
bitter lily |

I'm putting together a homebrew fairy-tale kind of world (this week!) for a game with my sister, who's coming in from out of town for the holiday. I want a world with "furry" PC races. Races like catfolk. (Except I'm calling them animal-kin races to distinguish my variants from Paizo's and others'.) This will be for a single adventure for 5th-level characters, although if it takes off, it could grow in scope. The PCs live in a land called Winter, with subarctic temperatures. And my adventure takes place near... the winter solstice, oddly enough. :)
To start with, all of my races have some SQ, and I'm not sure how to price these in RP. I also have some specific questions about them...
>> Change Shape (su; <source animal>, Beast Shape I or II). As per the Universal Monster Rules, except that changing to a shape two sizes smaller is permitted.
>> Beastspeech (su). Prerequisite: Animal-kin subtype; Benefit: Members of this race have the ability to converse with animals as if subject to a continual Speak with Animals spell. This ability includes conversing with other animal-kin in beast shape.
>> Winter-Bred (ex). Members of this race never make Constitution checks when dealing with cold ambient temperatures, but suffer -4 on such a check when dealing with hot ones. (In other words, I don't want my PCs to freeze to death. Those Con rolls in Core are nasty! I'm thinking this might even come in at 0 RP, since there's a stiff penalty should someone take this race out of their homeland.)
My final question on this topic concerns my last PC race, the Changeling. They're the offspring of a hag and an animal-kin (and now deceased) male. They'll get Winter-Bred, but not Beastspeech. And they don't actually have a "source" animal for Change Shape, for all that they look almost like their father's race. (Mismatched eyes & some sort of coloring give their parentage away.) I'm thinking of giving them:
>> Change Shape (su; <hag type>, Alter Self). (Lesser, 3 RP)
But then what do they get in exchange for Beastspeech?

bitter lily |

Now for the races themselves. I'd love some feedback on whether these seem balanced against each other. Does anyone see problems looming with any of these designs? In all cases, I need more flavor text, I know. One race for tonight...
Bear-kin
Inspired in large part by Jon Brazer Enterprises' Ursines
Bear-kin typically serve not only their own people, but all of the tribes of animal-kin, as stout defenders. They hunt mastodons for food, and war against the many monsters of their land. They typically base themselves out of caves or halls near rat-kin warrens, but often travel from one such den to another when the game -- and enemies -- in one area grow scarce.
Physical Description Bear-kin are bear-like, bipedal humanoids with a thick coat of brown fur, angular ears near the top of the head, and a wide bear’s mouth. They have massive paws for hands and feet, but with stubby fingers and toes in place of claws. They are of medium size, with the same height & weight as half-orcs. When they take on animal form, they grow to large size and resemble grizzly bears.
Alignment Bear-kin tend toward a Neutral alignment.
Bear-kin Racial Traits
(1 RP) +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha Bear-kin are strong and hardy, but a bit surly or withdrawn.
(0 RP) Type Bear-kin are humanoids with the animal-kin & shapechanger subtypes.
(0 RP) Size Bear-kin are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
(0+1 RP) Speed Bear-kin have a base speed of 30 feet, and are never hampered by difficult terrain in hilly or mountainous regions, or by natural formations made of stone or earth (although magically altered terrain still affects them).
(1 RP) Low-Light Vision In dim light, bear-kin can see twice as far as humans.
(2 RP) Natural Armor Bear-kin gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.
(1 RP) Stability Bear-kin gain a +4 racial bonus to CMD when bull rush and trip attempts are made against them, as long as they are standing on the ground.
(1 RP) Relentless Bear-kin gain a +2 racial bonus to CMB on bull rush and overrun attempts they make, as long as both they and their opponent are on the ground.
(2? RP) Leverage Bear-kin suffer no penalties if using their primary hand to wield or throw a weapon made for a Large-sized creature to use one-handed. They take normal penalties, however, if wielding weapons made for Large-sized creatures to use two-handed. Bear-kin wielding weapons appropriate for Medium-sized creatures do not take any penalty while using them, and they do not wield them with less hands than normal.
(1? RP) Tactical Insight Bear-kin study tactics to apply against their foes. Once per day, a bear-kin may spend a move action and choose one opponent within 30 feet to study for appropriate tactics. They then receive a +1 insight bonus to the attack and damage rolls they make against that specific opponent for the rest of that day.
(2+1 RP) Youthful Training At first level, bear-kin must choose any one Craft or Profession skill with a specialty useful to a small armed force, and invest one rank in that skill; they then gain a +2 racial bonus in that Craft or Profession. (Crafts such as leather-working or weaponsmith, and Professions such as cook, medic, or messenger work well.) They also must choose one Knowledge skill at first level which they may use untrained. Both of the skills they picked are class skills for them.
(0 RP) Languages Bear-kin begin play speaking Common and Bearkinese. Bear-kin with high Intelligence scores may choose from the following languages: Catkinese, dogkinese, Foxkinese, Giant, Kobold, Ratkinese, or Ravenkinese.
SQ Change Shape (su; grizzly bear, Beast Shape II).
Beastspeech (su).
Winter-Bred (ex).

Debnor |

Of what power level are you hoping to achieve with these races? Shapechange for the bear is essentially an at-will 4th level spell that a 1st level character can use.
She's planning on making the races of 'Advanced' level, but not 'Monstrous'. I'm not certain that the shapechange is quite as powerful as a 4th level spell, because it's limited to only one shape. You can't cherry-pick for the qualities (or even size) that you want.

bitter lily |

Cyrad, I seem to have unwittingly crossed a threshold with the "at-will 3rd level spell" vs. "at-will 4th level spell," so thanks for pointing it out. I was actually looking at the following when I picked Beast Shape II:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely.
I had assumed that therefore it wasn't special that a medium-sized creature could don the shape of a large one. I had picked grizzly bears over black bears because the personality of the humanoid race is based on that creature. Bear-kin are martial, willing to attack threats on sight, like grizzlies. Meanwhile, Rat-kin have the craven personality of Tiny-sized rats, not fierce dire rats -- as humanoids, they'd prefer to scuttle into their warrens and watch others fight. As they are Small-sized, I hadn't thought that it would be special that they could become Tiny animals. (As an additional note, if the best I can do is to give Rat-kin the shape of dire rats, I'd also have to make dire rats plentiful in these forests, changing their stated ecology quite drastically.)
Fox-kin & Raven-kin are a much bigger problem. Or rather, tinier. :) Their jig would be up if you happened to run across a Small-sized version of one of these normally Tiny-sized animals out in the forest, and I don't know of a small-sized shape that I could hold my nose & give them! Maybe I can simply give up on having Fox-kin. I think the world would be the poorer for it, but... the other races can cover if we lose a race of spellcasters & rogues.
Raven-kin, however, are an utter necessity for my society. Raven-kin may demand the best bits of carrion & treasure alike, but they help the other races by flying "incognito" in bird shape -- as couriers & spies. And yet the only Small-sized birds listed in the Bestiary index are Trumpeter Swans! This shape simply will not work; trumpeters don't just have a radically different personality, they have a different folklore. In short, while I can make my Raven-kin Small like Rat-folk, so that they don't down-size more than one step, they must get a raven shape from Beast Shape II.
There's another point. The way I have their animal shapes, bears are Large (grizzly bear), cats are Medium (cheetah, adapted as snow leopard), dogs are Small (dog), and then foxes, rats & ravens (fox, rat, & raven) are Tiny. You can see their typical willingness to enter melee in front of your eyes. A world where all of these animals are Medium or Small is definitely poorer.
So how do I give most of them Beast Shape II?

