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I just thought of a problem with Cuup's suggestion of scribing lots of your own scrolls on your off days. If you're scribing wizard or cleric spells using those spirits, can you still use those scrolls on days when you're channeling a different spirit? I think on days when you're channeling a champion for adventuring, you'd probably need a UMD check to use the scrolls of cleric spells you scribed on your hierophant days, or wizard spells you scribed on your archmage days.
So besides Scribe Scroll, you'd also need to invest heavily in UMD, and hope you never fail those rolls at a crucial time.
I wanted to play a party buffer that allows bonusses on failed rolls (!)
And again, there's no reason to bother with the medium for this, when bards already do the same thing, only better. There are several bard spells in the Advanced Players Guide that can be used as immediate actions after someone fails a roll - Timely Inspiration, Gallant Inspiration, Saving Finale, and possibly more.
I like the medium. they're the one class that can completely and effectively deal with haunts.
Any positive channeler with good perception and initiative is good enough at that, while pretty much always being much better at other things.
Also, the Haunt Collector archetype for occultists (in Horror Adventures) gets the medium's Haunt Channeler ability, on an already superior class.
Like I said, I love the concept and fluff behind the medium, but the class really doesn't work. If you want to use the champion spirit all the time for a martial PC, it's good enough, and I'll probably make one that way eventually. I just wish the class really was as flexible and useful in a variety of situations as it pretends to be.
I like Medium, I'm not sure why you hate them so much, but whatever man.
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There is at least one, and probable quite a few more PFS scenarios where having the Trickster as a backup would make you very happy as a martial-focused character. (Who takes Knowledge(nobility)??)
I still think the Trickster can have a lot of value in PFS. You can fill in those missing skills that can crop up in a group of random players. You can always channel Champion if there aren't any skills your party is missing.
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I just thought of a problem with Cuup's suggestion of scribing lots of your own scrolls on your off days. If you're scribing wizard or cleric spells using those spirits, can you still use those scrolls on days when you're channeling a different spirit? I think on days when you're channeling a champion for adventuring, you'd probably need a UMD check to use the scrolls of cleric spells you scribed on your hierophant days, or wizard spells you scribed on your archmage days.
So besides Scribe Scroll, you'd also need to invest heavily in UMD, and hope you never fail those rolls at a crucial time.
I wanted to play a party buffer that allows bonusses on failed rolls (!)And again, there's no reason to bother with the medium for this, when bards already do the same thing, only better. There are several bard spells in the Advanced Players Guide that can be used as immediate actions after someone fails a roll - Timely Inspiration, Gallant Inspiration, Saving Finale, and possibly more.
I like the medium. they're the one class that can completely and effectively deal with haunts.Any positive channeler with good perception and initiative is good enough at that, while pretty much always being much better at other things.
Also, the Haunt Collector archetype for occultists (in Horror Adventures) gets the medium's Haunt Channeler ability, on an already superior class.
Like I said, I love the concept and fluff behind the medium, but the class really doesn't work. If you want to use the champion spirit all the time for a martial PC, it's good enough, and I'll probably make one that way eventually. I just wish the class really was as flexible and useful in a variety of situations as it pretends to be.
Another problem I noted is that when you switch to archmage your spells become arcane so you suddenly habe arcane spell failure %.
The utility of the trickster for the "we need someone who can win the combination bake-off/tap-dancing competition for us" scenarios, really depends on the value of a single day in the structure of the campaign.
I've thought about trying to build a dedicated trickster build so I can just pick two skills to be ace in every day, but the lack of feats for the class really hurts here.
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So it's got full BAB attack rolls, a damage bonus on every weapon attack, as long as you stick to the champion spirit.
And that's about it. No bonus feats, smites, favored enemies, rage, or any of the other stuff that makes full BAB classes better than 3/4 BAB in combat.
So the ability to use any found weapon, given a day notice, from level 1. An extra attack at full bonus that stacks with haste at level 6. "Pounce" with any weapon at level 11.
The medium actually makes a good two weapon fighter because the spirit bonus is not halved on the offhand.
As I said later in the post you quoted, the champion spirit does get enough to make for a playable martial class, though probably still weaker than a well built PC of any full BAB class.
