This is a homebrew archetype for alchemist. Please let me know what you think about it.
Sneak Attack: replaces bomb class feature same damage progression
Powerful Poisons: replaces poison resist +2 with an increase to poison save DCs of poisons crafted by the alchemist by +2, replaces resist +4 with DC+4, resist +6 with DC +6, and replaces poison immunity with bypass immunity which lowers a creatures resistance to poisons created by the alchemist by one step, from immune to +6, +6 to +4, +4 to +2, or +2 to none, if a creature has no resistance to poisons this has no added benefit.
Fast Stealth: can select the fast stealth rogue talent in place of a discovery.
Perfect vulnerability: can select the perfect vulnerability vigilante talent in place of a discovery once level 8 or higher.
I had an idea for a poisoner alchemist where you replace the bomb feature with poison that deals hit point damage. Every day he prepares a certain number of poisons that he can apply to a weapons, drop into food, etc. A "bomb" applied to a weapon would deal normal weapon damage, plus "bomb" damage (no splash though). A poison dropped in food or drink (probably using Slight of Hand) would just deal poison damage. I would avoid the inhaled poisons unless its done using one or more discoveries. Other discoveries could add additonal poison effects, make certain creatures susceptible to your poison (undead, oozes).
As for your idea, I think that increasing the DC at such a high rate is pretty powerful, and also that a poisoner would probably want to remain resistant to poisons.
How about still removing the resistances and immunity, keeping the bypass ability, but making the DC increase progress at +1 per 4 alchemist levels? That way poisons can still have a decent DC at late levels but don't spike up to that DC so fast.
Oh, and I also had an idea for a custom wondrous item for an alchemist based off of the Beneficial Bandolier. Instead of it holding ammunition, have it hold extracts, potions, poisons, and splash weapons with a 200 item capacity just like the beneficial bandolier and just like that item, retrieving items from it would be a swift action.
Here's what I came up with. Still needs polishing, and input on what it too good or not good enough. I feel that its not quite as good as normal bombs. It's not quite what you had in mind, but its still poison-based.
Poisoner (alchemist)
Skills: A poisoner adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Stealth (Dex) to his list of class skills.
Toxin (Ex): A poisoner can mix innocuous ingredients and infuse them with his magical reserves to create deadly toxins. A poisoner can use a number of toxins each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. They cannot be created in larger quantities for future use. The poisoner keeps each dose of toxin in a small vial. He can create toxins from small amounts of chemicals found in an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most poisoners prepare a number of doses of toxin at the start of the day equal to the total number they can use each day. A poisoner's toxins are unusable by anyone but the poisoner.
Using a toxin is normally a standard action. A poison inflicts 1d6 points of damage + the poisoner's Intelligence modifier damage. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike. The damage of his toxins increase by +1d6 points at every odd-numbered poisoner level. Creatures immune to poison are also immune to this damage. The Fortitude DC of any saving throw allowed by a poisoner's poison is 10 + 1/2 the poisoner's level + his Intelligence modifier. Bonuses on saving throws against poison apply to the save. A poisoner can always make a saving throw to halve the damage is he is affected by his own poison. Multiple doses of toxin have no additional effect, but they can be used in conjunction with a normal poison.
A dose of poison can be used in one of three ways:
-Ingested: The poisoner puts a dose of toxin in food or drink. He can make a Slight of Hand skill check to do so unnoticed as part of the same action. The damage is dealt to the first creature to ingest it 1d4 minutes later. Anyone else who ingests the food or drink takes the minimum amount of damage, but can negate it with a successful Fortitude save. A dose of poison in food or drink becomes inert after 1 hour.
-Inhaled: The poisoner can hurl a vial of toxin, causing it to break on impact. It has a range of 10 feet and functions as a thrown splash weapon. A creature struck by the vial takes the damage. Creatures caught in the splash radius takes the minimum amount of damage, but can negate it with a successful save. An inhaled toxin has no effect on creatures that do not breathe.
-Injected: The poisoner can apply a dose of toxin on one of his weapons. He can make a Slight of Hand skill check to do so unnoticed as part of the same action. The damage is dealt to the first creature dealt damage by the weapon. A dose of poison on a weapon becomes inert after 1 minute. A toxin is treated as a poison for the purpose of what kind of action is required to apply it to a weapon.
This replaces bomb.
I'd like to replace Throw Anything, but not sure what with.
Throw Anything works with the {I]Inhaled[/I] toxin option. Maybe replace it with Improved Feint or Improved Steal? Maybe Improved Dirty Tricks?
Skill Focus Sleight of Hand?
Weapon Focus that only works on weapons that are poisoned? Something situational AND flexible.
Personally, I don't like it. You aren't really making a poisoner, you are simply trying to give an alternate method to apply sneak attack, and adding your Int bonus onto the Sneak Attack damage. None of the abilities that you are adding are useful for actual poisons. Also, if you are going to have the DC go up based on that ratio, it is more powerful than my initial suggestion that you thought might be overpowered. Let's compare it to Drow Poison, one of the most useful poisons in the game in my opinion and one that you can afford to make and are able to make at low levels and in decent quantities if you get the Master Alchemist feat at 5th level.