Kitty Catoblepas |

To answer a question with a question:
What would your Ravens and Foxes gain if they shapeshifted to animal form as a Medium-sized humanoid that they wouldn't gain shapeshifting as a Small-sized humanoid? That is to say, if you just ignored the size restriction, what would be the consequence?
Here's an alternative.

Mark Carlson 255 |
From experience with other games, every race does not have to have the exact same "point" totals but should be with in a range you set or simply be balanced with one another.
Negative Values on Race:
I know it is not such a big thing in PF but often such races that have advantages also have disadvantages. So for example a large race would have to eat more, pay more for food, cloths, suffer social penalties for size vs other races, etc. The inclusion of a drawback can also add flavor to the race and add some RP possibilities.
General Balance Note:
Trying something new often is fun to me and the trick is to try and keep the balance right for the time your expect to play with the altered rules. But if all the PC's and NPC's have about the same benefits then they only thing you have to be aware of is how you adjust the CR's at low levels vs phasing out that adjustment at higher levels. Note the last statement is something that quite a few others have relayed to me about unusual benefits/qualities adjusting the challenge of low level encounters but having very little effect on higher level encounters. The trick is to pin down just where this change occurs and to put a valid number on the CR change in the first place, this is often done by trial and error.
Specific Things for Bear race:
Leverage:
1) I asked a question close to this about the 1/2 giants ability to use large weapons without penalty and got various results of RP values of it should be the same as being a large size creature to costing more then the large racial trait as you do not have the drawbacks of the trait.
2) Why the penalty on 2H use and not 1H use?
Tactical Insight:
Why would a bear race have this vs say and owl race as in general bears on earth are not known for studying their foes before attacking?
Have fun,
MDC

bitter lily |

To answer a question with a question:
What would your Ravens and Foxes gain if they shapeshifted to animal form as a Medium-sized humanoid that they wouldn't gain shapeshifting as a Small-sized humanoid? That is to say, if you just ignored the size restriction, what would be the consequence?
Here's an alternative.
I'm not quite sure how to answer you. The base race is the raven-kin & fox-kin -- that is, the humanoid. They shift to animal form on occasion, but would normally be in humanoid form "at home." (Whatever that means to a largely nomadic culture.) I think you're asking me, why not make them Small-size humanoids like Rat-kin already are? The point being, in order to not shift more than one step smaller. And the answer is, probably, that's the thing to do.
Now that I go to check it out, actual brown rats are under 1 lb, not that much smaller than common ravens at 2-3 lbs, while arctic foxes are still only about 8 lbs. In comparison, the next biggest animal is the dog, which I'm basing on the icelandic shepherd, at 25-35 lbs. Then the snow leopard comes in at 60-120 lbs (quite a range!), and the grizzly bear at 500+ lbs. Given that I don't have a lot of categories to work with, it makes sense to class the first three humanoids as Small & the second three as Medium.
Next question: How the blankety-blank do all these Small-sized races cope with deep snow?
(That's the real reason I wanted to keep the Fox-kin & Raven-kin of the same size as Paizo's Kitsune & Tengu, you see.) Rat-kin alone are not especially nomadic. They venture far from their warrens only on trading journeys, which of course they limit to the short summer months. Fox-kin and Raven-kin have to move about all year long. And roads? What are those? The general terrain (here) is hilly rather than mountainous, but Winter has a tight grip on the land, and it snows A LOT.
And I'm afraid that coyotes are far, far too interested in warm climates, and even the Golden Jackal (which I hadn't known existed until minutes ago) doesn't range into cold enough areas. While some variants of red foxes do, but... golden jackals are bigger. Indubitably bigger. 13-31 lbs, in fact, which puts them over the edge into Small as animals -- and thus Medium as humanoids. But... no.
So, how would Small-sized fox-kin move through deep snow in pursuit of fresh hunting? Do you have ideas? (Mind you, I appreciate the interest you've shown and the idea you gave me; it was definitely worth an hour of wiki'ing to see if I could make it work!)

Kitty Catoblepas |

I think you're asking me, why not make them Small-size humanoids like Rat-kin already are?
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I meant to say, Why don't you keep them medium and just ignore the size restriction?
The picture of the Maned Wolf I linked from the Boise Zoo site was just a me making a "tall fox" joke.
So, how would Small-sized fox-kin move through deep snow in pursuit of fresh hunting? Do you have ideas?
You've never seen the cutest of videos -- A red fox hunting in the snow?
It basically walks on top of the snow and dives head-first when if finds its prey. Wonderful video.
Another interesting animal in the snow is the American Bison. It moves it's giant head and powerful neck like a snowplow to uncover the grass underneath.

bitter lily |

From experience with other games, every race does not have to have the exact same "point" totals but should be with in a range you set or simply be balanced with one another.
Negative Values on Race:
I know it is not such a big thing in PF but often such races that have advantages also have disadvantages. So for example a large race would have to eat more, pay more for food, cloths, suffer social penalties for size vs other races, etc. The inclusion of a drawback can also add flavor to the race and add some RP possibilities.
Fascinating idea -- even if the humanoid Bear-kin race is actually Medium, they're definitely on the upper edge of it, and then move past into Large in animal shape. Unfortunately, the Race Generator doesn't have anything appropriate. I do like the idea that they have to eat more than the other races. Homebrewing away...
Next question: I have races coming up that can shift into Tiny Animal form, also w/ Beast Shape II. What sort of drawbacks might I inflict on them?
General Balance Note:
Trying something new often is fun to me and the trick is to try and keep the balance right for the time your expect to play with the altered rules. But if all the PC's and NPC's have about the same benefits then they only thing you have to be aware of is how you adjust the CR's at low levels vs phasing out that adjustment at higher levels. Note the last statement is something that quite a few others have relayed to me about unusual benefits/qualities adjusting the challenge of low level encounters but having very little effect on higher level encounters. The trick is to pin down just where this change occurs and to put a valid number on the CR change in the first place, this is often done by trial and error.
I'm heartened -- and alerted. Thank you!
Specific Things for Bear race:
Leverage:
1) I asked a question close to this about the 1/2 giants ability to use large weapons without penalty and got various results of RP values of it should be the same as being a large size creature to costing more then the large racial trait as you do not have the drawbacks of the trait.
2) Why the penalty on 2H use and not 1H use?Tactical Insight:
Why would a bear race have this vs say and owl race as in general bears on earth are not known for studying their foes before attacking?
Maybe I should just bite the bullet and make the base form (the humanoid form) Large. It would settle the 1H vs 2H weapon question -- and certainly, if I'm going to spend even close to 7 RP on the weapon ability, I'd rather spend it on the whole creature becoming large! And brown bears really are massive... As for only getting a 1Hander benefit, it's because it vaguely made sense to me, plus it was based on the Ursine material, plus I was trying to keep the cost down. Mind you, I combined what they had as a variant racial trait & as a feat & adapted from there, so I take full responsibility if my version is nonsensical to a person who is actually experienced in melee (through SCA or such, which I am definitely not). Are you questioning it because you do think it's nonsensical?
Cyrad, would you question Beast Shape II if the base form were Large? Do you question it for a Small Humanoid shifting to a single Tiny form?
On Tactical Insight: I rewrote an Ursine ability to make sense to me as a "we have military training" thing. (I wouldn't have come up with it otherwise.) Dropping this altogether would help pay for the Large size -- which does, I agree, seem much more bearlike.
I'll come back with a "clean" write-up after there's been more time for review (and I've finally posted my other races). But for now, assume that I base my final write-up on what I posted earlier but...
Bear-kin drop...
(0 RP) Size Bear-kin are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
(2? RP) Leverage Bear-kin suffer no penalties if using their primary hand to wield or throw a weapon made for a Large-sized creature to use one-handed. They take normal penalties, however, if wielding weapons made for Large-sized creatures to use two-handed. Bear-kin wielding weapons appropriate for Medium-sized creatures do not take any penalty while using them, and they do not wield them with less hands than normal.
(1? RP) Tactical Insight Bear-kin study tactics to apply against their foes. Once per day, a bear-kin may spend a move action and choose one opponent within 30 feet to study for appropriate tactics. They then receive a +1 insight bonus to the attack and damage rolls they make against that specific opponent for the rest of that day.
(2+1 RP) Youthful Training At first level, bear-kin must choose any one Craft or Profession skill with a specialty useful to a small armed force, and invest one rank in that skill; they then gain a +2 racial bonus in that Craft or Profession. (Crafts such as leather-working or weaponsmith, and Professions such as cook, medic, or messenger work well.) They also must choose one Knowledge skill at first level which they may use untrained. Both of the skills they picked are class skills for them.
...and replace them with...
(7+1 RP) Size Bear-kin are Large creatures, and as such have the following bonuses or penalties due to their size: They gain a +2 size bonus to Strength and a –2 size penalty to Dexterity. They also take a –1 size penalty to their AC, a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a –4 size penalty on Stealth checks. They take up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and have a reach of 10 feet.
(-1 RP) Large Appetite Bear-kin are massive and heavy-set, and that means they must eat more; they require twice as much food daily as Small or Medium races.
Ouch! I hate having to give up Youthful Training -- they really would insist that their youth pay their way, and get some schooling on Know Thy Enemy. But otherwise, they'd be up to 17 RP, without having the SQ priced. (Now it's 14 RP + SQ's.)
Do I really have to give Bear-kin (alone of all my animal-kin) the Giant subtype?