But again, the class advertises itself based on its flexibility. The ability to take different spirits is what makes it interesting. And that's what doesn't work. Every PC build I've seen discussed on these forums is champion focused, because the other spirits just aren't good enough to build around, unless they take an archetype that completely redefines how the class works.
Really, the best use for this class is a single level dip on any martial PC, just for the champion spirit bonus and seance bonus giving you +3 to every damage roll, the +2 will save bonus, and a few spirit surges per day on attack rolls and fort saves. That's what I did on my two weapon fighting unchained rogue in PFS, because I agree completely about TWF being the best fighting style to take advantage of the damage bonuses.
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So I was just looking at putting a Medium together, and one of the things that I noticed was that the lower the point-buy of the game, the more useful a Medium was.
In a 15 (or, goddess-forbid, 10 pt game) your ability to move your stat-bonus around daily becomes more valuable. No matter which spirit you use, your casting stat is always CHA, so you're paradoxically a rather SAD character. Just don't dump any of your stats, and you'll be fine when you need to focus on them.
I think the guardian might be viable as the main spirit IF you take a level dip to get rage and the extra rage feat to help it's offense as the guardian provides some nice defensive stuff.
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The utility of the trickster for the "we need someone who can win the combination bake-off/tap-dancing competition for us" scenarios, really depends on the value of a single day in the structure of the campaign.
I've thought about trying to build a dedicated trickster build so I can just pick two skills to be ace in every day, but the lack of feats for the class really hurts here.
The Trickster is much less valuable outside of PFS. In a campaign, your group roles and skills are established, and so the Medium will always be duplicating skills or picking really niche skills. In PFS, you may sit at a table without a Diplomacy bonus, or a relevant knowledge skill, or Disable Device.
A DEX Trickster won't be doing much damage before level 5, so you need to be pretty creative about contributing for early levels. Either Aid Another or Intimidate might be more effective than attacking for awhile. Of course, a STR Medium can wield any simple two-handed weapon and get by through early levels. A Trickster doesn't really need stats to be great at skills, so you are free to go more MAD than you might otherwise build.
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I'd like to see a 'Swap Spirit' feat that allows a Medium to switch to a new spirit (including their current one with different options chosen). Could easily be kept from being too powerful by increasing influence and/or taking time to switch... but would allow the Medium to respond to situations as they come up rather than having to guess in advance.
If the spirit dancer was 1 minute per use instead of 1 round then I think that'd suffice. Right now if you wanted to channel 3 times to heal up the party after a fight, or cast lesser restoration, you'd be running out of rounds for the day.
For mediums you have to play with the options a bit.
Champion gets pounce and some spellcasting. I combo with eldritch heritage to grab an ac boost and wings. Yeah we're not a paladin but...
Archmage gives you planar binding, some undead spells, the ability to conjure castles, and other downtime spells
Hierophant gives you the rest of the undead spells, rounds out downtime divination, and let's you in house "fix" health problems.
The medium list itself gives you immortality (both possession spells and reincarnate, so reincarnate yourself), good to-hit boosters, ect).
Trickster can give you spellcraft to make items so no need to burn those skill points
They other spirits do feed into champion performance through off time.
Also a build
DT Human Medium TN || 17 14 14 10 8 16 || Fave +¼ spirit surge || Bluff, Diplomacy, Perception, Use Magic Device || Traits: Natural-Born Leader, Blood of Dragons(low-light vision) || Feats: Skill Focus(perception), Craft Wondrous Item, Power Attack, Leadership, Eldritch Heritage(Red Dragon), Improved Eldritch Heritage(Resilience), Improved Eldritch Heritage(Breadth), Spirit Focus(Marshal), Greater Eldritch Heritage, Barroom Brawler
Spells:
0th: prestidigitation, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand, grave words, haunted fey aspect
1st: enlarge person, silent image, disguise self, remove fear, burst of insight
2nd: heroism, haste, tactical acumen, invisibility, spider climb, placebo effect
3rd: possession, dimension door, invisibility (greater), remove curse, fly, dispel magic
4th: reincarnate, command (greater), break enchantment, plane shift, teleport
So I was just looking at putting a Medium together, and one of the things that I noticed was that the lower the point-buy of the game, the more useful a Medium was.