Your ability assuming you start with a 20 in Int which considering it is your primary casting stat and now your damage stat as well is not unreasonable.
Toxin DC would be 15 at lvl 1 and go up to a DC of 25 at level 20 not counting any boosts to Int you would surely get considering how important the stat is to your character.
Drow Poison DC for my initial build would be 13 at lvl 1 and go up to a max of 19. At level 2 when my build gets it's first bump to DC Drow Poison would be a DC 15 yours, DC 16, at level 5 my build catches up to your build in DC but yours got there the level before, at level 8 both of our builds get to 19, but this is where mine maxes out and yours continues to go up in DC every two lvls after that. This is again not touching your builds initial Int of 20 which would mean your build would be even better than this comparison suggests as soon as you get stat bumps.
In addition to the DC differences my build still needs to make the poisons, which means I need to spend gold on them, yours does not. Also, in order to make them in useful quantities to have a daily supply, I need to take a feat, you don't. Also, for my build, you need to keep craft alchemy maxed in order to be able to make the poisons faster, yours now treats it as an unimportant skill.
On top of all this, your ability does not function like a poison. Poisons have an effect that happens once per round, minute, hour, or day for at least two of those increments and while affected by it additional applications do not reapply the effect, they raise the save DC and increase the number of increments that it will last for if not cured or saved against. On top of this, only the poisons that deal Con damage and Hemlock actually kill and they will take multiple increments to even have a chance to do so and on top of this these poisons either have one to 2 of these other downsides, a low save DC, an onset time of a minute or more (which means the poison doesn't even start to do anything even if they failed their save for at least 10 rounds of combat), or a price between 1800 gp per dose to 6500 gp per dose. All other poisons have nonlethal effects since reducing an attribute to 0 or negative renders an individual unconscious unless it is to Con.
Ian Meadows wrote: This is a homebrew archetype for alchemist. Please let me know what you think about it.
Sneak Attack: replaces bomb class feature same damage progression
Powerful Poisons: replaces poison resist +2 with an increase to poison save DCs of poisons crafted by the alchemist by +2, replaces resist +4 with DC+4, resist +6 with DC +6, and replaces poison immunity with bypass immunity which lowers a creatures resistance to poisons created by the alchemist by one step, from immune to +6, +6 to +4, +4 to +2, or +2 to none, if a creature has no resistance to poisons this has no added benefit.
Fast Stealth: can select the fast stealth rogue talent in place of a discovery.
Perfect vulnerability: can select the perfect vulnerability vigilante talent in place of a discovery once level 8 or higher.
Oh, I'm realizing I didn't explain the bypass immunity ability very well. If a creature has immunity to poisons they would instead be given a +6 bonus to save against poisons created by the alchemist. If the immunity was given by a class feature or item that progresses in power based on level and previous abilities gave an increased resistance to poison you get either +6 or the previous ability, whichever is greater, this applies to all instances of immunity. If a creature is not immune to poisons, their total added bonus to resist poisons is lowered by 2 to a minimum of 0.
Here is an example. A level 10 alchemist normally has immunity to poisons, so instead they get a +6 bonus on their fortitude saves versus poisons from their class since their previous class feature providing poison resistance does not give a greater bonus. This bonus stacks as normal with other resistances to poison. Now, let's say this same alchemist also bought a Periapt of Proof against Poison. This item also provides immunity to poison, so against poisons created by an Alchemical Assasin of level 10 or higher it would instead provide a +6 bonus to saves against poisons since it does not have a previous ability providing resistance to poisons. Together a normal level 10 alchemist with this item would have a +12 bonus to saves against poisons created by an Alchemical Assasin of level 10 or higher, plus any racial bonuses or trait bonuses. Repeat this for all instances of immunity, however multiple instances of immunity from the same type of source do not stack. Sources include item, race, classes, or traits. Now a level 8 Dwarf Alchemist would normally have a +8 bonus to resist poisons, +2 from the race and +6 from the class. Since it is not immune to poisons you simply reduce the total bonus by 2 to a +6 bonus to resist poisons created by an an Alchemical Assasin of level 10 or higher. Finally, let's take a base Human Fighter with no gear affecting resistance to poisons. Since they have no added bonus or immunity to poisons the bypass ability doesn't affect them since it doesn't reduce a creatures bonuses below 0.
That was more critical than I was expecting. You don't have to like it, but I don't think you understand it. On a separate note, starting with a 20 Int - particularly with a MAD class - is fairly shortsighted.
I think you shouldn't dismiss Ciaran Barnes' approach so quickly.
Poisons have really messy rules in Pathfinder. If players feel the need to create a flowchart, it's a safe bet that a rule is too complex. In addition, debuffs can be a real nuisance to handle for GMs who already have to keep track of many other things ('Ability damage--seriously? You are going to make me recalculate my monster's stat block for the remaining 3 rounds that it's going to live?').