Kitty Catoblepas |

Almonihah & Kitty, thank you very much. Your ideas are being taken into account. Now I just have to get to Fox-kin...
And Kitty, I love jokes, but when they send me off on a hourlong wiki tangent... She said with both asperity and humor in her voice.
I'm sorry... I just found a picture of the Maned Wolf when I was searching for larger forms of foxes and I thought I should share. It looked very "tall-fox" adorable.
Anyway...
Not to send you in another direction suddenly, but there is also the possibility that you could make the creatures treat their "Animal Forms" as their normal forms and their "Humanoid Forms" as their shifted forms.
For a fox, the relevant abilities (and costs) are:
Tiny (4)
Quadruped (2)
Change Shape, Lesser (3)
For a raven, the relevant abilities (and costs) are:
Tiny (4)
flight (4)
Change Shape, Lesser (3)
Just an option if you're stuck on Shapechanging, sizing and pricing.
Also, the Fox Hunting in the Snow picture and suggestion was in earnest

bitter lily |

I'm sorry... I just found a picture of the Maned Wolf when I was searching for larger forms of foxes and I thought I should share. It looked very "tall-fox" adorable.Anyway...
Not to send you in another direction suddenly, but there is also the possibility that you could make the creatures treat their "Animal Forms" as their normal forms and their "Humanoid Forms" as their shifted forms. (...)
Also, the Fox Hunting in the Snow picture and suggestion was in earnest
The pics have been adorable indeed. I just wanted a clue that the first one was a joke! (Although chasing down golden jackal as a possibility to get crossed off wasn't all that bad, actually.) I did mean the humor in my voice part, honest.
No, the animal form as base isn't going to work, thematically. But thanks for pricing it.
And I did get that the Fox pics were serious -- and fun. Thanks!

Kitty Catoblepas |

The pics have been adorable indeed. I just wanted a clue that the first one was a joke! (Although chasing down golden jackal as a possibility to get crossed off wasn't all that bad, actually.) I did mean the humor in my voice part, honest.No, the animal form as base isn't going to work, thematically. But thanks for pricing it.
And I did get that the Fox pics were serious -- and fun. Thanks!
Isn't the Coyote basically the new-world equivalent of the Golden Jackal? I think its range includes taiga and tundra, too.
...I mean, if you're still trying to narrow down which animals you're using.

Mark Carlson 255 |
bitter lily,
1) By making the bear race large, IMHO you effectively have required them to eat more food just like they pay more for equipment do to their size. Just make sure to enforce the fact they require more food and water then others.
1a) If you keep the race medium or just decide the shape change is larger size then you can leave the Large Appetite as a bit of a balancing factor.
2) Nonsensical Leverage?
To me it just seamed strange that they could use 1H large weapons without penalty and not 2H large weapons without penalty.
But having said that I could possible see some strange quirk of anatomy that would allow for this penalty. If you keep such a strange quirk of anatomy (depending on the level of detail of your game) I would also have armor specially made for the race, so they could not just pick up any old large armor (like from a hill giant) and wear it.
3) Over all race balance:
What I try and do is make all the races I need, then see if they are balanced vs one another. Look to see if I have created any super race when I did not mean to, look and see if I provided bonuses that were too good for specific class's or class combinations.
If my racial designs are just for a short campaign then I do not care as much and just go with a more gut feeling and what I think would be the most fun.
4) Just for your info, I am helping out a new PF GM who is running the Giant Slayer AP and created some 1/2 giant ( 1/2 other race besides human) as well as some artifacts for the game and from what I have been hearing they have been having a lot of fun with the races and the ability to use large weapons without penalty in the AP.
MDC

bitter lily |

bitter lily,
1) By making the bear race large, IMHO you effectively have required them to eat more food just like they pay more for equipment do to their size. Just make sure to enforce the fact they require more food and water then others.
1a) If you keep the race medium or just decide the shape change is larger size then you can leave the Large Appetite as a bit of a balancing factor.2) Nonsensical Leverage?
To me it just seamed strange that they could use 1H large weapons without penalty and not 2H large weapons without penalty.
But having said that I could possible see some strange quirk of anatomy that would allow for this penalty. If you keep such a strange quirk of anatomy (depending on the level of detail of your game) I would also have armor specially made for the race, so they could not just pick up any old large armor (like from a hill giant) and wear it.3) Over all race balance:
What I try and do is make all the races I need, then see if they are balanced vs one another. Look to see if I have created any super race when I did not mean to, look and see if I provided bonuses that were too good for specific class's or class combinations.
If my racial designs are just for a short campaign then I do not care as much and just go with a more gut feeling and what I think would be the most fun.4) Just for your info, I am helping out a new PF GM who is running the Giant Slayer AP and created some 1/2 giant ( 1/2 other race besides human) as well as some artifacts for the game and from what I have been hearing they have been having a lot of fun with the races and the ability to use large weapons without penalty in the AP.
Feh! If I go with Large Size and not Large Appetite, I'm up to 15 RP. I don't see not going Large, though, if the hefty weapon ability is close to 7 RP. What did you end up pricing it at for the half-giants?
And that was 15 RP without SQ's getting priced yet. I'd really, really love some help on that! Please?
As for finishing them all -- yes, I'm moving soooo slowly, it hurts. I though I'd had all the basics done. :( And then twice now, I've almost finished a race, and accidentally deleted the text before posting. AARRRGGHHH!

bitter lily |

Maybe the beast speech ability should only be with similar animals. Or, limit the amount of time it can be used each day. Speak will animals is only a 1st level spell, but I don't think it should be unlimited use.
I was originally going to make it similar animals... But the more I think about it, the more I like the fairy-tale atmosphere that a cat or frog can talk to you. Maybe talking should just be an SQ that all the animals of the land get.

bitter lily |

Isn't the Coyote basically the new-world equivalent of the Golden Jackal? I think its range includes taiga and tundra, too.
...I mean, if you're still trying to narrow down which animals you're using.
I'm willing to look at alternatives to fox still, yes. If you can find me a link that shows coyotes or golden jackals in truly cold territory, I can work with that. (British Columbia doesn't count!) It's just that I couldn't.
Plus, I've been especially paying attention to what's in Scandinavia, and the hunt led me to find Lists of Mammals in <country> wiki sites. That was a plus! But it confirmed -- of canids, we're talking wolves (ie dogs) and foxes.