In a 15 (or, goddess-forbid, 10 pt game) your ability to move your stat-bonus around daily becomes more valuable. No matter which spirit you use, your casting stat is always CHA, so you're paradoxically a rather SAD character. Just don't dump any of your stats, and you'll be fine when you need to focus on them.
Add in Divine fighting technique of Desna and Noble scion of war feats, then contact the Lich archmage legendeary spirit to start the lichdom path at higher levels. The SADdest of any Medium life
I just thought of a problem with Cuup's suggestion of scribing lots of your own scrolls on your off days. If you're scribing wizard or cleric spells using those spirits, can you still use those scrolls on days when you're channeling a different spirit? I think on days when you're channeling a champion for adventuring, you'd probably need a UMD check to use the scrolls of cleric spells you scribed on your hierophant days, or wizard spells you scribed on your archmage days.
You are correct that you will need to pass your UMD checks to use any Arcane or Divine scrolls, but Cha should be your secondary stat anyway, and UMD is a class skill. You get 4+Int skill ranks per level, so you're not really hurting for skills (especially since you can have max ranks in anything you want on Trickster days); maxing UMD shouldn't be an investment, anyway - it's a great skill to have maxed. I believe in my original post, I said that one of my feats was Skill Focus (UMD). I also have a 4-leaf clover, which gives me a +2 Luck bonus (Fate's Favored trait for +3) on any save or ability/skill check 3 times per day. It costs under 4k, which isn't a big deal at level 13. I only need to use the 4-leaf clover if I'm using a 5th-level scroll (my current highest), and that's really just as insurance. Out of combat, our Bard can Inspire Competence so I don't even need to use the clover then.
So, if you consider a feat, a cheap magic item, and maxing out a skill I'd normally be maxing out anyway to be "heavy investment", then OK. I don't, though. And meanwhile, I still have an impressive collection of scrolls that'll be useful in dozens of different scenarios, which - should I be otherwise unable to use them - can still be used by the party Cleric or Bard probably 80% of the time.
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At level 13, that's fine. And yes, I'd assume most mediums will keep UMD maxed. The feat's not even that big an investment - you can use the feat that gets you different feats for each spirit to only have Scribe Scroll with your Hierophant and Archmage spirits, while having something else on the others.
But at low levels, the four leaf clover will be expensive. Actually, a circlet of persuasion would be a more reliable way to boost UMD, but it's also expensive at low levels. So at lower levels, you're scribing your own scrolls during down time, and then have a reasonable chance of failing to cast them when it matters. It might be worth trying, but it's not something I'd do from level 1 when your UMD is in the single digits.
At level 13, that's fine. And yes, I'd assume most mediums will keep UMD maxed. The feat's not even that big an investment - you can use the feat that gets you different feats for each spirit to only have Scribe Scroll with your Hierophant and Archmage spirits, while having something else on the others.
But at low levels, the four leaf clover will be expensive. Actually, a circlet of persuasion would be a more reliable way to boost UMD, but it's also expensive at low levels. So at lower levels, you're scribing your own scrolls during down time, and then have a reasonable chance of failing to cast them when it matters. It might be worth trying, but it's not something I'd do from level 1 when your UMD is in the single digits.
Fair point about the magic item, but who's really scribing scrolls at level 1? I'm not the swiss army knife of scrolls at level 1, but at that level, I'd argue that my Spirit Bonuses and Seance Boons are at their most valuable, letting me arguably out-perform the Fighter. They're obviously still very valuable at 13th level, too.
I will concede that a player with system mastery making an optimized character in literally any niche will out-perform the Medium doing the same thing, and unfortunately, that's rewarded by the game more than generalization every day of the week. But, that same player could also make a perfectly competent Medium, able to comfortably perform his roll in the group, while also being able to prepare for most anything with the right forewarning. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I don't think you do either - you're right that 9 times out of 10, the Champion spirit is going to be the favored spirit, which is definitely unfortunate. As long as I've made my case that the Medium isn't a BAD class, I'm happy :)
P.S. What feat are you referring to?
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The feat is Legendary Influence from Ultimate Intrigue. I just looked at it again, and it actually doesn't work with item creation feats, such as Scribe Scroll, so I was wrong about that part. Still a good feat to know about for anyone building a medium.
Again, my point is that the champion spirit can make for an ok martial PC, but that's pretty much it. At low levels, the other spirits are just plain awful. At higher levels, they upgrade to being almost playable, but still significantly worse than average for their roles.
