Not sure what the interaction is here and wanting to get some other peoples opinions.
First, the spells.
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.
If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. If any 5-foot length of wall takes 20 points or more of cold damage in 1 round, that length goes away. (Do not divide cold damage by 2, as normal for objects.)
Wall of fire can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent wall of fire that is extinguished by cold damage becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then reforms at normal strength.
The situation. 20th level caster casts time stop and gets X rounds to play with. They spend these rounds casting wall of fire in the space their enemy is located in.
The question is what damage does the enemy take? We have 2 thoughts on this currently.
1) The walls of fire have duration longer than the time stop, and have their normal effect when time stop ends. The normal effect when in the area of a wall of fire that is cast where a creature is located is to take 2d6+CL fire damage.
2) The enemy is immune to the spells during the time stop, so they do not take the 2d6+CL damage. Instead they only take the damage on their turn if they pass through the fire, or end their turn in the hot zone.
Thoughts?
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Not sure what the interaction is here and wanting to get some other peoples opinions.
First, the spells.
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
The situation. 20th level caster casts time stop and gets X rounds to play with. They spend these rounds casting wall of fire in the space their enemy is located in.
The question is what damage does the enemy take? We have 2 thoughts on this currently.
1) The walls of fire have duration longer than the time stop, and have their normal effect when time stop ends. The normal effect when in the area of a wall of fire that is cast where a creature is located is to take 2d6+CL fire damage.
2) The enemy is immune to the spells during the time stop, so they do not take the 2d6+CL damage. Instead they only take the damage on their turn if they pass through the fire, or end their turn in the hot zone.
Thoughts?
Ok, I dropped Firewall to make the post shorter, because frankly it's rules aren't important Aside from "The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round.In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it." I've bolded what really matters in time stop.
1: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells"
This means no matter what damage you do during time stop, NONE of it applies.
2: "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends"
This means that when time stop ends the spell will continue and act as it normally does for that point of the spells effect.
So to walk through it.
Round 1 cast Time Stop: for 2+1 (3) rounds of gained time.
Round 2 Cast Firewall: Creation of spell does no damage due to time stop, burns for... we'll call these lvl 10 spell caster for 10 rounds each.
Round 3 Cast Firewall: Creation of spell does no damage due to time stop (first firewall has 9 rounds left, still no damage done.)
Round 4 Cast Firewall: Creation of spell does no damage due to time stop (first firewall has 8 rounds left, second has 9 left, still no damage done.)
Time Stop ENDS
Round 5 EVERYONE else gets their full turn to act. On your initiative the Firewalls deal 1 round of damage each to anyone still standing in them.
I'm not sure either options are entirely accurate. First no one takes any damage from the creation of the fire walls, but anyone inside it would take 6d6+30 damage (2d6+10 for our example lvl 10 caster times 3 firewalls) moving through the firewall if they move. If they stay in place they take the fire damage on your turn, or finally (at least I would apply it this way) if a creature used magic or a SU/SP ability to teleport out of the fire they did not move through it, nor will they be in it on your turn. Allowing them to react in a way to completely eliminate them taking any damage from your fire walls.
I'm not sure either options are entirely accurate. First no one takes any damage from the creation of the fire walls, but anyone inside it would take 6d6+30 damage (2d6+10 for our example lvl 10 caster times 3 firewalls) moving through the firewall if they move. If they stay in place they take the fire damage on your turn, or finally (at least I would apply it this way) if a creature used magic or a SU/SP ability to teleport out of the fire they did not move through it, nor will they be in it on your turn. Allowing them to react in a way to completely eliminate them taking any damage from your fire walls.
If they move they take damage for moving through the fire?
I thought that normally, cast wall of fire in creature space, they take 2d6+CL damage. On their turn, they can move away from the wall and not take damage, because they don't have to move through it. If it was cast bordering their space, they have 1 direction they can move without crossing the wall. If it was cast intersecting their space, they could move either direction without crossing it, as they are already half in it (evidenced by taking the damage when it was cast).
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I'm not sure either options are entirely accurate. First no one takes any damage from the creation of the fire walls, but anyone inside it would take 6d6+30 damage (2d6+10 for our example lvl 10 caster times 3 firewalls) moving through the firewall if they move. If they stay in place they take the fire damage on your turn, or finally (at least I would apply it this way) if a creature used magic or a SU/SP ability to teleport out of the fire they did not move through it, nor will they be in it on your turn. Allowing them to react in a way to completely eliminate them taking any damage from your fire walls.If they move they take damage for moving through the fire?
I thought that normally, cast wall of fire in creature space, they take 2d6+CL damage. On their turn, they can move away from the wall and not take damage, because they don't have to move through it. If it was cast bordering their space, they have 1 direction they can move without crossing the wall. If it was cast intersecting their space, they could move either direction without crossing it, as they are already half in it (evidenced by taking the damage when it was cast).