Mark Carlson 255 |
bitter lily,
I contacted the company who write the 1/2 giant and the answer I received was something like this, "we/I developed the 1/2 giant before the race creation rules were published so we/I do not have any point value for the ability." And then they go on to say how much they dislike the race creation rules in general and how you as a designer should just play it by ear and judge balance on a case by case basis.
I had an idea that if you kept something like you original idea that the bear was incapable of using its full strength with 2H weapons it would be a good flaw to of set the ability to use large weapons.
So I would propose the following: Do to Race X's unusual bone structure they are unable to fully achieve the benefit that other races do from using 2H with any weapon. So even if they use 2H on a weapon or use a 2H weapon they only get their strait ST mod and not ST mod x1 1/2.
To me that would fully balance out the ability to use large weapons 1H, 2H and thrown as the PC would lose the 1 and 1/2 times ST bonus to everything in exchange for a larger random base damage vs a larger fixed damage.
Does that make sense to you?
Large in creature creation rules:
I have spent a little time with the CCR (Creature Creation Rules and not Credence Clearwater Revival) and like many wish they were a bit tighter all around.
For example I do not know if they priced or thought of the requirement of large sized creatures to pay more $ for goods, if race is not everywhere almost every piece of equipment has to be custom made and would probably not in stock and other such things.
An example from literature would be in Lord of the Rings when the hobbits go to Bree and stay in hobbit sized rooms and the farther away from the hobbits homeland the less chance you would expect to find rooms sized for hobbits.
The other example is with hobbits is that in most text they describe them as eating as much food as a human or more but in most games do not enforce this negative aspect on the PC's in the game.
If I was pricing large, I would not have it at 7 points but fully enforce the drawbacks I listed above, so depending on the area most magic items would be sized for med sized creatures and they would have to essentially order their own and wait for them to be made, paying x2 to x4 (I cannot remember the price increase this early for large vs med size) for all equipment is a huge penalty IMHO in general but I do not think the CCR think so (I would let the player buy their first equipment at normal prices and then everything after that would have to have the multiple attached to it).
Recommendation Short Answer:
Large size, but do to anatomy do not get 1 1/2 times ST bonus to 2H weapon usage, enforce $ penalty for size on items and food and if in a non-bear area rarity of large sized items.
Once this race is done, compare it to the other races for balance in rules and RP potential and do not really worry about the total race point cost vs each race or an artificial scale set up the the rules. So if you feel the race is balanced even though it has a higher tier ability than the other races go for it, play with it and see if you were right or wrong. Note: one way to tell if you have under-costed something is if everyone takes the ability or power but this can also be skewed by the fact that if you create something interesting everyone may want to play it just for the fun factor.
Sorry for the rambling there in the middle but does that help?
MDC

Ciaran Barnes |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I would steer clear of making a playable race large. It is used better as a monster ability or a temporary player ability, in my opinion. If you are anything like me, you will grow weary as a GM of players having that increased reach. And besides, the standard black bear in Pathfinder is medium (though there are large versions too).
At low level at least, I think your shape change ability should function more in line with the alter self spell.

bitter lily |

Mark & Ciaran, thank you both of you. I'm still mulling Bear-kin over. Meanwhile... finally! Cat-kin are ready for comments! (FYI, this is the race I expect my sister to want to play.)
Cat-kin
In addition to feeling an urge to hunt and to satisfy their curiosity, nearly all cat-kin enjoy being the center of attention. Thus they value even quirky expressions of their strong individuality, and cat-kin performers are often the most artistic of all. However, only the unkind whisper that it is for the attention they crave that cat-kin are so notably generous to their family and friends; cat-kin themselves know that they value the individuals around them as much as their own individuality. At cat-kin celebrations, the guest of honor gives gifts to the guests. In fact, cat-kin can be even unwilling to barter for the goods they need; they often simply offer someone a gift, and wait with curiosity to see what gift will be proffered in return.
Physical Description In general, cat-kin are as lithe, slender, and tall as elves. While clearly bipedal humanoids, they possess many feline features, including pale green or grey eyes with slit pupils, long whiskers about their mouths, and ears that are pointed in a slightly rounded and catlike way on the top of their heads. Their soft fine fur is of smoky gray to yellowish tan, notably both front & back, although the fur on their fronts is much paler than that on their backs. It is all marked with grey in front or black in back open rosettes. (The snow leopards they resemble in animal shape have a whitish underside, but animals don’t present their bellies to the world!) They have an incredibly long and graceful tail – but thick and densely-furred rather than slender. They have normal humanoid hands with long, graceful fingers tipped with small and sadly non-retractable claws. These claws are not powerful enough to be used as weapons, but some cat-kin keep them sharp enough to scratch.
Society As with the other tribes (races), cat-kin society is defined primarily as clans traced through the mother's line. However, self-expression is such an important aspect of cat-kin culture, that it is easy to miss the fact that cat-kin even have clans. One rarely sees more than a couple and their young offspring moving through the forest at a time. Yet, as the saying goes, where you see one cat-kin, there's a dozen not that far off. It is a mystery to other races, however, how all these discrete individuals can maintain enough cohesiveness to function in the off-hand, cat-kin way as a clan. Certainly, a clan’s eldest female is more of an advisor than ruler, since the cat-kin are the least prone of all the animal-kin to following orders -- or indeed, to giving them.
Alignment Given their frequent indulgence in individuality and curiosity, almost all cat-kin are chaotic. Not only are they not interested in following orders, they often forget the promises they made yesterday in pursuit of the mystery they've spotted today. But they are so charming, they are usually forgiven! And with such generosity and appreciation for the individuals around them at the center of their culture, most cat-kin tend toward good alignments. They are far happier to ask questions first and perhaps make a new friend than to strike first and thus certainly make a new enemy. Even as hunters, they offer their prey respect.
Typical Names
Male: Carruth, Drewan, Ferus, Gerran, Nyktan, Rouqar, Zithembe.
Female: Alyara, Duline, Hoya, Jilyana, Milah, Miniri, Siphelele, Tiyeri.
Clan: Rock-walker, Tree-jumper, Mastodon-slayer, Lightning-flinger.
Cat-kin Racial Traits
(4 RP) Ability Scores +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Cat-kin are curious, perceptive, sociable, and extremely agile, but not as muscular as some others their size.
(0 RP) Type Cat-kin are humanoids with the animal-kin & shapechanger subtypes.
(0 RP) Size As Medium creatures, cat-kin have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
(0+1 RP) Speed Cat-kin have a base speed of 30 feet, and can move through natural difficult terrain at their normal speed while within hilly or mountainous terrain. Magically altered terrain affects them normally.
(2+1 RP) Athletic Cat-kin hunters excel at hunting prey from trees and other high vantage points; they possess a climb speed of 20 feet (along with the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks a climb speed affords), and are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
(1 RP) Low-Light Vision In dim light, cat-kin can see twice as far as those with normal vision. {How do I improve this?}
(1 RP) Cat's Luck (Ex) Once per day when a cat-kin makes a Reflex saving throw, he can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the saving throw is attempted.
(2 RP) Natural Armor Cat-kin gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.
(2 RP) Nimble Faller Because cat-kin have an amazing sense of balance and keen knowledge of their own center of gravity, they land on their feet even when they take lethal damage from a fall. Furthermore, they gain a +1 bonus to their CMD against trip maneuvers.
(2? RP) Weapon Proficiency Because cat-kin are trained from birth in certain cat-kin weapons, they are automatically proficient with the cestus (Lt Smp), hand crossbows (regular & repeating; Rgd Ex), and kukri (Lt Mar), which they call cat-kin knives – and they treat bolas (Rgd Ex) and the cat-kin claw gauntlet (Lt Ex; see below) as martial weapons. (Many cat-kin with martial weapon proficiency also favor sibats.)
Cat-kin Claw Gauntlet This is a Light Exotic gauntlet of thick leather or metal that has short curved blades protruding from the upper fingers and sharpened viciously on the inside edge, allowing you to slash with the force of a punch, as an armed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. You can cast spells, hold objects, reload crossbows, etc. with a gauntleted hand, but the weight of the blades causes you to suffer a -4 penalty on attacks you make with any other weapon wielded in a gauntleted hand, as well as on all precision-based tasks requiring a skill check that involve that hand (such as opening locks). Your opponent cannot disarm you of cat-kin claw gauntlets. Characters with proficiency in cat-kin claw gauntlets are considered to fill the prerequisite for the Rending Claws feat, and may gain its benefit if wearing two of them.
Cat-kin Claw Gauntlet ~ 20 gp ~ 1d4 Small ~ 1d6 Med ~ x2 Crit ~ n/a Rg ~ 2 lbs ~ B/S
(0 RP) Languages Cat-kin begin play speaking Common and Catkinese. Those with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Bearkinese, Dogkinese, Foxkinese, Giant, Kobold, Ratkinese, or Ravenkinese.
SQ Change Shape (su; (snow) leopard, Beast Shape I). {Cost?}
Beastspeech (su). {Just when in leopard shape; same as all animals; cost?}
Winter-Bred (ex). {Cost?}