And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
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And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.
I have found 1 other acceptable use for a different spirit.
NEGATIVE ENERGY CHANNELER!!!
Yeah, not that it's super great, but this makes your only reliant on CHA for channel and spells, and it's the only other non-evil option to cleric that can get it.
Still would be better with the storyteller archetype, but hey. It's something.
Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
No, those spirits should have something interesting and enticing to make you need to decide between them and a different option. If all of them are clear losers then there's never a reason to pick them and this class is really boring because it's losing it's "main class feature"
I think the medium could work well with a natural attack build. One of those skinwalkers that can get Bite, Gore, Claw, Claw, Hoof, Hoof would really get a lot of mileage out of the bonus accuracy, damage and pounce without having to worry about things like half strength to this attack, three or four kinds of weapon focus etc.
But that's still the champion spirit, which many feel makes for an okay damage dealer and is a usable class. It's the other spirits that have no reason to be the main spirit.
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No, those spirits should have something interesting and enticing to make you need to decide between them and a different option. If all of them are clear losers then there's never a reason to pick them and this class is really boring because it's losing it's "main class feature"Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
Except they're not "clear losers", it's today I frontline, tomorrow I can deal with traps, the day after I can heal, etc
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Except they're not "clear losers", it's today I frontline, tomorrow I can deal with traps, the day after I can heal, etcNo, those spirits should have something interesting and enticing to make you need to decide between them and a different option. If all of them are clear losers then there's never a reason to pick them and this class is really boring because it's losing it's "main class feature"Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
So your party only has a front line for 1 out of 3 days?
So your party only has a trap dealer for 1 out of 3 days?So your party only has a healer for 1 out of 3 days?
the heirophant is a loser to the cleric and oracle.
The trickster is a loser to the rogue, investigator, all the other rogue replacers.
The guardian is a decent tank, but issues that it can't hit to well nor for all that much.
The champion is a good damage dealer. He has unique and cool abilities that let him fill the damage dealer role and be different from the barb/fighter, just can't pull off feat intensive builds well.
In a party of roles, someone that doesn't fill the role well is overshadowed by one who does. And for the medium, the only competitive role is damage dealer with champion.
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Except they're not "clear losers", it's today I frontline, tomorrow I can deal with traps, the day after I can heal, etcNo, those spirits should have something interesting and enticing to make you need to decide between them and a different option. If all of them are clear losers then there's never a reason to pick them and this class is really boring because it's losing it's "main class feature"Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
So your party only has a front line for 1 out of 3 days?
So your party only has a trap dealer for 1 out of 3 days?
So your party only has a healer for 1 out of 3 days?the heirophant is a loser to the cleric and oracle.
The trickster is a loser to the rogue, investigator, all the other rogue replacers.
The guardian is a decent tank, but issues that it can't hit to well nor for all that much.
The champion is a good damage dealer. He has unique and cool abilities that let him fill the damage dealer role and be different from the barb/fighter, just can't pull off feat intensive builds well.In a party of roles, someone that doesn't fill the role well is overshadowed by one who does. And for the medium, the only competitive role is damage dealer with champion.
And if you're in a party with those roles already filled you don't have to play them, or you double them up. And a "party" definitely has roles filled, otherwise it's not a party, it's you playing by yourself.
The Medium is versatile, that's its thing.
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Can we stop pretending that Pathfinder boils down to combat, combat, and the oft forgotten combat? Yes, combat is a huge part of most Pathfinder games, but with other elements - not just mentioned here and there, but consisting of entire books - like downtime, intrigue, and let's not forget occult mysteries (you know, from that one book the Medium is from), combat doesn't need to be the main focus of every Pathfinder campaign. Every table functions differently. Some tables sit down and slog through four, five, or more combats; healing, sleeping, and buffing in between, and then ending, and that's just fine. Some other tables are inclined to maybe one combat in the entire session, with social encounters, puzzles, exploring, and traveling filling the majority of their night, which is also just fine. Other tables still could have entire weeks go by without seeing a single initiative roll, focusing instead of politics, which is - you guess it - just fine. This thread wasn't started with PFS in mind, though that's also swell. This thread was started to ask "what can the Medium do?" and somehow it turned into "why isn't the Medium optimized?"
