Is Mind Thrust VI the best combat maneuver buff to a party member?


Advice


Mind Thrust VI, in addition to delivering some incidental damage, does this.

Quote:
This functions as mind thrust IV, but the target takes 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d8) and is exhausted and stunned for 1 round if it fails its save. This spell can be undercast.

I've always wonder what the point of exhaustion is if you're already stunned, given that you already lost your Dex bonus and can't attack or charge anyway. Then I remembered a reason for why the additional strength and dexterity penalty matter: CMD!

So the cumulative penalties to your CMD from getting hit by this are:

-3 to -6 from exhausted (-6 penalties to both Str and Dex; Dex penalty only applies if it pushes the target into a Dex less than 10, as stunned removes any bonuses that would have otherwise been reduced)
-2 AC from stunned
-X Dex penalty from stunned

Additionally, the attacker gets a +4 to perform a manuever due to the stunned condition.

So cumulatively this combo makes the target suffer an effective penalty of -(9 + [Lost Dex bonus or penalty to Dex of up to 3) to its CMD. That's pretty good! For high Dex monster that fail the save that's going to take a lot of them from LOL, NO, STOP TRYING TO TICKLE ME to OH, GOD, PLEASE STOP BULL RUSHING MEeeeeee(splat).

Is there anything else as good for setting up a combat maneuver from a buddy?

(Edited to note that Dex penalty from exhausted will only apply if the target has an average to low Dex, as the exhausted penalty won't stack with the lost dex bonus, if any, from stunned).

Silver Crusade Contributor

In addition, if their Dex is low enough to start with, the -6 from exhausted might push them into Dex-penalty-to-AC territory - which would go fine with stunning.


Kalindlara wrote:
In addition, if their Dex is low enough to start with, the -6 from exhausted might push them into Dex-penalty-to-AC territory - which would go fine with stunning.

Right, I was assuming the exhausted penalty to dex would always apply an additional -3, but that's not true if they have a bonus greater than +3 that they lose to being stunned). So it's only +3 better than base stunned, with some potential edge cases for being better against creatures with low/average Dex that wouldn't otherwise suffer from losing their Dex bonus.


Can't you just kill them? Stunned = coup de grace, dead.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Letric wrote:
Can't you just kill them? Stunned = coup de grace, dead.

Not how it works, unfortunately. There's a feat for that, though.


I was just glad to find that Exhausted wasn't an entirely useless additional effect. Now if someone could only explain why Telekinetic Storm makes a target stunned AND dazed... (Yes, I know many things are immune to stun but almost nothing is immune to dazed, but c'mon...)

Designer

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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
I was just glad to find that Exhausted wasn't an entirely useless additional effect. Now if someone could only explain why Telekinetic Storm makes a target stunned AND dazed... (Yes, I know many things are immune to stun but almost nothing is immune to dazed, but c'mon...)

That's why; it initially just made them stunned, and during a development, I added "and dazed" because it seemed appropriate for a 9th-level spell to be harder to be immune, while still keeping the nastier effect if you aren't immune to stun.

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