bitter lily |

Ciaran, on language names, will do. They've been bothering me, too. I suppose for now, I can leave it blank.
Why no climb speed? I honestly thought this was one of the races that the feature was designed for.
And: Whew! I've been sweating trying to design my cat-kin claw gauntlets. I went out on a limb with them, and wasn't sure you'd like them.

Mark Carlson 255 |
I do not see normal cats vs humans as having any special armor to their skin.
Are you trying to base these on actual animals? If so do they have a normal animals claws/hands or human like hands?
Reach:
Yes I forgot the mention reach is a big thing for large creatures vs medium so this may be a reason why you restrict the base sizes to medium.
Cat Claw Gauntlets:
I did a quick search of the PSRD on weapons and did not see Nekode (cats claws: which I remember from AD&D under eastern weapons and ninja weapons) but you might try and find some info on the web and compare your design with theirs.
(IIRC they were listed in the Best of Dragon mag Vol 1 if you can find that on the web as my copy is in a box somewhere)
Going from memory the Nekode was 1-3, 1-4; 1 LB and in line with smal animals claws.
I did just remember though that I have my 3.0 Oriental Adventures that has the L5R stuff in it and they have the weapon listed as this:
Nekode * (special rules) Size: tiny cost 5gp, D=1-4 crit: x2, weight 2lb, type P
*special rules: cannot disarm a person wearing them, considered an armed attack but monks can use unarmed damage, if 2 are worn +1 to climb but not cumulative with climbing kit, bagh nakh (Tigers Claws) they say are close by used more like brass knuckles with the stats being the same but no bonus to climb.
Note: I seem to remember some where that bagh nakh added +1 to the damage base but that may have just been a house rule we came up with.
Note: The book also has listing's for tail spikes that may come in handy for other races.
MDC

Mark Carlson 255 |
In fact I just jumped to the Hengeyokai race and the animal form section and you many want to check out what they have done. They do not have a bear but do have a cat which shifts to a tiny cat, speed 30, AC 14 (-2 size, +2 dex), 2 claws 1d2-4, 1 bit 1d3-4; St3, Dex 15 and Con 10
They also have info on hybrid forms (which may be your base form), cat +2 dex and +4 balance.
MDC

Mark Carlson 255 |
One limitation also to remember is that from the description I read on the PSRD about beast shape, I did not see that your equipment resizes with you.
So this could be a big issue for your players if the size change is different from their normal size. In the past I have seen GM's rule different ways, 1) equipment destroyed if size change is larger, 2) equipment resizes not matter what size you change into, 3) Equipment drops to ground and 4) equipment is taken into your new form and when you change back then it is there for you to sue again.
How you deal with the above issue has a huge impact on just how useful the shape change ability is to the various races. For example if your bear race needs magical enchantments to protect their equipment from breaking or being destroyed every time they change it puts a big limit on the usefulness of the ability.
MDC

bitter lily |

Mark, these are anthropomorphic humanoids -- animals as humans, in a world without the latter. You're probably well familiar with the genre, but just in case, the easiest site for me to grab right now is the home site for Usagi Yojimbo (actual comics not included). Mind you, this is a case of me going for a theme that both my players are much more familiar with than I am!
For cat-kin NA: I looked at wiki source material for snow leopards and at the PF leopard write-up. In the latter, I saw 1 pt of Natural Armor, and my guys still have the fur, so... Of course, for dog-kin, my husband has stoutly defended removing the NA & the Eternal Hope that I wanted, while leaving in Scent, despite several attempts on my part to reverse these decisions. LOL; we're both looking at our dogs and seeing different things... In the end, as you'll see RSN, I decided to go with a more physical (Scent) option vs. not my NA/hopeful combo but rather a more educated (Skill Focus) option.
For bear-kin size: I'm listening to the arguments from you experienced GMs and cutting bear-kin back to Medium-sized. I may regret it, but I'm not heeding arguments on cutting out Beast Shape II; instead, I'm going to limit the shift the way it says in the Universal Monster Rules -- one step up (potentially to Large) or one step down (potentially to Tiny). In short, the shift-to-Tiny races have to be Small to shift down to their animal forms.
Interuption based on your last post: Good question about what happens to equipment. It gets absorbed, and when you shift back to humanoid form, it reappears, none the worse for wear. There might be special magic items that remain -- amulets, for instance.
In terms of their hands, picture if you can massively sized, fairly round hands with stubby fingers -- and a thumb -- at the end of sturdy arms on a heavy-set frame. (Think bears with a thumb.) Other than that, the anatomy isn't especially odd. So now, I want some sort of "use weapons designed for Large creatures" feature. What should it involve? What mix of Light, 1Handed, & 2Handed weapons? All of them? (To repeat myself from upthread, I had cut it the way that I did partly based on the Ursine material, and partly out of a vague sense that it would be easier to heft a too-large 1Hander than 2Hander with those hands -- bone structure isn't an issue. But I'm not wedded to that at all.
Of all the races, the cat-kin miss claws by far the most. They have fairly elven-like hands, except that the nails are tipped in non-damaging claws -- pure RP, in other words. (They do no significant damage, even of the non-lethal variety.) I may be over-thinking this, but it is NOT possible for a hand with long fingers to have retractable claws. And long, weapon-sharp, but not retractable claws at the ends of one's fingers would be a significant drawback in life... So they've spent considerable ingenuity, and gotten the bear-kin (the smiths) to invest more, in creating the very best artificial claws possible. I'm picturing something truly scary looking! OTOH, the gauntlet design that I'm picturing, with blades jutting out from the part of the fingers that would make contact with a punch, doesn't seem to me to be helpful for climbing. (I'm open to arguments to the contrary.) I perhaps also should have clarified that I'm looking at these as actual weapons, not "artificial" natural attacks. So the only way to get in two strikes with them on one attack action (for the rend) is to use 2WF.
Speaking of cat-kin claw gauntlets... Debnor has had a chance to look over my write-up, and wanted to edit the weapon familiarity. (Although he didn't in fact have problems with the gauntlets.) This is the new version:
(1 RP) Weapon Proficiency Because cat-kin are trained from birth in certain cat-kin weapons, they are always proficient with the cat-kin claw gauntlet (Lt Ex; see below), cat-kin knives (functionally identical to kukri, Lt Mar), and hand crossbows (regular & repeating; Rgd Ex). In addition, they treat bolas (Rgd Ex) as a martial weapon, although they prefer not to need them.
I am taking note of the stats for housecats, who also live with the cat-kin tribe. Thanks!
And in general, thank-you very much for all the interest you've shown. One more paragraph to finish, and I'll post dog-kin and be done for the night...