In groups that focus heavily on combat (including PFS) - yeah, you're gonna favor the champion spirit by default, and you're gonna be a pretty run-of-the-mill dps-er. In other groups that don't require the party to have predetermined rolls filled before session one, though, that can throw RP curve balls and have spans of downtime, mysteries to solve, and fancy dinner galas to attend, that same Medium can spread his wings and be more things without the dungeon-crawling system Pathfinder's built around punishing him for not specializing. He can favor the Archmage if he wants to. Yeah, a Wizard is gonna beat him in every aspect of being an arcane caster, but that Wizard can't sack his spells to instead max out his Diplomacy and Sense Motive rolls when the Baroness of ViewSonic arrives to inspect the progress on the canal to Dell.
THAT'S what the Medium can do. It can't be as good as a dedicated blank of a different class in the same niche, but it can switch its niche to fit tomorrow's set of problems, whatever they are, which no other class can do - in that aspect, it beats even the Wizard. It's not going to work in every group, or every setting, and that's just fine.
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I think it's tricky, since the medium is stronger the more often the party decides they're done for the day and everybody can rest and redo their daily rituals, but a lot of GMs try to extend adventuring days so certain classes with limited per day powers can't just nova continuously and then rest when they're out of silver bullets.
What the Medium really needs is some way to take 15-60 minutes in order to change spirits for the rest of the day, but without being limited by rounds like the spirit dancer. I get bookkeeping for spell slots is going to be tough if you're switching between the Champion and the Hierophant and back, but "okay, everybody, let's go to sleep so I can channel the spirit that can handle this problem" sort of takes a lot of the oomph out of the class.
The Medium is versatile, that's its thing.
The issue is over what timeframe that versatility can be applied. If I ask for help on a construction task and they offer me a 40 year old accountant with no construction experience or a 4 year old, I'm going to pick the accountant. Sure, the toddler is versatile and I can train him to be a good and more physically fit carpenter or whatever, but I don't have 14 years to wait.
Versatility in Pathfinder is more often a right now or at least today thing than a maybe tomorrow thing. People mostly like Wizards for versatility because they can fill empty slots in 15 minutes, not because they can fill all their slots tomorrow. Both have their role, but all else equal sooner is better.
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A medium would also make an interesting primary villain for a group. They could fight against her several times, with her abilities changing up significantly, depending on who her allies were, which makes her unpredictable and hard to plan for.
I mean, the real issue is that the medium doesn't work very well in the environment where Pathfinder is usually played -- having a set party taking on standard challenges. In a situation where the party changes constantly (like some drop in games I played years ago where everyone only had one character, but you never knew which of the 5 out of 15 possible people was going to show up) a medium would be handy. Similarly, I can imagine some tournament situations where a medium would shine.
I've made an RPG career out of generalist characters that are the second or third best in the party at everything. That niche is narrower in Pathfinder than in a lot of other games, but it does still exist. The medium is a weird variant of that -- specialists generally thrive in high information environments and generalists in low information environments. Mediums should thrive when you have late-breaking information -- you didn't know which specialist you needed when you hired the team, but you do the morning of the job.
The Medium is versatile, that's its thing.
I'm not sure if versatile is the right word. The medium can do several different things on several different days, but at any given point in time the medium is not particularly versatile and if you pick the wrong shtick at the start of the day you're more or less screwed.
The medium excels in a scenario where on any given day you have one task. If you do nothing but fight on day 1 and do nothing but skill challenges on day 2 and have downtime on day 3 the Medium is pretty good, but I wouldn't call that versatile, because if on day 1 you have two big fights and then you need a skill monkey the medium isn't going to be able to help you.
THAT'S what the Medium can do. It can't be as good as a dedicated blank of a different class in the same niche, but it can switch its niche to fit tomorrow's set of problems, whatever they are, which no other class can do - in that aspect, it beats even the Wizard.
But it doesn't. The spirits aren't that strong. That's the thing. Yeah, wonderful, the Medium can be good at combat on one day and good at skills on the next day and be a pinch caster on the third day.
But the Bard or Inquisitor or Investigator or Wizard can do all three of those, just as well, on the same day.
How often do you run campaigns where each day has a specific activity? Because from my experience that's fairly abnormal.
