused on killing and doesn't kill on sight, doesn't mean they can't draw their weapons or prepared to defend themselves (or their allies) when presented with a potential opponent.
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Note to self: no longer allowed to kill Followers of Socothbenoth on sight because profiling is bad.As a paladin, no killing anyone on sight. Paladins shouldn't be focused on killing. Just because they can kill, doesn't mean they should kill.
Though the profiling aspect is in regard to the OP's question regarding their specific deity, which is opposed to prejudice. A normal paladin is not restricted this way.
I will note that just because a normal paladin isn't focused on killing and doesn't kill on sight, doesn't mean they can't draw their weapons or prepared to defend themselves (or their allies) when presented with a potential opponent.
Um yes there are things you very much can kill on sight, followers of the Demon Lord of RAPE meet that criteria.