bitter lily |

Dog-kin
And their learning informs all of the tribes, as well. When dog-kin form a question they will go to great lengths to learn the answer. In fact, unlike the other nomadic tribes, they possess books, purchased from the trade city on the coast, and keep written records of precedents. Their wisdom and education means that the other tribes usually turn to dog-kin when they need an arbiter. The matriarchs of dog-kin clans usually form a council at common festival sites to compare notes and discuss current disputes.
The key to dog-kin learning is their “caravels,” which is what the dog-kin call their small wagons, fitted for much of the year as sleighs. While their caravels are far too small to live in, requiring the clan to erect tents when they arrive at their new campground, they permit the clan to carry with them many more possessions than most of the tribes consider necessary, and to keep more “sister” branches in the clan than most consider possible.
Conscious of their wealth and numbers, dog-kin consider hospitality to be among the greatest of virtues. When another clan – of any tribe – passes near a dog-kin campground, they are invited to stay with much feasting and story-telling. An even greater virtue for the dog-kin, however, is loyalty – to one’s clan and one’s own integrity. While they are far from the most warlike of the tribes, dog-kin will die for their own. And once a young dog-kin has found his role in life, it is unusual for that individual to abandon it – and then, never for personal pleasure. Communal good is the over-arching priority to a dog-kin. Because the greatest punishment dog-kin can inflict on one of their own is alienation from the clan, a lone dog-kin is usually regarded with suspicion by the other animal-kin.
Physical Description Dog-kin are stocky and only a bit taller than dwarves. Although bipedal humanoids, they have a fur coat, usually white in front and apricot, tan, reddish-brown, or chocolate on their heads & backs, with white markings. It is actually two coats, long and short, both thick and waterproof. Their brown eyes are almond-shaped, with black eye-rims; their ears are erect before they flop over and very mobile as they move in sensitivity with dog-kin's moods. They have a long muzzle for a mouth, and a dark brown or black button nose. Their tail is of long white hair, and curls up to touch their spine. Their hands are long, with stubby fingers and thumbs, just as their feet are long, with stubby toes; all their digits have nails in place of claws. When they take on dog shape, they closely resemble icelandic sheepdogs, a kind of spitz.
Society Dog-kin form the largest clans of the mobile tribes. Naturally, when a dog-kin clan moves to a new grazing spot, they do not bother with stealth. It is impossible for an observer to miss the brightly colored caravels, the small (natural) sheepdogs running and barking alongside a large flock of goats, or the whinnying herd of breeding ponies. The matriarch, the eldest woman of the clan, rules over this nomadic village. Because dog-kin clans usually retain “sister” branches instead of dividing them up into separate clans when a matriarch dies, control of the clan can pass from one branch to another upon the death or retirement of a matriarch. Thus dog-kin are more prone to politics than most of the other tribes. And division of the clan’s considerable assets can be quite problematic on those occasions when one or more sister branches do split off to become their own clans.
Alignment Dog-kin are extremely conservative and reliable. They indeed tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, and honor tradition, although they judge those who fall short of their duties only if asked to. Thus, most dog-kin are lawful. Given their strong interest in the community’s well-being and willingness to make personal sacrifices, most dog-kin are also good.
Dog-kin Racial Traits
(4 RP) +4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Dog-kin are above all hardy, but also smart, wise, and sociable; they are, however, not as strong as some.
(0 RP) Type Dog-kin are humanoids with the animal-kin & shapechanger subtypes.
(0 RP) Size As Medium creatures, dog-kin have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
(0+1 RP) Speed Dog-kin have a base speed of 30 feet, and can move through natural difficult terrain at their normal speed while within hilly or mountainous terrain. Magically altered terrain affects them normally.
(1 RP) Low-Light Vision In dim light, dog-kin can see twice as far as those with normal vision.
(2 RP) High Integrity Dog-kin gain a +2 racial bonus on Will saving throws to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) subschools. In addition, if a dog-kin fails such a save, it receives another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming the spell or spell-like ability has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If the dog-kin has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue's slippery mind class feature), it can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try the other on the second round if the first reroll ability fails.
(2+1 RP) Herder Herding is bred into a dog-kin’s blood. They get a +1 racial bonus to Animal Handling & Perception, and these are always class skills for them.
(1 RP) Weapon Proficiency Because dog-kin are trained from birth in certain dog-kin weapons, they are always proficient with the lasso (Rg Ex) and the scorpion whip (1H Ex).
(4 RP)< Scent Excellent trackers, some dog-kin gain the scent ability. – OR –
Focused Study At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, some dog-kin gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.>
(0 RP) Languages Dog-kin begin play speaking Common and the dog-kin language. Those with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages…
SQ Change Shape (su; Dog (small), Beast Shape I). {Cost?}
Beastspeech (su). {Just when in sheepdog shape; same as all animals; cost?}
Winter-Bred (ex). {Cost?}

Mark Carlson 255 |
Sorry, I crossed the streams.
I have been helping another guy for about a year that is doing something like you are doing and I got what you are doing mixed up with his last email. He is having trouble making up his mind bouncing between 2 systems and a home brew system and Anthro Animal (AA), AA+ 1 shape change, AA+ many shapes, Human (or equivalent)+ Super Shape. Human + super shape + other forms.
Also I do not know if you have access to other game material or even if you would want to look at it for ideas but if you are you can PM me for the info as I will not mention another companies product in the open.
I also ran a cloud leopard as a PC in another game system and had a blast with the RP.
MDC

bitter lily |

Mark, thanks for the encouragement -- I'm hoping we'll all have a lot of fun. As for other game material, I'm hoping to keep things as close to Core PF as I can, given that I'm using not-necessarily-Core classes and actually-homebrew races. In short, I'm grateful for the offer of other material, but for now I'm going to pass.