He can favor the Archmage if he wants to. Yeah, a Wizard is gonna beat him in every aspect of being an arcane caster, but that Wizard can't sack his spells to instead max out his Diplomacy and Sense Motive rolls when the Baroness of ViewSonic arrives to inspect the progress on the canal to Dell.
Yeah, but if the Baroness shows up on the Medium's Archmage day that doesn't matter, he's still just a s+#*tier wizard.
Cuup, the concern being raised about the class isnt relevant to the game being played differently. Exploration or occult of political games are of course fine and if that is what the GM is running than hopefully they communicated that ahead of time and the players arent showing up with characters that cant perform in those kinds of games. But rarely do games go through a structure that fits with what the medium provides where you need to have capacity X here and then tomorrow capacity Y and so on, normally you will either know the majority capacity needed is X and then when you need Y it wont be a solid day off and needed all day until you go back to X. Often the Y need will be an interrupt or intermittent need and the medium cant respond to that any better than other classes can, in that they need to withdraw, rest a night and "memorize new spells" to handle the situation. i would say that a full caster with the same knowledge as a Medium as to what is coming will still out perform them. and if the spell caster guessed wrong as to what was needed on a given day than the medium is just as likely to have guessed wrong. But what the caster provides that the medium cant is the ability to say at the start of the day is, "I am going for a 60/40 split between utility and combat spells" so they can take part in the majority action of the day and then have the powers ready when the interrupt comes along.
Well put. Yes, the Medium is held back by the flow of info at his disposal. To me, that's all part of the fun. The tables I play at aren't the types to go "you should have channeled the Champion today, but you channeled the Marshal. Now, you're dead. I suppose in other groups, where the pressure to always be optimized and ready to perform at 100% at every turn is always present, that's not as attractive. My style of play is clearly the minority. That kind of bums me out, but I guess that's the way it is.
I haven't used Medium myself, but a lot of games I've run have been big on providing foreknowledge for what the day will require. Combat, research, or dealing with something that needs magic.
They've also been pretty big on haunts, now that I think about it.
Except they're not "clear losers", it's today I frontline, tomorrow I can deal with traps, the day after I can heal, etcNo, those spirits should have something interesting and enticing to make you need to decide between them and a different option. If all of them are clear losers then there's never a reason to pick them and this class is really boring because it's losing it's "main class feature"Yes, and all of those classes should be better than a Medium channeling spirits of them.And no, it doesn't take any system mastery to make a better PC than a medium channeling the other spirits. Any newbie who spends a week reading the Core Rulebook can make a wizard or sorcerer that's more effective than a medium channeling the archmage spirit. Same with clerics that are better than the hierophant spirit, bards that are better than the marshall spirit, and rogues that are better than the trickster spirit.
So your party only has a front line for 1 out of 3 days?
So your party only has a trap dealer for 1 out of 3 days?
So your party only has a healer for 1 out of 3 days?the heirophant is a loser to the cleric and oracle.
The trickster is a loser to the rogue, investigator, all the other rogue replacers.
The guardian is a decent tank, but issues that it can't hit to well nor for all that much.
The champion is a good damage dealer. He has unique and cool abilities that let him fill the damage dealer role and be different from the barb/fighter, just can't pull off feat intensive builds well.In a party of roles, someone that doesn't fill the role well is overshadowed by one who does. And for the medium, the only competitive role is damage dealer with champion.
My current party has a Hunter (me), a Slayer who is focusing more on a STR 2-hander-build than skills and trapfinding, a Sorcerer, and a Medium. Notably, we all dumped CHA except the medium (the Sorcerer is the INT based bloodline). So we lack a face, a tank, a skill monkey, and while we don't neeeed another melee damage dealer, it's always appreciated. We also can always use Divine Spells beyond the relative few my Hunter has (I'm focused on healing and summoning and a few buffs. There's a lot of gaps)
Our medium having access to the Divine and the Skill Monkey spirit has really helped us out so far. So in a small party, that has some serious gaps and is possibly not the most optimized group ever, the Medium can thrive.
That said, I'd probably take a Cleric or Inquisitor over the Medium in this specific case. But I've seen (or been in) quite a few parties with mostly martials that don't do much more than hit things, and the Medium would have been SO GOOD to have, simply to cover as many bases as humanly possible in a single character.