Having poison deal direct damage is much easier to track. Maybe it would be more appropiate if the ability dealt damage over time and could be combined with rider effects to apply penalties, but I would actually prefer such a system over one that causes damage/penalties indirectly (via ability damage). I don't have experience with the poison rules from Pathfinder Unchained; maybe they could be used as a basis for a poisoning ability?
Amanuensis wrote: I think you shouldn't dismiss Ciaran Barnes' approach so quickly.
Poisons have really messy rules in Pathfinder. If players feel the need to create a flowchart, it's a safe bet that a rule is too complex. In addition, debuffs can be a real nuisance to handle for GMs who already have to keep track of many other things ('Ability damage--seriously? You are going to make me recalculate my monster's stat block for the remaining 3 rounds that it's going to live?').
Having poison deal direct damage is much easier to track. Maybe it would be more appropiate if the ability dealt damage over time and could be combined with rider effects to apply penalties, but I would actually prefer such a system over one that causes damage/penalties indirectly (via ability damage). I don't have experience with the poison rules from Pathfinder Unchained; maybe they could be used as a basis for a poisoning ability?
I am not arguing with you on the messy rules for poisons, and that is why I like Drow Poison it simply knocks people unconscious, no debuffs. For the most part I see most other poisons as things you use outside of combat. Also, I would have less issue with his idea if he were simply revamping the poison system to do damage instead of saying that just this archetype gets it. Finally, while as a poison it is overpowered, as a class ability that is replacing either sneak attack or bomb, since both are valid options for the bomb feature slot already through core paizo books, I think it is actually not worth the trade since poison immunity is fairly common starting around level 10 and there is even an amulet that can provide it.
Amanuensis wrote: I think you shouldn't dismiss Ciaran Barnes' approach so quickly.
Poisons have really messy rules in Pathfinder.
Actually he took his time dismissing me. ;)
You're right about them being messy though. Considering the high price to buy, the price and time to make, the required action and risk to use, the set DCs, and the need to recalculate stats of a monster than will likely be dead in a few rounds, traditional poisons are a hassle to use. They are best left in the monsters' hands/teeth/stingers/tentacles because they are essentially free and the PCs might be left to deal with the effects for multiple game days.
Ian, I understand my version isn't actually poison in the traditional sense. Its just damage thats been dressed up in a poison costume (Though I also made a bunch of discoveries to go along with it). But to the right player, my version or something like it would fill the poison use niche just fine. Although if anything, a poisoner-type character would most often be best as an NPC. I was only trying to help.
To make effective use of traditional poisons, you walk a fine line. As a default they are not very accessible in the game, and thats probably because the original designers didn't want them stockpiled and abused. If thats the case, then time has shown that they were overly cautious, and best solution would be a poison re-vamp to the core rules.
Maybe instead of using Pathfinder poisons, you can make a class that uses some other kind of chemical debuffer, like a bane, blight, toxin, or drug? Or whatever anti-paladins cause?
It could cause hit point damage (scaling like sneak attack damage and/or bomb damage), and then add a variety of rider effects, like fatigue, shaken, or sickened? With more powerful debuffers at higher levels, like exhausted, frightened, or nauseated?
Or would an easier system be to just apply penalties to different kinds of rolls? Like a toxin that causes -2 to Attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, etc.? Similar to hexes.
I think a simpler solution for Ciaran's build is to just call it someting other than poison if he's not messing with the core mechanics of poisons. Maybe call the ability "Alchemical Weapons". You can leave the rest pretty much the same. Since it wouldn't be a poison anymore you wouldn't have the immunity problem anymore and the high DC makes sense for a class ability that should work most of the time like sneak attack does. The one thing that I might change about it after that is probably remove the uses per day, but keep it so it only functions for the character.
Oh, and either as an additional thing or a discovery, you could have the damage be typed like fire, acid, cold, etc., with the type of damage being determined on application. This would help tie it into the traditional alchemical weapons like acid flasks, alchemical fire and so on, and give a nifty way to stop certain things from regenerating.
What did you decide to do with yours? I think there are additional issue to address. Traditional poisons have the following problems, to me at least:
-Not a good resource. It take too long to create a single dose, and its too expensive. An alchemist has options to mitigate that up, but even then poison doesn't become something readily available for use as a signature ability.
-Their effect on combat is not propertionate with the cost and time required to create. If you hit it for 4 Con and it looses 2 hit points per hit die, thats not significant compared to your investment so far. You could instead knock down another ability score to affect attack rolls, but there are simpler ways to do that.
-If the enemy make its save, the poison has absolutely no effect so all of the the investment is wasted. There is no save for 1/2 or whatever. Your save DC boost helps that but its only addressing one issue.
I use Drow poison mainly w/ my characters for combat situations. It doesn't cost too much, as far as poisons go, so once you get to level 5 and take the Master Alchemist feat you can start getting a daily supply. I think the DC increases would help to make it stay moderately useful for a longer time.
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