bitter lily |

Update on bear-kin; I'm still open to revisions for Leverage, but will probably not stress overly much about the price.
They also maintain forges for working metal, and work in stone as well. And the bear-kin are potters. It should be noted that all metals must be imported. Bear-kin create strong steel from iron, and typically use silver for decoration. Gold is extremely scarce—the folk importing precious metals have learned that the storms that spring up around a ship carrying gold to the land of Winter are not worth what they can get from the cargo when—if—they arrive. It should perhaps also be noted that most trade is based on barter, and thus the bear-kin maintain no coinage, although beautiful glass beads imported from Autumn serve as an informal and unmarked currency.
Physical Description Bear-kin are bear-like, bipedal humanoids with a thick coat of brown fur, angular ears near the top of the head, and a wide bear’s mouth. They have massive, round hands and feet, but with stubby fingers and toes in place of claws. They are of medium size, with the same height & weight as half-orcs. When they take on animal form, they grow to large size and resemble grizzly bears.
Society As with the other tribes (races), bear-kin society is defined primarily as clans traced through the mother’s line. Bear-kin, however, define “clan” much more loosely than the other tribes do. Many animal-kin maintain that bear-kin have no clans, in fact, just families and alliances. Certainly, clans do not travel together. Each clan maintains certain dens, usually near rat-kin warrens, as a place of safety for the cubs and a workspace for their forges and kilns. However, one can never be certain which families will be living at a specific den at any given time. They roam widely, settle for as long as they like at a den belonging to their clan, and then move on again when wanderlust strikes or nearby threats have been eliminated. Given that one clan will certainly invite traveling bear-kin of a different clan to move in with them if there is no den of their own clan nearby, one can see how outsiders would be confused. The biggest impact of “clan” for bear-kin may be in their rules of who can marry who, which are very detailed and obscure in the eyes of the other tribes.
Alignment Bear-kin tend toward a Neutral alignment. They keep to themselves to such an extent that they cannot be said to favor lawfulness, although are perhaps the most conservative of the tribes. And once they are committed to a cause, they become passionate to the point of chaotic in pursuing it. In terms of good vs. evil, bear-kin respect sentient life and war against the monsters who would wantonly take it. But they are often withdrawn or even surly. The thing is, that can mask a “wait and see” attitude; once bear-kin make up their minds to help someone in trouble, they will give everything they have, including their lives.
Bear-kin Racial Traits
(Inspired in part by Jon Brazer Enterprises' Ursines)
The italicized parts have been changed.
(4 RP) +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha Bear-kin are strong and hardy, but a bit surly or withdrawn.
(0 RP) Type Bear-kin are humanoids with the animal-kin & shapechanger subtypes.
(0 RP) Size Bear-kin are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
(0+1 RP) Speed Bear-kin have a base speed of 30 feet, and are never hampered by difficult terrain in hilly or mountainous regions, or by natural formations made of stone or earth (although magically altered terrain still affects them).
(1 RP) Low-Light Vision In dim light, bear-kin can see twice as far as humans.
(2 RP) Natural Armor Bear-kin gain a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.
(1 RP) Stability Bear-kin gain a +4 racial bonus to CMD when bull rush and trip attempts are made against them, as long as they are standing on the ground.
(1 RP) Relentless Bear-kin gain a +2 racial bonus to CMB on bull rush and overrun attempts they make, as long as both they and their opponent are on the ground.
(3? RP) Leverage Bear-kin suffer no penalties when wielding weapons made for Large-sized creatures, provided that the weapons do not provide reach. Bear-kin wielding weapons appropriate for Medium-sized creatures do not take any penalty while using them, and they do not wield them with less hands than normal.
(1 RP) Weapon Familiarity Because bear-kin are trained from birth in certain weapons, they are always proficient with bows, the bear-kin sword (functionally identical to the falcata - 1H Ex), and the bear-kin pole-hammer (functionally identical to the Lucerne Hammer – 2H Mar). Note that they use compound bows almost exclusively. {added as replacement for Tactical Insight}
(2+1 RP) Youthful Training At first level, bear-kin must choose any one Craft or Profession skill with a specialty useful to a small armed force, and invest one rank in that skill; they then gain a +2 racial bonus in that Craft or Profession. (Crafts such as blacksmith or weaponsmith, and Professions such as cook, medic, or messenger work well.) They also must choose one Knowledge skill at first level which they may use untrained. Both of the skills they picked are class skills for them.
(0 RP) Languages Bear-kin begin play speaking Common and Bearkinese. Bear-kin with high Intelligence scores may choose from the following languages...
SQ Change Shape (su; grizzly bear, Beast Shape II).
Beastspeech (su; only in animal form, which is the normal SQ for animals).
Winter-Bred (ex).

Mark Carlson 255 |
I think the rewrite of leverage is fine but I can see others having problems with it as the 1/2 giants ability really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
Q) Why would they have penalties for large reach weapons only?
Weapon Familiarity:
Q1) The bear-kin hammer would have reach right?
Q2) Would not most if not all bear kin weapons be large sized? Or should you note which weapons are large and which are not common in the community? Or is this too much detail?
MDC

bitter lily |

Thanks. Since this isn't being pubbed, I guess I try it, see if it's fun, and let people know. As for it not working on large reach weapons, they're... uh... long. I'm trying to visualize a half-orc-sized person wielding a weapon fit for a giant. I can pull it off with 1-H ones. I guess I can pull it off with 2-H ones, which are larger, but controlled with two hands. But now I'm sticking at polearms and so on, that have to be controlled far out when the near-end is under-sized.
In terms of which weapons are large, the bear-kin are the smiths, so they make most weapons Large, sure. Not those with reach. Pretty easy. Of course, if they have some handy for Medium-size people to pick up, well then, it's got to be listed.
So typical bear-kin swords are Large-sized and bear-kin hammers Medium.

bitter lily |

Ciaran, how are these language names?
Ursian, Felish, Canish, Vulpian, Murian, & Corvish
(bear, cat, dog, fox, rat, & raven)
Also, FYI to all of you,
My sister likes the Cat-kin! She's here, and she likes the premise! **happy dance around the dining room & living room**
Debnor wants to play a bear-kin & a dog-kin, so now I need to finish up the translation of rat-kin, and I'm going to call it quits. (I thought this would be easier than it is, since I had sources... I did.)

bitter lily |

Ciaran, Mark, anyone: After discussing it with Debnor, I'm also excepting bows from the "Leverage" ability. Again, picture if you would a Medium-sized character with a massive build, yes, wielding a weapon that's normally too big to control properly. Except that they're solid enough to pull it off with everything except... weapons with reach, bows, and what?
Economics question: I've got tiny Shadow Drakes (CR 2) & large Forest Drakes (CR 4) in this land in relative abundance. To make a medium-sized suit of Drake Leather armor, it presumably takes the hides of 8 Shadow Drakes or that of one Forest Drake. (I'm assuming that both are the generic "Dragonhide" special material, although there's a minor difference: Shadow Drakehide is immune to cold, while Forest Drakehide is immune to acid -- neither benefits the wearer.)
Which is likely to be more expensive?
(Added note: Actual Green Dragonhide armor is going to be more expensive than either, clearly. Green dragons are not all that common, however. White Dragonhide is the most expensive you'll find, and quite a boast, let me tell you. For my 5th-levelers, we're talking drakehide.)

bitter lily |

My beloved bedeviler, Debnor, has decided to play a Lore Oracle as his second character. I hadn't looked at the class before. He just sat there and grinned -- all this is me.
"CHA for Knowledges, check. CHA for... what's this? AC? Reflex?"
<flip, flip, flip through the APG>
"OMG, there must be a nerf for this..."
<click, click, click through the FAQ>
"There isn't, and it's now CMD, TOOOOO?"
"OMG, why haven't they flooded the game?"