Don't get me wrong. I find the Medium extremely mediocre in general, and I'd love to see it buffed. But it does have it's uses.
The problem is that the medium DOESN'T cover many bases. It covers 1 base a day.
Inquisitor, oracle, etc. Those cover many bases at once. Like you even said, an actual cleric or inquisitor would be better than the heirophant spirit. And they could also cover the Face skills too easily. That gives healing, damage, and face, all in once character always active. Instead of the medium being healing 1 day, damage the next, and skills the one after.
What I hear in your story is the same I hear from core rogue people, "The rogue is great and good, in a party with a 12 str fighter the rogue shines" because an even better fit would shine even more.
I'm not particularly interested in the best fit for the job. If I was, I'd only play spellcasters. As it is, all I really want is for a character to feel like it can contribute to a group. Medium... actually has a hard time getting there, but I feel the more holes a group has, the better it feels.
Like, I have a group that contains a Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Cavalier. They're amazing. But they could probably use a guy with both Arcane and Divine spells. They're level 2, so a Mystic Theurge isn't a great solution. Medium would fit in pretty well into that party. I feel like lv 1 Wizard/Cleric multiclass would still be "better", but there's still solid reasons to play the Medium. (Like, I hate playing low level spellcasting multiclasses. Medium just *feels* better and accomplishes similar things.)
As far as covering 1 base a day... it sucks. But in a lot of situations, you DO have an idea of what you need, or can get one, assuming you have a scout or information gatherer. And being an on-demand scout is one of the things the Medium can do. I don't like the playstyle. At all. I hate 15 minute adventure days, and the Medium really promotes them. But I know from experience that the drawback can be worked around, provided the GM doesn't throw constant time limits at the players.
For the record, "The worse the party is the better it shines" is a horrible niche for a class, and Medium is my least favorite class in the game. I'm definitely damning with faint praise here. But it can be functional. There's even a few cases where I might even want to play one, if for some reason I'm not digging the flavor of the other, better options.
The problem is that the medium DOESN'T cover many bases. It covers 1 base a day.
That is definitely true for a standard Medium. A Spirit Dancer or Rivethun Channeler can cover multiple bases in a single day, but only while spending Spirit Dance rounds -- which means that most of the time they can't cover any role too well.
Still, I could see this class being useful for PFS or other campaigns where you never know from one session to the next which party roles will be covered at all by the other players. The Medium is a very strong example of "jack of all trades, master of none".
I'm not particularly interested in the best fit for the job. If I was, I'd only play spellcasters. As it is, all I really want is for a character to feel like it can contribute to a group. Medium... actually has a hard time getting there, but I feel the more holes a group has, the better it feels.
Like, I have a group that contains a Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Cavalier. They're amazing. But they could probably use a guy with both Arcane and Divine spells. They're level 2, so a Mystic Theurge isn't a great solution. Medium would fit in pretty well into that party. I feel like lv 1 Wizard/Cleric multiclass would still be "better", but there's still solid reasons to play the Medium. (Like, I hate playing low level spellcasting multiclasses. Medium just *feels* better and accomplishes similar things.)
As far as covering 1 base a day... it sucks. But in a lot of situations, you DO have an idea of what you need, or can get one, assuming you have a scout or information gatherer. And being an on-demand scout is one of the things the Medium can do. I don't like the playstyle. At all. I hate 15 minute adventure days, and the Medium really promotes them. But I know from experience that the drawback can be worked around, provided the GM doesn't throw constant time limits at the players.
For the record, "The worse the party is the better it shines" is a horrible niche for a class, and Medium is my least favorite class in the game. I'm definitely damning with faint praise here. But it can be functional. There's even a few cases where I might even want to play one, if for some reason I'm not digging the flavor of the other, better options.
If you want an arcane/divine mix there are now a dozen archetype/class options to accomplish that. There's no reason to play MT because these solo classes get a better deal. And the medium having cleric 1 day and arcane the next means you're lacking arcane 1 day and cleric the next. Meaning it only kinda fills 1 of the 2 missing roles.
The problem with a role per day is if you know today is a skills day and channel trickster, there's still probably going to be some fighting or something else needing to be done on that primary skills day.
So the medium only works well if you have information that tomorrow is going to be only one thing and nothing else for it and that the stuff changes greatly day by day.