Hmm good point, I've spent too much time with games where Firewall acts differently. In Pathfinder the wall itself is only a line along the border of a square that sprays fire/heat in a single direction. So you are correct, if they moved away from the wall they would not take any damage for moving through it.
I would say a smart caster would point the firewalls so that for the target to get to their objective (the caster, an item, an ally...) The target would have to move through the walls. Someone that succesfully spellcrafted the timestop may know there very likely standing next to 2-5 Firewalls and opt to go the long way around. Someone without spellcrafting (or that failed their check), would probably just assume only a single firewall was cast and may try to step through it and eat the damage.
In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen
Time stop doesn't really stop time. It speeds you up.
Treat spells and effects as 'on hold' while time stop is in effect. For durations and effects treat time stop rounds as if they hadn't happened.
In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozenTime stop doesn't really stop time. It speeds you up.
Treat spells and effects as 'on hold' while time stop is in effect. For durations and effects treat time stop rounds as if they hadn't happened.
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells;
Its not on hold though. Wall of fire has an effect when cast. And when it is cast, the enemy is invulnerable to your spells.
The question is, does the damage from being in the space when the wall of fire appears happen during the time stop (and thus creature is invulnerable) or is it part of the "normal effects" that happen when time stop expires.
There really shouldn't be any difference between what happens in normal time when you cast a wall of fire on an enemy and when you do it in a time stop. In real time it pops on them and then time goes on and they get to take damage or respond. In time stop nothing happens to the target until the time stop ends, then from the perspective of the target a wall suddenly appeared on top of them, so they either take damage or respond. The only difference is the time stop lets you stack the effects (whatever they are) multiple times.
I think there's no way to force a target to count as "passing through it" just by putting it on top of him. At best you get the within 10' damage. Time stop with sufficient rounds would let you box someone in, though, and force him to sit still or walk through one (and only one) of the walls to escape. Since the goal is presumably to make him take full damage in order to beat weak fire resistance and impose a Dazing Spell effect this might accomplish that if standing put is a particularly bad move for some reason.
I think there's no way to force a target to count as "passing through it" just by putting it on top of him.
In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.
If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
Ok, then they take damage immediately after the time stop ends on your initiative. They would take damage on your initiative count when you cast it in normal time, so it makes no sense for it to delay after time stop runs out.
Effectively count any spells cast under timestop as taking effect right at the start of the first normal round when timestop ends.
Effectively count any spells cast under timestop as taking effect right at the start of the first normal round when timestop ends.
That doesn't match what time stop says.
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.
Since the spell has one effect when cast, and a different effect for the duration, it looks like the creature would be invulnerable to the "when cast" effect, because time stop is still in effect.
So, is the "normal effect" to deal passing damage? Or is it the 2d4 damage within 10' and 1d4 10-20'.
I don't know of other area spells that have one effect on cast, and another effect for the remainder of their duration, or I'd look to those for guidance.
They're treated as passing through the wall when time stop ends. Saving throws applicable if any.
They're treated as passing through the wall when time stop ends. Saving throws applicable if any.
Why?
"If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall."
At the time when the Wall of Fire is cast the creature is invulnerable to spells from the caster of Time Stop.
So during the Time Stop a caster casts a Wall of Fire onto the target. It's evoked so that it appears in the targets area and it takes damage as if passing through the wall; which would be 0 damage since, "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."
Now Time Stop mentions: "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends."
So the Wall of Fire would still be going. So wouldn't that only leave the; "One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round." to continue?
No, from the perspective of the target there's no difference between it being cast directly on him in normal time and it being cast directly on him during Time Stop. The Time Stop invulnerability is to prevent directly interacting with targets via instantaneous (i.e. Power Word Kill) or immediate save and ongoing duration (Hold Person) effects. It doesn't stop area of effect stuff resolving as normal when the Time Stop ends.
Compare Acid Fog and Cloudkill. They should work the same way, immediate damage/saving throw after the Time Stop ends.
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Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.
So, each round during the time stop, the creatures in the are are immune. When time stop ends, each of the casters turn deals the damage.
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
Again, each round on the casters turn, it has an effect. That effect is still present when time stop expires.
What is similar to those in wall of fire?
One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears, and to all creatures in the area on your turn each round. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it.
Every casters turn, deal 2d4 or 1d4 damage depending on distance from the wall. Additionally, deal damage to creatures passing through it. Those effects will start when time stop expires.
The difference is wall of fire also has this section.
If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
This happens during the time stop, so the creature is immune to the passing through damage.
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Personally, I think you are missing a subtlety in the rules that makes Wall of Fire work differently to comparable spells like Cloudkill. In saying that, I still think your interpretation is a reasonable one.
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
I think I understand your position. I don't understand why it isn't covered under the invulnerable to spells during the time stop duration.