Mark Carlson 255 |
IMHO, in general for economics you have to look at ease of acquiring the materials, ease of manufacture and willingness of people to pay.
So even a lesser armor can be more expensive than a good armor if it's materials are harder to come by and or more difficult to manufacture. So why do it you ask? Well sometimes all you have is what you got, by that I mean when you are in an area with limited resource options you use what you have it is not as simple as sending a message to PFAmamzon.com and having said item dropped off in the middle of the jungle for a reasonable fee. There can also be some social/cultural issues with items and thus be required to use them vs other items that are superior. ie all the good people use weapons, X, Y and Z and all evil people (our enemies) use all other weapons.
As a general rule I think I might increase the number of tiny creatures it takes to make armor as it is quite possible their is more unusable parts on smaller creatures.
The is a question I often ask "This is so good why does not everyone have it? Or the people that do have it rule the world?"
MDC

bitter lily |

In terms of limited resource options, Mark, I was looking at that. These people don't waste metal on armor, except for something like studded leather. It just uses up too much. Yes, it's better, and a bear-kin warchief might have it. But the younger men? {OR women} No way.
Now, horn lamellar they could have developed. Although I'm trying to visualize horn platelets. They don't have lacquer, so if the Japanese came up with horn platelets because it was the lacquer that turned the horn into a defensive material, we're hosed. Over here at my house, we're thinking that the dog-kin would shave the horn into thin slices that would get glued together -- ie, laminated. That sounds fairly sturdy to me -- not as good as metal, but still decent as armor. However, none of the PCs seems to want horn lamellar, so it doesn't matter much. I'm a bit curious about what workmanship to postulate here, but it doesn't really matter for getting the game going.
Now, leather armor made out of drakehide is a different matter -- I have two PCs looking at taking it. And now I've talked myself into a qualitative difference. The green drakeskin is whole, hence fewer seams, and so gets the armor bonus advertised, no ups, no extras.
Those tiny shadow drakehides that are pieced together -- and sure, I can say it actually takes 10 of them -- have too many seams to be as sturdy, and so take a -1 armor penalty that isn't eliminated by being enchanted. OTOH, the armor can be tailored or be a lot more mottled. (The belly of any animal is paler than its back; shadow drakes could easily be a blue-charcoal on their backs and a yellowish-smoke on their bellies.) So I'm now thinking of saying that a good dog-kin armorer can turn a pile of shadow-drake hides into highly fashionable armor (at -1 armor but +4 to certain Diplomacy checks), or into highly camouflaged armor (at -1 armor but +4 to certain Stealth checks). I have to say "certain checks" because there's going to be interactions where fashion actually dis-impresses people and environments where mottled greys just don't blend in.
Is +4 to reasonable Diplomacy or Stealth checks a suitable bonus to off-set a -1 armor bonus? Again, we're talking about 10 tiny drakehides in varying grays stitched together to create, in essence, fine tailoring or army fatigues for leather-type armor. Two PCs want to know. And my game starts tomorrow...

Statboy |

After watching Zoopotia I made some homebrew animal classes for my little sister. They're all around 10 RP and balanced well. Here's a link to them
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AsIdAiiNWpi6gRCL0tTKsuAgg9fF
I added
Bjorn: Bear
Amarok: Wolf
Nyani: Gorilla's
Centzon: Bunnies
Draconian: Medium humanoid eastern dragon's

bitter lily |

Stat adjustments These are the size, language, and stat bonuses for the various races, after some adjustments:
Bear-kin ~ Medium ~ Ursian ~ +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Int/Wis/Cha
Cat-kin ~ Medium ~ Felish ~ +4 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int/Wis/Cha
Dog-kin ~ Medium ~ Canish ~ +4 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Str/Dex/Con {Edited}
Fox-kin ~ Small ~ Vulpian ~ +4 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Str/Dex/Con {Edited}
Rat-kin ~ Small ~ Murian ~ +4 Con, -2 Str, +2 Int/Wis/Cha
Raven-kin ~ Small ~ Corvish ~ +4 Wis, -2 Cha, +2 Str/Dex/Con
And... my LAST race, for now. I'm trusting that the others just won't come up in a couple of weeks of game, at least, not to the point of needing a detailed write-up.
The Rat-kin (Reek-kin)
Nonetheless, those stationary rat-kin homes are frequent destinations and gathering places for the other tribes. And those stationary rat-kin can farm. They grow bulb & root vegetables, along with herbs, during the short summer months, and mushrooms the rest of the year. To an extent, they also grow poisonous plants and brew poisons from them. Finally, they are the principal traders, exchanging goods from one tribe to the next – and from all the tribes with the people of Autumn, at Autumn-port. In this way, they get hardtack bread and metals for the people of their society. They are the most likely tribe to think in terms of “cost” and “value” for goods. Bear-kin usually find or build dens near rat-kin warrens. Rat-kin warrens are built for their height – even fox-kin or raven-kin have to duck, although unfortunately, kobolds fit inside just fine.
Physical Description Rat-kin are small, a couple of inches shorter than halflings. Although bipedal humanoids, they have a coarse fur coat, usually light gray or brown in front and dark gray or brown on their heads & backs, with a long furless tail. They have beady black eyes; their ears are erect but rounded. They have a long muzzle for a mouth, and a pink nose. Their hands have long fingers and thumbs, just as their feet are long, with long, almost prehensile toes; all of their digits have nails in place of claws. When they take on rat shape, they closely resemble brown Norway rats, or common rats, rather than black rats.
Society Rat-kin form large clans that take advantage of their stable food source from farming. The matriarch, the eldest woman of the clan, rules over what amounts to a village, although individuals often flout her orders if they perceive individual advantage to it. In fact, rat-kin are among the few tribes to have an internal problem with theft.
Alignment Rat-kin are often greedy and interested in their own advantage. At the same time, most rat-kin see their individual advantage in contributing to the common good, and certainly rat-kin prefer to leave killing to the other tribes, rather than kill for pleasure. Hence they are typically true neutral.
Rat-kin Racial Traits
(4 RP) +4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: rat-kin are extremely hardy and gifted mentally, but fairly weak.
(0 RP) Type Rat-kin are humanoids with the animal-kin & shapechanger subtypes.
(0 RP) Size As Small creatures, rat-kin gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on CMB and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
(-1 RP) Speed Rat-kin have a base speed of 20 feet.
(4 RP) Blindsense 60 Feet Using acute hearing, rat-kin notice things they cannot see. Members of this race usually do not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within 60 feet, provided they have line of effect to that creature. See Blindsense.
(-3? RP) Vision 30 Feet While rat-kin can see in the dark up to 30 feet away, they cannot see anything more than dim shapes further than 30 feet away.
(4 RP) Scent Rat-kin gain the scent ability. (They also have ultra-sonic hearing.)
(1 RP) Plagueborn Rat-kin gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease, ingested poisons, and becoming nauseated or sickened.
(1 RP) Swarming Rat-kin are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two rat-kin can share the same square at the same time. If two rat-kin in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
(1 RP) Poison Use Rat-kin are skilled with poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying it to weapons.
(5 RP) Silent Dodger Blending easily into their environments and moving nimbly about, rat-kin always consider Acrobatics & Stealth to be class skills, and gain a +1 racial bonus on those checks. They also reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (including the penalty reduction from this trait).
(0 RP) Languages Rat-kin begin play speaking Common and Murish. Those with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Autumnal, Canish, Corvish, Felish, Kobold, Ursian, and Vulpish
SQ Change Shape (su; brown rat (tiny), Beast Shape II).
Beastspeech (su). {Just when in rat shape; same as all animals}
Winter-Bred (ex).

bitter lily |

Dox, I can do that. Thanks!
After watching Zoopotia I made some homebrew animal classes for my little sister. They're all around 10 RP and balanced well. Here's a link to them
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AsIdAiiNWpi6gRCL0tTKsuAgg9fF
Hi! Well-met!
However, I don't know that I can bear to look at a new base for starting over. Do you see any glaring probs in what I've posted? Note: I'm going for about 15 pts not counting the SQ, which I never priced. That should make for about 20 pts. total -- Advanced races, for sure.
And Ciaran, or anyone else who's been waiting on the set, can you paw through the thread?